Need 69 BTHP load for AR

Jason280 · April 19, 2002, 03:01 PM

I need a recommendation on a good load for a 69gr BTHP Matchking out of a 16" AR. Thanks!

Steve Smith · April 19, 2002, 03:41 PM

I don't know about the 16" thing, so no promises. I've used up to 24.5 grains of RL15 with a 69 gr SMK and a 20" barrel with great success.

Swamp Yankee · April 19, 2002, 06:11 PM

Great minds think alike.

My standard load for the 69 gr. SMK is 24.7 grains of Reloder 15 using Remington 7-1/2 primers. These loads are great out of my H-Bar Elite. Have only shot them once from my Bushmaster V-Match carbine but IIRC was able to get 1-1/2 inch groups at 100 yards without working to hard.
Take Care

Steve Smith · April 19, 2002, 07:00 PM

Yes, Rem 7 1/2 primers are good. AVOID Win primers with this load. You'll pierce them to no end.

That load should get you <MOA with a good barrel. I have fired that load into 1.25" 15 shot groups at 200 yards.

EchoFiveMike · April 20, 2002, 12:22 AM

24.0-25.0 is a wimp load for a 68-69 gn bullet. I use 24.5 with the 75gn Hornady and use win primers and have never had any problems ever. I use 24.5 with Sierra 80's and Hornady 75 A-max's and have never had any problems. Basically, with RL15, you're going to run out of case space before you really run into major pressure problems that are not directly related to seating depth/leade issues. IOW the bullet jump to the leade is causing presure fluctuations. Happened with brother's AR. Load at 2.400 worked fine in father's and my rifle, popped primers in brother's. Seated to 2.380, no problems in any rifles, cases last 8 firings or more. So in summary. 24.0, total wimp load. 24.5, still tame. Should go to 25.0gn at 2.260 OAL with no problems, but try 24.5 and see how it groups first. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Steve Smith · April 20, 2002, 12:59 PM

I'm not talking about "popping" primers, I'm talking about piercing them. There is a huge difference. The new Winchester primers will pierce with that load. I'm not the only one with that problem. Close to the entire internet Highpower community has had the same problem.

I also use 24.5 for 77gr SMK and 80 gr SMK loads. The 77 has the highest pressure of all of them.

EchoFiveMike · April 20, 2002, 10:56 PM

That's because the 77 has a long ass bearing surface(IMO it looks like a brick), and you're seating it to mag length. I don't use the 77 because I don't like it(can't you tell

I prefer the 75gn Hornady. To each his own

For the 69, he should have zero problems. I used to use W748 and had 69's doing better than 3030fps from a 20" barrel with zero problems and 100-7x accuracy at 300yds. Primer piercing(in the center of the cup, anyways) has almost always been a firing pin thing IME, but whatever works for you. I go through probably 5000 rds per year for myself, my father and brother, plus load over 8K for the state junior program and have never had a problem.

A lot of people in the HP community spend too much time screwing with their loads(and other things), and not enough time on the gun IMO. I shoot 480-485 average and I have not changed my load from 24.5 RL15 and 75gn Hornady BTHP's (80gn Sierras for 6) since 1997. Seems to work for me. YMMV. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

addecus · April 23, 2002, 02:30 AM

an accurate load that is easy on primers in my gun.

Steve Smith · April 23, 2002, 09:55 AM

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but neither am I, including "screwing with loads." What primers are you using? Its not a firing pin issue. Winchester changed their cups from the old silver cups to the new gold colored ones. The gold ones pierce easily. If you don't believe me (you obviously don't) do a search over on AR15.com for pierced primers. You'll see what I mean. I'm not the only one with the problem.

BTW, I know exactly why 77's have higher pressures, but thanks for the lesson, Teach. When you get up in the morning for a match and you already have 15 mph winds, you tend to use every advantage you can get...that includes using 77's rather than 69's. There's certainly nothing wrong with the 75 either. Just because I like one and you like the other doesn't make either of us wrong.

EchoFiveMike · April 23, 2002, 10:58 AM

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but neither am I, including "screwing with loads."<<<<<

I never said you were. I was taking your point on "other AR users" and making a comment based on my experience. Around here, a lot of shooters do "screw with their loads" and add all kinds of crap to their rifles, instead of going out and shooting. Happily, this isn't a sport where you can buy better scores(for the most part).

>>> What primers are you using?<<<

WSR, both the old silver ones, and their new off gold colored ones, never a problem. R-P brass, some LC97, not sure what the problem is

I'm not going to complain that I'm not getting pierced primers. Did have some problems with WSR's in my 9x23, but that was both old silver primers and new gold primers. Switching Ti firing pin back to steel solved the problem.

>>>>Its not a firing pin issue. Winchester changed their cups from the old silver cups to the new gold colored ones. The gold ones pierce easily. If you don't believe me (you obviously don't) do a search over on AR15.com for pierced primers. You'll see what I mean. I'm not the only one with the problem.<<<<

OK, I've never had a problem. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

>>>>BTW, I know exactly why 77's have higher pressures, but thanks for the lesson, Teach. <<<<

Didn't really seem to think you wouldn't, was just saying so to say so. Kinda like commenting on the weather. I use 75's, and they seem to have a shorter bearing surface than the 77, so I'm probably working with lower pressures than you are with the 77's.

>>>>When you get up in the morning for a match and you already have 15 mph winds, you tend to use every advantage you can get...that includes using 77's rather than 69's. <<<<<

Yeah, getting out of the hut at Perry and seeing junior shooters blow by is kinda demoralizing

>>>>Just because I like one and you like the other doesn't make either of us wrong.<<<<

Never said it was. Good shooting. S/F...Ken M

Steve Smith · April 23, 2002, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the reply. Truce?

"Happily, this isn't a sport where you can buy better scores"

Thank GOD!!!! Service Rifle is definitely where its at!

The Ti firing pin is, as you probably figured out, a real liability. Apparently it has the habit of melting (maybe the wrong word) is there is a pierced primer. Boy, that would suck in a rapid!

I'm glad to hear you're not having problems with the piercing. You're rare, from what I can tell. I had problems with it at 23.5 gr of RL15, so I switched to the Rem 7 1/2 primer and I had no problems after that. With the Win, I pierced about 50%, so that was no good. Many others have had the same problem and cured it with the same treatment that I did. In the future, if you do start having this problem, at lest you know that there's a precidence for it, and you know the cure.

I am using LC brass, with the primer pockets swaged (from RVOW). When I take it from the box they sent me I run them on my RCBS case prep center to true the primer pockets and deburr the flash holes, chamfer and deburr necks. Then I use that stuff for shortline and reduced couse matches. After its gone though my gun once, I run them though my Bartelsman trimmer (similar to a Gracey but with better trimmer heads and a case holder build to my rifle's chamber dimensions. After that, the ones that actually get trimmed go into one pile, while the others go into the other. The ones that get trimmed are then weighed to find 600 yard cases. There are some that don't get trimmed, and they go to the shortline/reduced stuff. It sa lot of work, but its fun, too.

What surprises me is the amount of variance that you can get from trimmed cases from RVOW. They sell a good product at a great price, but how on earth does their trimmer vary so much? I get about a .020" swing at times on their trim length. Needless to say, I'm trying my best to get the variables down.

Hold 'em hard.

EchoFiveMike · April 23, 2002, 02:06 PM

Truce? Sure. Titanium is very refractory, and the hot gases erode the metal they come into contact with. Same reason lasers cut Ti very well, there is very little conduction of the heat throughout the part. Friend of mine had a Ti firing pin splinter during the NTI a couple years ago. I didn't see a difference in scores, so I don't sweat it and stick with steel.

I don't do all that prep work for the short lines, just decrimp, size, trim and load. I use R-P cases for the 6, they get the flash hole deburred, then the normal program and that's about it. When I get doubtful about the brass, it gets used for prarie dogs. My rifle is kinda weird, when the cases fail, the case is just like a 9x23 case in length. I guess if I was really cheap I could trim them and shoot them in my Colt 1911. S/F...Ken M

Cheapo · April 24, 2002, 04:54 PM

What do y'all recommend for charge weight using WW 748 and LC brass?

Steve Smith · April 24, 2002, 08:33 PM

Echo, the reason I do all that is twofold: #1, its the only chance I get to do that without the primer in th epocket (comes from RVOW deprimed) and #2 it gets me started toward finding good 600 yard cases.

Cheapo, no tengo.

EchoFiveMike · April 25, 2002, 01:06 AM

Searching my archives (it's been a longtime since I used the 69BTHP/W748 load), the load was 26.5gn W748/69SMK/RP case OAL of 2.260. It was clocking an honest 2960fps from my Kreiger AR 20" and is .5gns hotter than Sierra lists as max. It's lots faster than Sierra claims in their manual. Using LC brass, I'd start at 25.0 seated to 2.260 and go from there. Book max for Sierra is 26.0gns for 2800fps. Case capacity is less for GI brass, but 1.0gn in a 223 is 5% right there and I'll bet that Sierra used GI cases or IMI because of liability. Either way, you should have zero problems. I've seen some INSANE loads shot from the AR with nothing worse than popped primers or primer pocket gas cutting where the case and primer come together.

Steve, I was pondering this WSR problem, and I'm betting it's a hardness issue with the primer cups. When they plated the cup, I'll bet there is some sort of hardening going on that the Winchester people didn't plan on(same way that nickel brass tends to split). The firing pin weakens the cup by creating cracks instead of a nice smooth cavity and the cup fails. That's my guess anyways. FWIW. S/F..Ken M

Cheapo · April 25, 2002, 03:21 AM

Thanks, E5M.

I thought the WSR primer problems were with the new unplated versions. Guess I better go hit AR15.com, eh?

The higher "sensitivity" feature of brass WW primers from the "new surface treatment" has always looked to me like an incidental benefit of going cheap by dumping the nickel plating. But if the materials change has improved the cup failure situation, I'm all for it.

It's just that it was SO NICE to always be able to tell which ones were my reloads because of the nickle primers! Back when I was buying new brass (loaded ammo!), almost all of my factory loads had brass, not nickle, primers.

Guess it makes a difference after all.

Steve Smith · April 25, 2002, 09:57 AM

Ken, you could be right. I don't know of anyone who's taken the time to find out whether they're brittle or thin...not a big deal, we all switched to Remington 7 1/2 and the problem went away.

Cheapo, the new (gold/copper) ones are the problem. The old nickel ones were ok. Then again, Ken's not having the problem...maybe his hammer spring is not so strong? My rifle pierced those primers when it was brand new, and could still do it, but its only a year old.

April 20, 2002, 12:59 PM	#6
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I'm not talking about "popping" primers, I'm talking about piercing them. There is a huge difference. The new Winchester primers will pierce with that load. I'm not the only one with that problem. Close to the entire internet Highpower community has had the same problem. I also use 24.5 for 77gr SMK and 80 gr SMK loads. The 77 has the highest pressure of all of them. Last edited by Steve Smith; April 20, 2002 at 05:42 PM.

April 23, 2002, 02:30 AM	#8
addecus Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: USA Posts: 87	try 25 grains of varget an accurate load that is easy on primers in my gun.

April 19, 2002, 03:01 PM	#1
Jason280 Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2002 Location: Athens,Georgia Posts: 355	Need 69 BTHP load for AR I need a recommendation on a good load for a 69gr BTHP Matchking out of a 16" AR. Thanks!

April 19, 2002, 03:41 PM	#2
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I don't know about the 16" thing, so no promises. I've used up to 24.5 grains of RL15 with a 69 gr SMK and a 20" barrel with great success.

April 19, 2002, 06:11 PM	#3
Swamp Yankee Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2000 Location: Northeastern Ct. Posts: 1,019	Great minds think alike. My standard load for the 69 gr. SMK is 24.7 grains of Reloder 15 using Remington 7-1/2 primers. These loads are great out of my H-Bar Elite. Have only shot them once from my Bushmaster V-Match carbine but IIRC was able to get 1-1/2 inch groups at 100 yards without working to hard. Take Care

April 19, 2002, 07:00 PM	#4
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Yes, Rem 7 1/2 primers are good. AVOID Win primers with this load. You'll pierce them to no end. That load should get you <MOA with a good barrel. I have fired that load into 1.25" 15 shot groups at 200 yards.

April 20, 2002, 12:22 AM	#5
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	24.0-25.0 is a wimp load for a 68-69 gn bullet. I use 24.5 with the 75gn Hornady and use win primers and have never had any problems ever. I use 24.5 with Sierra 80's and Hornady 75 A-max's and have never had any problems. Basically, with RL15, you're going to run out of case space before you really run into major pressure problems that are not directly related to seating depth/leade issues. IOW the bullet jump to the leade is causing presure fluctuations. Happened with brother's AR. Load at 2.400 worked fine in father's and my rifle, popped primers in brother's. Seated to 2.380, no problems in any rifles, cases last 8 firings or more. So in summary. 24.0, total wimp load. 24.5, still tame. Should go to 25.0gn at 2.260 OAL with no problems, but try 24.5 and see how it groups first. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

April 20, 2002, 10:56 PM	#7
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	That's because the 77 has a long ass bearing surface(IMO it looks like a brick), and you're seating it to mag length. I don't use the 77 because I don't like it(can't you tell I prefer the 75gn Hornady. To each his own For the 69, he should have zero problems. I used to use W748 and had 69's doing better than 3030fps from a 20" barrel with zero problems and 100-7x accuracy at 300yds. Primer piercing(in the center of the cup, anyways) has almost always been a firing pin thing IME, but whatever works for you. I go through probably 5000 rds per year for myself, my father and brother, plus load over 8K for the state junior program and have never had a problem. A lot of people in the HP community spend too much time screwing with their loads(and other things), and not enough time on the gun IMO. I shoot 480-485 average and I have not changed my load from 24.5 RL15 and 75gn Hornady BTHP's (80gn Sierras for 6) since 1997. Seems to work for me. YMMV. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

April 23, 2002, 09:55 AM	#9
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but neither am I, including "screwing with loads." What primers are you using? Its not a firing pin issue. Winchester changed their cups from the old silver cups to the new gold colored ones. The gold ones pierce easily. If you don't believe me (you obviously don't) do a search over on AR15.com for pierced primers. You'll see what I mean. I'm not the only one with the problem. BTW, I know exactly why 77's have higher pressures, but thanks for the lesson, Teach. When you get up in the morning for a match and you already have 15 mph winds, you tend to use every advantage you can get...that includes using 77's rather than 69's. There's certainly nothing wrong with the 75 either. Just because I like one and you like the other doesn't make either of us wrong.

April 23, 2002, 10:58 AM	#10
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but neither am I, including "screwing with loads."<<<<< I never said you were. I was taking your point on "other AR users" and making a comment based on my experience. Around here, a lot of shooters do "screw with their loads" and add all kinds of crap to their rifles, instead of going out and shooting. Happily, this isn't a sport where you can buy better scores(for the most part). >>> What primers are you using?<<< WSR, both the old silver ones, and their new off gold colored ones, never a problem. R-P brass, some LC97, not sure what the problem is I'm not going to complain that I'm not getting pierced primers. Did have some problems with WSR's in my 9x23, but that was both old silver primers and new gold primers. Switching Ti firing pin back to steel solved the problem. >>>>Its not a firing pin issue. Winchester changed their cups from the old silver cups to the new gold colored ones. The gold ones pierce easily. If you don't believe me (you obviously don't) do a search over on AR15.com for pierced primers. You'll see what I mean. I'm not the only one with the problem.<<<< OK, I've never had a problem. There is more than one way to skin a cat. >>>>BTW, I know exactly why 77's have higher pressures, but thanks for the lesson, Teach. <<<< Didn't really seem to think you wouldn't, was just saying so to say so. Kinda like commenting on the weather. I use 75's, and they seem to have a shorter bearing surface than the 77, so I'm probably working with lower pressures than you are with the 77's. >>>>When you get up in the morning for a match and you already have 15 mph winds, you tend to use every advantage you can get...that includes using 77's rather than 69's. <<<<< Yeah, getting out of the hut at Perry and seeing junior shooters blow by is kinda demoralizing >>>>Just because I like one and you like the other doesn't make either of us wrong.<<<< Never said it was. Good shooting. S/F...Ken M

April 23, 2002, 11:32 AM	#11
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Thanks for the reply. Truce? "Happily, this isn't a sport where you can buy better scores" Thank GOD!!!! Service Rifle is definitely where its at! The Ti firing pin is, as you probably figured out, a real liability. Apparently it has the habit of melting (maybe the wrong word) is there is a pierced primer. Boy, that would suck in a rapid! I'm glad to hear you're not having problems with the piercing. You're rare, from what I can tell. I had problems with it at 23.5 gr of RL15, so I switched to the Rem 7 1/2 primer and I had no problems after that. With the Win, I pierced about 50%, so that was no good. Many others have had the same problem and cured it with the same treatment that I did. In the future, if you do start having this problem, at lest you know that there's a precidence for it, and you know the cure. I am using LC brass, with the primer pockets swaged (from RVOW). When I take it from the box they sent me I run them on my RCBS case prep center to true the primer pockets and deburr the flash holes, chamfer and deburr necks. Then I use that stuff for shortline and reduced couse matches. After its gone though my gun once, I run them though my Bartelsman trimmer (similar to a Gracey but with better trimmer heads and a case holder build to my rifle's chamber dimensions. After that, the ones that actually get trimmed go into one pile, while the others go into the other. The ones that get trimmed are then weighed to find 600 yard cases. There are some that don't get trimmed, and they go to the shortline/reduced stuff. It sa lot of work, but its fun, too. What surprises me is the amount of variance that you can get from trimmed cases from RVOW. They sell a good product at a great price, but how on earth does their trimmer vary so much? I get about a .020" swing at times on their trim length. Needless to say, I'm trying my best to get the variables down. Hold 'em hard.

April 23, 2002, 02:06 PM	#12
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	Truce? Sure. Titanium is very refractory, and the hot gases erode the metal they come into contact with. Same reason lasers cut Ti very well, there is very little conduction of the heat throughout the part. Friend of mine had a Ti firing pin splinter during the NTI a couple years ago. I didn't see a difference in scores, so I don't sweat it and stick with steel. I don't do all that prep work for the short lines, just decrimp, size, trim and load. I use R-P cases for the 6, they get the flash hole deburred, then the normal program and that's about it. When I get doubtful about the brass, it gets used for prarie dogs. My rifle is kinda weird, when the cases fail, the case is just like a 9x23 case in length. I guess if I was really cheap I could trim them and shoot them in my Colt 1911. S/F...Ken M

April 24, 2002, 04:54 PM	#13
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	What do y'all recommend for charge weight using WW 748 and LC brass?

April 24, 2002, 08:33 PM	#14
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Echo, the reason I do all that is twofold: #1, its the only chance I get to do that without the primer in th epocket (comes from RVOW deprimed) and #2 it gets me started toward finding good 600 yard cases. Cheapo, no tengo.

April 25, 2002, 01:06 AM	#15
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	Searching my archives (it's been a longtime since I used the 69BTHP/W748 load), the load was 26.5gn W748/69SMK/RP case OAL of 2.260. It was clocking an honest 2960fps from my Kreiger AR 20" and is .5gns hotter than Sierra lists as max. It's lots faster than Sierra claims in their manual. Using LC brass, I'd start at 25.0 seated to 2.260 and go from there. Book max for Sierra is 26.0gns for 2800fps. Case capacity is less for GI brass, but 1.0gn in a 223 is 5% right there and I'll bet that Sierra used GI cases or IMI because of liability. Either way, you should have zero problems. I've seen some INSANE loads shot from the AR with nothing worse than popped primers or primer pocket gas cutting where the case and primer come together. Steve, I was pondering this WSR problem, and I'm betting it's a hardness issue with the primer cups. When they plated the cup, I'll bet there is some sort of hardening going on that the Winchester people didn't plan on(same way that nickel brass tends to split). The firing pin weakens the cup by creating cracks instead of a nice smooth cavity and the cup fails. That's my guess anyways. FWIW. S/F..Ken M

April 25, 2002, 03:21 AM	#16
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Thanks, E5M. I thought the WSR primer problems were with the new unplated versions. Guess I better go hit AR15.com, eh? The higher "sensitivity" feature of brass WW primers from the "new surface treatment" has always looked to me like an incidental benefit of going cheap by dumping the nickel plating. But if the materials change has improved the cup failure situation, I'm all for it. It's just that it was SO NICE to always be able to tell which ones were my reloads because of the nickle primers! Back when I was buying new brass (loaded ammo!), almost all of my factory loads had brass, not nickle, primers. Guess it makes a difference after all.

April 25, 2002, 09:57 AM	#17
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Ken, you could be right. I don't know of anyone who's taken the time to find out whether they're brittle or thin...not a big deal, we all switched to Remington 7 1/2 and the problem went away. Cheapo, the new (gold/copper) ones are the problem. The old nickel ones were ok. Then again, Ken's not having the problem...maybe his hammer spring is not so strong? My rifle pierced those primers when it was brand new, and could still do it, but its only a year old.