More on M1 handloads

Khornet · February 21, 2002, 02:35 PM

If you recall, I miked my 147 gr FMJBT bulk bullets and found most were below .308 dia. , usually .307.
I fired two 10-rd groups from a sandbag, one with bullets selected to be .3075-.308, the other randomly selected bullets, loads otherwise identical: 748/49.5/F215 primer. No crimp.

Selected bullets grouped 4". Unslelected grouped 7". Both loads show lots of soot on the brass.

So now I think I got poor bullets. Live and learn. Next, I try crimping. Is crimping standard for M1? I'v never crimped any of my centerfire rifle loads, but they've all been for bolts or single shots. And if I crimp, I figure I should reduce the load a couple grains. Agree?

Steve Smith · February 21, 2002, 03:10 PM

You should try it with a better bullet.

As far as crimping is concerned, mil rounds probably came crimped, but they shouldn't HAVE to be crimped. You could try it, but I don't think it'll help at all. If you do, drop the load by a grain and try it though a chrono.

C.R.Sam · February 21, 2002, 03:42 PM

Lot of soot on the brass. Either your loads are too light or not enough neck tension on the bullets. Or both.

Sounds like the bullet is getting into the bore before the pressure rises enough to seal the case to the chamber.

Sam

Khornet · February 22, 2002, 07:53 AM

You're both right. Last night I encountered bullets from this batch of 147 FMJBT Winchester bullets which would actually slip down the neck and fall into the case! What a waste of cash. I loaded 10 rd of the wrong powder in 2 lots, one these bulk bullets and one with my favorite Hornady 150 gr spitzer hunting bullet, and when I was pulling the bullets with a kinetic puller I found the Win. bullets came free with one good rap but the Hornadys required several hard whacks.

I see Widener's has IMI 30 cal bulk bullets.........maybe I'll try them next.

Jamie Young · February 24, 2002, 12:22 AM

Those IMI bullets are excellent. I use those for Target shooting out of My Model 70 30/06. I can hit Sporting Clays at 300yds with thise things

Khornet · February 24, 2002, 01:54 PM

I ordered 250 of 'em yesterday. Meanwhile, I have a bunch of WRA 1942 M2 Ball which I haven't used because I don't want to bother with the extra cleaning because of the corrosive primer. So I pulled bullets on 10 rounds........every bullet is exactly .308, and that from a time when our backs were to the wall and we were cranking out munitions furiously! And the brass looks great too. I saved the powder, looks like 4895. Charges were 53.5-54.5 gr........seems high to me. Anyway I loaded with noncorrosive primers and 46 gr of this old GI powder. Here goes!

Frank Iacono · February 25, 2002, 11:10 PM

If your loading for a Garand, try using an M2 bullet. This is a mil spec GI bullet. It has the correct canulure placement for correct OAL. This will solve alot of feeding problems. The 147gr is made for the 7.62 Nato round. (Im sure you know this) Also, choosing a powder to yield the correct pressure to operate the gas system is most important. I think you should taper crimp all your 30-06 Garand rounds. Taper crimping is less critical if you have slightly different case lengths. Wideners had pulled M2 150gr bullets made for the Garand at 46/k. An M2 bullet has a steel jacket and copper plating. The 147 FN bullet has a full copper jacket. I have fired about 500 of the M2 bullets through my Garand without problems.

Khornet · February 26, 2002, 07:15 AM

Thanks, Frank. Order placed. I wasn't sure that the 147 was NATO but I know now. Dunno what I'm gonna do with 300 useless bullets; I dont think they are useful in any rifle, they're so out of spec.

swampyMO · February 26, 2002, 09:47 AM

Guys,

The 147 gr. FN-FAL bullet that Wideners sells is a Nato pill that works just dandy in my M1's.

I seat them a little long, with the cannelure fully exposed, no crimp, over 4895 powder. They feed perfectly and accuracy is really quite good, better by a little bit than M2 Ball (in my M1's at least).

I have one Garand that for some reason HATES Sierra Match Kings. Can't get groups better than 2-1/2 to 3 inch (and average MUCH worse) at 100 yds. It shoots these FN-FAL bullets at less than 2 inches all day long. My other M1's shoot these just about as accurately as any other handloaded bullet too...

NOTE: I shoot all groups prone, slung up, iron sights, and with 8 rounds.

The FN-FAL bullet is fmj-bt, lead core, steel jacket, copper wash, just like the M2 ball round. They seem to be really consistent. I've shot a couple thousand of them to date, all from M1's, and really like them.

At $68.00 for 1000 pcs, delivered, you can't beat it.

Just my opinion,
Swampy

Khornet · February 26, 2002, 01:05 PM

.........so I was dumb enough to get stuck with lousy bullets. At least I can hope it's not the rifle. Some of these pills mike as small as .306!! Winchester, no less.

This site is so helpful. I only seem to be able to get to the range once a week these days; with 500 bad bullets, several brands of magnum and standard primers, two or more kinds of brass, three different powders, I might never have found the pet load. Thanks to all! You'll hear me crowing soon, I hope.

Khornet

Cheapo · February 27, 2002, 02:16 AM

Hey, that copper-plated steel jacket on M2 Ball projectiles is news to me. Sure you're not referencing some oddball foreign stuff you picked up at a gun show in a USGI ammo can?

I don't think we used steel jackets in M2 even at the height of WWII. My sources indicate that in many operations, they issued more 168-gr AP than M2.

And since the M1 will feed an empty case with no problem, channelure placement and a shorter OAL from loading M80 Ball in .30-06 could hardly be a problem. Just don't load M2s in 7.62mm NATO and use that channelure. Longer OAL truly is a problem in that application.

As far as the undersized bullets go, doesn't Corbin make some sorta "bump" tool you can use to essentially swage copper-jacketed bullets back up to size? That would make more sense than sizing them down to 7mm...

Khornet · February 27, 2002, 07:36 AM

I've thought about sizing up, amy do so some time.........meanwhile the seller wrote me with a full refund. Good business practice. They also said true dia. for .308 is .307-.3075; but when I mike Sierra 168 gr match bullets or my favorite '06 hunting bullet, a Hornady 150 gr spire point, they all come out .308 with occasional .3075 at the minimum. What do I know? Targets don't lie (but liars do target).

Frank Iacono · February 27, 2002, 01:51 PM

I too was skeptical when hearing M2 bullets were steel jacketed, but it appears to be true. The M2 bullets were ordered from Wideners and were advertised as 150gr. GI M2 ball pulled from 30-06 cartridges. The bullets arrived and weighed 150gr. They had an open base showing a lead core. They would stick to a magnet and had remnants of tar sealer on the portion of the bullet covered by the case neck. They are not 163 gr AP which are longer, have a copper plug in the base and usually have a black tip. I've also heard as you did that the bulk of GI 30-06 ammo issued in WW 2 was AP. I am going to try to do some more reasearch on the 150gr M2.

Frank Iacono · February 27, 2002, 07:29 PM

Ok, I received confirmation from a very knowledgable member (at another forum) regarding steel jacketed, lead core M2 bullets :
"Yes Frank, ALL M2 ball rounds as far back as I can find them to test and that's into the 1930's are copper plated steel jackets over lead core. The last batch of 1969 vintage 06 I had also would stick a magnet."

Khornet · February 28, 2002, 07:47 AM

I have pulled the bullets from some 1942 WRA M2 ball rounds I had lying around. Flat base with exposed lead, no copper plug. Haven't checked with a magnet.

swampyMO · February 28, 2002, 08:26 AM

Frank Iacano wrote:

"ALL M2 ball rounds as far back as I can find them to test and that's into the 1930's are copper plated steel jackets over lead core. The last batch of 1969 vintage 06 I had also would stick a magnet."

This statement, along with all those beautiful M1's coming out of CMP with pristine bores & muzzles, should give lie to the misplaced belief many have that copper washed steel jacket slugs wear out a barrel faster than do gilding metal jackets.

I won't even bother to mention the testing done by Springfield Armory and Winchester during WWII to determine if there was any barrel wear difference between gilding metal and copper washed steel. After firing umpteen hundred thousand rounds and wearing out numerous barrels, they determined that there was NO appreciable wear difference between the two.

Swampy

Cheapo · February 28, 2002, 04:20 PM

The key to the copper-wash/plated steel jackets being A-OK! for barrel life is the difference in hardness between the barrel steel and the jacket steel.

All steel-jacket stuff I've ever encountered was very mild steel. Engraves to the rifling quite well, much of the copper remains as a sort of metallic "lube", and the difference in hardness makes any steel directly on the bore quite "slippery" (as far as direct metal-bearing surfaces go) on the trip to the muzzle.

I'm going to check a few WWII M2 Ball and some '60s vintage LC M2 Ball tomorrow and see what's been in this area's supply pipeline.

mbott · February 28, 2002, 08:38 PM

About the only M2 ball that I've come across that wasn't magnetic was the Greek (HXP) stuff available a couple of years ago. I've got about 3 cans of it left.

--
Mike

Khornet · March 1, 2002, 07:43 AM

The Lake City 1966 M2 ball I have is non-magnetic. The 1942 WRA M2 ball is all magnetic.

Maybe the reutation of WWII ball ammo as being AP is really from it all being steel jacketed.

swampyMO · March 1, 2002, 10:02 AM

Khornet,

M2 ball pills are steel jacket with a copper wash.

All the Lake City '06 M2 I've shot, along with the Talon '06 (which is re-milled Lake City) have had steel jacket with copper wash.

My current stock of LC 69 M2 Ball is all steel jacket.

If you have LC 66 M2 Ball that is NOT steel jacket, it is the very FIRST LC M2 Ball I've heard of that was not steel jacket.

Better check again. Make sure that magnet really works....

Swampy

Cheapo · March 1, 2002, 03:22 PM

BoyoBoyoBoy!

Retraction! I'm WRONG!!!

The magnet stuck to DEN 44 (WWII), LC 69, both in USGI M2 Ball.

Even LC53 .30 Carbine is steel jacket.

With all those rounds I've fired out in the rocks as the sun was setting, I never noticed any steel-jacket sparks like I've seen with 7.62x39.

Oh yeah, my WinBulk 147gr M80s are also steel.

SoHowCome I don't remember seeing any references to steel jackets in all those G.I. ammo specs I've read over the years?

MutterMutterMutter....gottacheckthat M72 and M118...Could the M118 be the only stuff without iron in the jacket??? BoyDoIFeelDumb.

Khornet · March 1, 2002, 04:59 PM

Honest, these are LC66 from sealed boxes, and they don't stick to no stinking magnet. The '42 WRA also from sealed boxes sticks so well it will suspend the entire round horizontally by the 1/3 of the bullet above the ogive. They just ain't steel jacketed. Maybe I have a collector's item here?

The LC66 boxes are plain brown cardboard. The '42 boxes are the kind with the broad red stripe. A forgery? a plot? Is ol Cheapo playin' games with my head? Magnet doesn't stick to IT.

Frank Iacono · March 1, 2002, 07:39 PM

I also would like to make a retraction. I thought I was testing 147gr FN bullets, which I stated were full copper jackets. They were actually (20 year old) Hornady 150 gr FMJBT. The 147gr FN has a steel jacket, lead core, the Hornady has the full copper jacket and lead core. Sorry
Cheapo asked:"With all those rounds I've fired out in the rocks as the sun was setting, I never noticed any steel-jacket sparks like I've seen with 7.62x39."
There is a difference in the amount of iron (or alloy) in the two jackets. True, a magnet will stick to both, but put a Wolf brand 7.62x39 123gr "bimetal" bullet (pulled of course) to a bench grinder and the sparks will fly. Try this with an M2 bullet and no sparks are seen. This would explain your observation.

Khornet · March 2, 2002, 09:02 AM

Swampy,

Lake City box says;

20 Cartridges
Caliber .30
Ball M2
Lot LC 42184
Lake City Army Ammunition Plant

And it doesn't stick to my magnet. Headstamp is LC 66

What up?

Khornet

swampyMO · March 2, 2002, 11:08 AM

Khornet....

To quote my old dear departed Dad..

"Well I'll be a monkey's uncle"....

Dunno what happened in 1966 to make the Army try gilding metal, but must have been some reason at the time. Obviously, they must not have liked it cuz' they went back to steel jackets later. I KNOW that all LC 69 I've shot has been steel....

I've got a case of M2 coming from CMP. This latest bunch is supposed to be LC-66. I'm curious to see if it shoots any better than the other lots I've tried.

Swampy

February 21, 2002, 02:35 PM	#1
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	More on M1 handloads If you recall, I miked my 147 gr FMJBT bulk bullets and found most were below .308 dia. , usually .307. I fired two 10-rd groups from a sandbag, one with bullets selected to be .3075-.308, the other randomly selected bullets, loads otherwise identical: 748/49.5/F215 primer. No crimp. Selected bullets grouped 4". Unslelected grouped 7". Both loads show lots of soot on the brass. So now I think I got poor bullets. Live and learn. Next, I try crimping. Is crimping standard for M1? I'v never crimped any of my centerfire rifle loads, but they've all been for bolts or single shots. And if I crimp, I figure I should reduce the load a couple grains. Agree?

February 22, 2002, 07:53 AM	#4
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	I think You're both right. Last night I encountered bullets from this batch of 147 FMJBT Winchester bullets which would actually slip down the neck and fall into the case! What a waste of cash. I loaded 10 rd of the wrong powder in 2 lots, one these bulk bullets and one with my favorite Hornady 150 gr spitzer hunting bullet, and when I was pulling the bullets with a kinetic puller I found the Win. bullets came free with one good rap but the Hornadys required several hard whacks. I see Widener's has IMI 30 cal bulk bullets.........maybe I'll try them next.

February 24, 2002, 01:54 PM	#6
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	Cool. I ordered 250 of 'em yesterday. Meanwhile, I have a bunch of WRA 1942 M2 Ball which I haven't used because I don't want to bother with the extra cleaning because of the corrosive primer. So I pulled bullets on 10 rounds........every bullet is exactly .308, and that from a time when our backs were to the wall and we were cranking out munitions furiously! And the brass looks great too. I saved the powder, looks like 4895. Charges were 53.5-54.5 gr........seems high to me. Anyway I loaded with noncorrosive primers and 46 gr of this old GI powder. Here goes!

February 25, 2002, 11:10 PM	#7
Frank Iacono Member Join Date: February 25, 2002 Location: vermont Posts: 18	M2 bullet If your loading for a Garand, try using an M2 bullet. This is a mil spec GI bullet. It has the correct canulure placement for correct OAL. This will solve alot of feeding problems. The 147gr is made for the 7.62 Nato round. (Im sure you know this) Also, choosing a powder to yield the correct pressure to operate the gas system is most important. I think you should taper crimp all your 30-06 Garand rounds. Taper crimping is less critical if you have slightly different case lengths. Wideners had pulled M2 150gr bullets made for the Garand at 46/k. An M2 bullet has a steel jacket and copper plating. The 147 FN bullet has a full copper jacket. I have fired about 500 of the M2 bullets through my Garand without problems.

February 26, 2002, 07:15 AM	#8
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	M2 bullet Thanks, Frank. Order placed. I wasn't sure that the 147 was NATO but I know now. Dunno what I'm gonna do with 300 useless bullets; I dont think they are useful in any rifle, they're so out of spec.

February 21, 2002, 03:10 PM	#2
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	You should try it with a better bullet. As far as crimping is concerned, mil rounds probably came crimped, but they shouldn't HAVE to be crimped. You could try it, but I don't think it'll help at all. If you do, drop the load by a grain and try it though a chrono.

February 21, 2002, 03:42 PM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Lot of soot on the brass. Either your loads are too light or not enough neck tension on the bullets. Or both. Sounds like the bullet is getting into the bore before the pressure rises enough to seal the case to the chamber. Sam

February 24, 2002, 12:22 AM	#5
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Those IMI bullets are excellent. I use those for Target shooting out of My Model 70 30/06. I can hit Sporting Clays at 300yds with thise things

February 26, 2002, 09:47 AM	#9
swampyMO Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: Missouri Posts: 327	Guys, The 147 gr. FN-FAL bullet that Wideners sells is a Nato pill that works just dandy in my M1's. I seat them a little long, with the cannelure fully exposed, no crimp, over 4895 powder. They feed perfectly and accuracy is really quite good, better by a little bit than M2 Ball (in my M1's at least). I have one Garand that for some reason HATES Sierra Match Kings. Can't get groups better than 2-1/2 to 3 inch (and average MUCH worse) at 100 yds. It shoots these FN-FAL bullets at less than 2 inches all day long. My other M1's shoot these just about as accurately as any other handloaded bullet too... NOTE: I shoot all groups prone, slung up, iron sights, and with 8 rounds. The FN-FAL bullet is fmj-bt, lead core, steel jacket, copper wash, just like the M2 ball round. They seem to be really consistent. I've shot a couple thousand of them to date, all from M1's, and really like them. At $68.00 for 1000 pcs, delivered, you can't beat it. Just my opinion, Swampy

February 26, 2002, 01:05 PM	#10
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	OK, OK .........so I was dumb enough to get stuck with lousy bullets. At least I can hope it's not the rifle. Some of these pills mike as small as .306!! Winchester, no less. This site is so helpful. I only seem to be able to get to the range once a week these days; with 500 bad bullets, several brands of magnum and standard primers, two or more kinds of brass, three different powders, I might never have found the pet load. Thanks to all! You'll hear me crowing soon, I hope. Khornet

February 27, 2002, 02:16 AM	#11
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Hey, that copper-plated steel jacket on M2 Ball projectiles is news to me. Sure you're not referencing some oddball foreign stuff you picked up at a gun show in a USGI ammo can? I don't think we used steel jackets in M2 even at the height of WWII. My sources indicate that in many operations, they issued more 168-gr AP than M2. And since the M1 will feed an empty case with no problem, channelure placement and a shorter OAL from loading M80 Ball in .30-06 could hardly be a problem. Just don't load M2s in 7.62mm NATO and use that channelure. Longer OAL truly is a problem in that application. As far as the undersized bullets go, doesn't Corbin make some sorta "bump" tool you can use to essentially swage copper-jacketed bullets back up to size? That would make more sense than sizing them down to 7mm...

February 27, 2002, 07:36 AM	#12
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	Cheapo, I've thought about sizing up, amy do so some time.........meanwhile the seller wrote me with a full refund. Good business practice. They also said true dia. for .308 is .307-.3075; but when I mike Sierra 168 gr match bullets or my favorite '06 hunting bullet, a Hornady 150 gr spire point, they all come out .308 with occasional .3075 at the minimum. What do I know? Targets don't lie (but liars do target).

February 27, 2002, 01:51 PM	#13
Frank Iacono Member Join Date: February 25, 2002 Location: vermont Posts: 18	Cheapo I too was skeptical when hearing M2 bullets were steel jacketed, but it appears to be true. The M2 bullets were ordered from Wideners and were advertised as 150gr. GI M2 ball pulled from 30-06 cartridges. The bullets arrived and weighed 150gr. They had an open base showing a lead core. They would stick to a magnet and had remnants of tar sealer on the portion of the bullet covered by the case neck. They are not 163 gr AP which are longer, have a copper plug in the base and usually have a black tip. I've also heard as you did that the bulk of GI 30-06 ammo issued in WW 2 was AP. I am going to try to do some more reasearch on the 150gr M2.

February 27, 2002, 07:29 PM	#14
Frank Iacono Member Join Date: February 25, 2002 Location: vermont Posts: 18	Ok, I received confirmation from a very knowledgable member (at another forum) regarding steel jacketed, lead core M2 bullets : "Yes Frank, ALL M2 ball rounds as far back as I can find them to test and that's into the 1930's are copper plated steel jackets over lead core. The last batch of 1969 vintage 06 I had also would stick a magnet."

February 28, 2002, 07:47 AM	#15
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	WWII M2 I have pulled the bullets from some 1942 WRA M2 ball rounds I had lying around. Flat base with exposed lead, no copper plug. Haven't checked with a magnet.

February 28, 2002, 08:26 AM	#16
swampyMO Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: Missouri Posts: 327	Frank Iacano wrote: "ALL M2 ball rounds as far back as I can find them to test and that's into the 1930's are copper plated steel jackets over lead core. The last batch of 1969 vintage 06 I had also would stick a magnet." This statement, along with all those beautiful M1's coming out of CMP with pristine bores & muzzles, should give lie to the misplaced belief many have that copper washed steel jacket slugs wear out a barrel faster than do gilding metal jackets. I won't even bother to mention the testing done by Springfield Armory and Winchester during WWII to determine if there was any barrel wear difference between gilding metal and copper washed steel. After firing umpteen hundred thousand rounds and wearing out numerous barrels, they determined that there was NO appreciable wear difference between the two. Swampy

February 28, 2002, 04:20 PM	#17
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	The key to the copper-wash/plated steel jackets being A-OK! for barrel life is the difference in hardness between the barrel steel and the jacket steel. All steel-jacket stuff I've ever encountered was very mild steel. Engraves to the rifling quite well, much of the copper remains as a sort of metallic "lube", and the difference in hardness makes any steel directly on the bore quite "slippery" (as far as direct metal-bearing surfaces go) on the trip to the muzzle. I'm going to check a few WWII M2 Ball and some '60s vintage LC M2 Ball tomorrow and see what's been in this area's supply pipeline.

February 28, 2002, 08:38 PM	#18
mbott Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 1999 Location: Westerville, Ohio Posts: 640	About the only M2 ball that I've come across that wasn't magnetic was the Greek (HXP) stuff available a couple of years ago. I've got about 3 cans of it left. -- Mike

March 1, 2002, 07:43 AM	#19
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	Steel case The Lake City 1966 M2 ball I have is non-magnetic. The 1942 WRA M2 ball is all magnetic. Maybe the reutation of WWII ball ammo as being AP is really from it all being steel jacketed.

March 1, 2002, 10:02 AM	#20
swampyMO Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: Missouri Posts: 327	Khornet, M2 ball pills are steel jacket with a copper wash. All the Lake City '06 M2 I've shot, along with the Talon '06 (which is re-milled Lake City) have had steel jacket with copper wash. My current stock of LC 69 M2 Ball is all steel jacket. If you have LC 66 M2 Ball that is NOT steel jacket, it is the very FIRST LC M2 Ball I've heard of that was not steel jacket. Better check again. Make sure that magnet really works.... Swampy

March 1, 2002, 03:22 PM	#21
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	BoyoBoyoBoy! Retraction! I'm WRONG!!! The magnet stuck to DEN 44 (WWII), LC 69, both in USGI M2 Ball. Even LC53 .30 Carbine is steel jacket. With all those rounds I've fired out in the rocks as the sun was setting, I never noticed any steel-jacket sparks like I've seen with 7.62x39. Oh yeah, my WinBulk 147gr M80s are also steel. SoHowCome I don't remember seeing any references to steel jackets in all those G.I. ammo specs I've read over the years? MutterMutterMutter....gottacheckthat M72 and M118...Could the M118 be the only stuff without iron in the jacket??? BoyDoIFeelDumb.

March 1, 2002, 04:59 PM	#22
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	Steel case Honest, these are LC66 from sealed boxes, and they don't stick to no stinking magnet. The '42 WRA also from sealed boxes sticks so well it will suspend the entire round horizontally by the 1/3 of the bullet above the ogive. They just ain't steel jacketed. Maybe I have a collector's item here? The LC66 boxes are plain brown cardboard. The '42 boxes are the kind with the broad red stripe. A forgery? a plot? Is ol Cheapo playin' games with my head? Magnet doesn't stick to IT.

March 1, 2002, 07:39 PM	#23
Frank Iacono Member Join Date: February 25, 2002 Location: vermont Posts: 18	I also would like to make a retraction. I thought I was testing 147gr FN bullets, which I stated were full copper jackets. They were actually (20 year old) Hornady 150 gr FMJBT. The 147gr FN has a steel jacket, lead core, the Hornady has the full copper jacket and lead core. Sorry Cheapo asked:"With all those rounds I've fired out in the rocks as the sun was setting, I never noticed any steel-jacket sparks like I've seen with 7.62x39." There is a difference in the amount of iron (or alloy) in the two jackets. True, a magnet will stick to both, but put a Wolf brand 7.62x39 123gr "bimetal" bullet (pulled of course) to a bench grinder and the sparks will fly. Try this with an M2 bullet and no sparks are seen. This would explain your observation.

March 2, 2002, 09:02 AM	#24
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	M2 ball Swampy, Lake City box says; 20 Cartridges Caliber .30 Ball M2 Lot LC 42184 Lake City Army Ammunition Plant And it doesn't stick to my magnet. Headstamp is LC 66 What up? Khornet

March 2, 2002, 11:08 AM	#25
swampyMO Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: Missouri Posts: 327	Khornet.... To quote my old dear departed Dad.. "Well I'll be a monkey's uncle".... Dunno what happened in 1966 to make the Army try gilding metal, but must have been some reason at the time. Obviously, they must not have liked it cuz' they went back to steel jackets later. I KNOW that all LC 69 I've shot has been steel.... I've got a case of M2 coming from CMP. This latest bunch is supposed to be LC-66. I'm curious to see if it shoots any better than the other lots I've tried. Swampy