.257 Weatherby Revisited

[stagpanther]

I bought a barrel from X caliber last year and thinking I would try some new modern bullets I ordered a 1:7 twist 28" and mounted on a magnum long action that can go all the way up to CIP 3.85. I got waylaid by other projects and travel and basically forgot about it. Today I pulled it out of the safe and took a closer look--of all Roy's designs (one of his first) it has one of the longest freebores I've ever seen. So I got to thinking--why not try mounting a new high BC/SD bullet long beyond the normal COL specs? H1000 has always been a great powder in bigger magnums--first time I've tried it in something of this capacity, and I just picked a charge weight number that should get me to around 3200 fps (69.8). Unfortunately my labradar battery was dead so I couldn't get numbers--but it is a nice soft-recoil combo which I think holds promise. I'll be working more on it.

[ligonierbill]

Those are some long bullets! Since you have a barrel that will stabilize them and plenty of case capacity to drive them, it should be fun. I love seeing an 80 year old round get some exercise.

[stagpanther]

Those are some long bullets! Since you have a barrel that will stabilize them and plenty of case capacity to drive them, it should be fun. I love seeing an 80 year old round get some exercise.

The irony is that in some ways the .257 may in fact be Weatherby's most advanced cartridge! With the new bullets and powders the performance numbers of these super-high BC/SD bullets out to long range (1,000 yds+) is [potentially] phenomenal and gives some of the latest wonder cartridges a run for their money on paper. It delivers that at a perfect soft stay-on-target recoil. With the possible exception of fast throat erosion--I believe this kind of cartridge would be a possible serious match gun where speed between shots isn't a premium.

I was going to go shoot some more loads today to get some chrono data-- but it's raining so I had to satisfy myself with a quick 5 shots off the hood of my pickup truck at 153 yards again; the first clean/cold bore shot went high, but the next 4 grouped a hair over .5 MOA.

[ligonierbill]

Sadly, I doubt we will see a revival of the quarterbore. The 6 and 6.5mm rounds bracket it and are seeing most of the recent development. I say sadly because 257 bore led the revolution, still controversial, of small bore high velocity killing power. It started (forget the 22 High Power) commercially with Charles Newton's 250-3000 in 1915, refined by Ned Roberts in 1934 (though his wildcat predates it), and ultimately reached outrageous levels in Roy Weatherby's laser (1944?). Of course, Newton started the whole thing with the 256 Newton in 1912, which became the 25-06, but it wasn't commercialized until 1969. The 25-06 remains moderately popular, so maybe there's hope someone will market a modestly priced rifle with a fast twist barrel. Or maybe I'll build one (go away Satan!)

[stagpanther]

Sadly, I doubt we will see a revival of the quarterbore. The 6 and 6.5mm rounds bracket it and are seeing most of the recent development. I say sadly because 257 bore led the revolution, still controversial, of small bore high velocity killing power. It started (forget the 22 High Power) commercially with Charles Newton's 250-3000 in 1915, refined by Ned Roberts in 1934 (though his wildcat predates it), and ultimately reached outrageous levels in Roy Weatherby's laser (1944?). Of course, Newton started the whole thing with the 256 Newton in 1912, which became the 25-06, but it wasn't commercialized until 1969. The 25-06 remains moderately popular, so maybe there's hope someone will market a modestly priced rifle with a fast twist barrel. Or maybe I'll build one (go away Satan!)

I'm not so sure about that--the long range performance of the new 25's actually pull away from the 6 and 6.5--flatter with less drift and elavation loss and better energy retention in some of the newer cartridges that can use the faster twist and newer bullets that weren't around until just the last few years. I've built a 25 creedmoor and blackjack 25 PRC; the 25 creed is a great one for over-all performance across a wide range of bullets including the new ones, the 25 PRC is more in the case capacity range of the weatherby but I've never been able to get a consistent performing combination with it--and it is a bore roaster. The .257 weatherby just works--and very well--the best of the higher power 25's I tried so far with the updated bullets and powders.

PS--I have a 25-06 and it is a classic cartridge--but it will never work with the newer bullets IMO as is commonly chambered--but the weatherby can with a faster twist (mostly a result of the longish freebore) and is a mild recoiler.

[taylorce1]

The .257 cal is seeing a bit of resurgence. Hornady is commercializing the .25 Creedmoor, just think of it as a .250 Savage AI. I have buddies itching and building rifles like .250-3000, .25 Bobcat, .25X47 Lapua, .257 Roberts AI, .257 Sig Fury, .257 Catbird, .25-7PRC, and .25 Nosler. All were built with fast enough twists to stabilize the current high BC bullets offered today.

The two I'm interested in most are the .250-3000 my friend built on an old Model 54 Winchester. He wanted a magazine that allowed COAL for the 131 Sierra/Blackjack bullet, and a classic cartridge for that old rifle. He won't quite get .25 Creedmoor speeds but I'm definitely interested in the results he'll achieve.

The other cartridge is the .25 Sig Fury that another friend is working on. He says it's basically a .25 Souper +P as he's running it in the hybrid Fury brass and getting 3020 fps with 134 gr ELD-M and over 3100 fps with 110 gr ELD-X. He says the 134 gr bullet impacts with authority at 900+ yds on steel, and hit indicators aren't needed as you can hear the impacts even with ear-pro.

[ligonierbill]

Guess my doubts were misplaced. Happy to hear it.

[stagpanther]

The .257 cal is seeing a bit of resurgence. Hornady is commercializing the .25 Creedmoor, just think of it as a .250 Savage AI. I have buddies itching and building rifles like .250-3000, .25 Bobcat, .25X47 Lapua, .257 Roberts AI, .257 Sig Fury, .257 Catbird, .25-7PRC, and .25 Nosler. All were built with fast enough twists to stabilize the current high BC bullets offered today.

The two I'm interested in most are the .250-3000 my friend built on an old Model 54 Winchester. He wanted a magazine that allowed COAL for the 131 Sierra/Blackjack bullet, and a classic cartridge for that old rifle. He won't quite get .25 Creedmoor speeds but I'm definitely interested in the results he'll achieve.

The other cartridge is the .25 Sig Fury that another friend is working on. He says it's basically a .25 Souper +P as he's running it in the hybrid Fury brass and getting 3020 fps with 134 gr ELD-M and over 3100 fps with 110 gr ELD-X. He says the 134 gr bullet impacts with authority at 900+ yds on steel, and hit indicators aren't needed as you can hear the impacts even with ear-pro.

Nice; but I bet none of them can do this.

Today was the first time I was able to shoot the new stuff without rain or fog and also the first time I got labradar to get some numbers. I loaded an extra fouler cartridge to fire first off the cold clean bore--the subsequent 5 shot group was quite impressive to me. The speed, energy etc would be impressive in an even bigger bullet/cartridge IMO. Problem is, the one pound of H1000 is just about gone after shooting just the first half of the ladder tests. With my Mark 5 HD I could see I pulled a couple of shots as they broke--so I think I should be able to do better.

[stagpanther]

I really need the MDT MRS stock for other big magnums--the original stock I modified to take CIP 3.85 magazines for the Weatherby magnums (they had to be RUM-width) was a Boyds--but for some reason actions that I dropped into it didn't shoot as well as when attached to the MDT chassis. I took a closer look and eventually found that some poor finishing of the bedding epoxy job I did was putting asymmetric torque on the action, so I spent time grinding and sanding away what I believe was causing the problem. I'm also once again running low on H1000, so I'm switching back to VV560 which I had very good initial testing results with. Hope to get good results--if it ever stops raining here.

[GeauxTide]

Just never enthralled with the 25 caliber. My 260 and 6.5-06 shoot 120s fine; however, the 140s are freight trains.

[stagpanther]

Just never enthralled with the 25 caliber. My 260 and 6.5-06 shoot 120s fine; however, the 140s are freight trains.

To each their own, as they say.

[stagpanther]

Finally got to test the action bedded in my Boyd's conglomeration and it wasn't raining or blowing like a hurricane--though still fairly windy. And for the first time this year I was able to shoot in the quarry area and stretch the distance out a bit, so I started at 200 yds. I loaded 6 shots intending to shoot the 1st shot as a cold bore fouler after cleaning, as it turned out it was the middle impct of the group--the one to the side was me--without it the group would have been just over .6 MOA. Important thing is that I think the bedding work I did might have solved the problem of wandering shots I had. The MDT chassis is still the better-balanced, more stable option, but this is plenty good enough as an alternative for me.

[stagpanther]

Got very lucky today--I got a small window of opportunity to set up at the longest distance I could get and still monitor truck traffic; 363 yards. Shot 6 cartridges of the same 134 ELDMs powered by H1000 which fly a bit over 3200 fps.

The shot numbers are not the actual order I took them in--at that distance even with my MK 5 HD I couldn't see the impacts on the target; I don't know if shot 6 was the first cold/clean bore shot or not. Without shot 6, the other 5 shots grouped at .183 MOA.

Other things I really like about this "new age" .257 weatherby; Keeping the shots about 3 minutes apart the barrel stayed relatively cool (for a Weatherby). The brass is Weatherby tough--so far I haven't needed to do anything special with it, it does not flow, grow, migrate or need shoulder bumping; one pass through the sizer and it's the same as the factory new stuff. The felt recoil is very reasonable for a cartridge of this power; I'd put it at about the same as my blackjack 25 PRC--maybe even a bit less. My shoulder doesn't feel it after a session--unlike the bigger Weatherby cartridges (which I generally don't shoot extended sessions with mostly because they will end up roasting the throat).

[stagpanther]

Went back today to try again--almost calm--but they are back to work quarrying with front-loaders. Drat.

[EchoFalcon23]

That sounds like a fun experiment — what bullet are you thinking of trying seated out long? 220gr class or heavier? I’d be curious how much jump you’re working with in that freebore.

[stagpanther]

That sounds like a fun experiment — what bullet are you thinking of trying seated out long? 220gr class or heavier? I’d be curious how much jump you’re working with in that freebore.

This is the .257 wby mag--you might be thinking of a bigger cartridge--I'm not aware of any .257 projectiles going beyond 140 grs. For practical purposes, the way I load is dictated by the limitations of the magazine and the generous neck length; so I aim for roughly the shank getting a good support length into the neck and going out to near max COL that the magazine will allow--which is around 3.74. I then played around with the seating depth (aka "jump to lands") to see what seems to get the best results. The hornady 134 gr bullets are the only bullets I've found a "sweet spot" for so far, they seem to just naturally balance and fly well. I have several other very high BC .257 bullets but so far have not been able to find a sweet spot for them--though they do group sub MOA often--but not "way sub MOA.".

In essence--if you can put a fast twist barrel and long COL magazine together in a rifle, using the new modern powders and bullets you are creating a basically new cartridge out of the original .257 wby mag--without the hassle of doing anything special to the parent case or chamber reaming. It's only in the last few years that the industry has taken a serious look at modernizing the projectile offerings for .257.

[Jim Watson]

There was a guy who had a rifle chambered for .300 Weatherby but without freebore. He was after more powder volume than .300 Win Mag but little jump to the rifling for heavy boattails at Long Range.

An Intrepid Gunziner did the same to a .458 Win Mag for light bullets at high velocity for the caliber.

A guy here traded his .25-06 for a .257 Weatherby and was disappointed. The then "guarantee" of 1 1/2 MOA was not as good as what his old gun had been shooting.

[stagpanther]

There was a guy who had a rifle chambered for .300 Weatherby but without freebore. He was after more powder volume than .300 Win Mag but little jump to the rifling for heavy boattails at Long Range.

An Intrepid Gunziner did the same to a .458 Win Mag for light bullets at high velocity for the caliber.

A guy here traded his .25-06 for a .257 Weatherby and was disappointed. The then "guarantee" of 1 1/2 MOA was not as good as what his old gun had been shooting.

The 300 wby--which I also shoot frequently--is a completely different animal IMO from the .257--and frankly i would not do the same thing with it as what I'm doing with the .257. The 25-06 and 257 wby were designed at a time when the bigger and higher SD bullets were not even considered a possibility or needed, so they both were barreled and chambered to dimensions that precluded the kind of performance projectiles that are now available. Many cartridges are now being adapted to drive the newer bullets--IMHO it just happens to be a fortuitous quirk in Roy's original design that it readily adapts to the newer bullets with a very wide range of choices that don't require any special modifications. It's one of those things that's hard to explain unless you try it for yourself. I did some googling and found that there are at least a few others who are starting to cotton on to the same potential.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

There was a guy who had a rifle chambered for .300 Weatherby but without freebore. He was after more powder volume than .300 Win Mag but little jump to the rifling for heavy boattails at Long Range.

An Intrepid Gunziner did the same to a .458 Win Mag for light bullets at high velocity for the caliber.

A guy here traded his .25-06 for a .257 Weatherby and was disappointed. The then "guarantee" of 1 1/2 MOA was not as good as what his old gun had been shooting.

No free bore? So the leade starts right at the step? Where did he get a reamer like that?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[stagpanther]

No free bore? So the leade starts right at the step? Where did he get a reamer like that?

Shooters (especially match ones) will sometimes order a custom reamer sized specifically for a particular cartridge/bullet combination to optimize the chamber and freebore for the characteristics of that one combination sometimes with a "no jump" fit. The Robinette 30 BR I have is a good example of that. It can yield dramatic improvements in consistency--but by the same token can limit the range of choices for experimenting. As far as I know, most top tier barrel makers will chamber the barrels you order from them to specific freebore and neck diameter characteristics for a unique cartridge configuration that you supply to them--though if they don't have the reamer to match you might have to pay for it yourself.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Shooters (especially match ones) will sometimes order a custom reamer sized specifically for a particular cartridge/bullet combination to optimize the chamber and freebore for the characteristics of that one combination sometimes with a "no jump" fit. The Robinette 30 BR I have is a good example of that. It can yield dramatic improvements in consistency--but by the same token can limit the range of choices for experimenting. As far as I know, most top tier barrel makers will chamber the barrels you order from them to specific freebore and neck diameter characteristics for a unique cartridge configuration that you supply to them--though if they don't have the reamer to match you might have to pay for it yourself.

Oh I see. No free bore here means zero bullet jump, not that the chamber throat has no free bore before leade starts. Make sense now. Thanks.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[stagpanther]

Oh I see. No free bore here means zero bullet jump, not that the chamber throat has no free bore before leade starts. Make sense now. Thanks.

Something like that--though the exact definition of freebore, leade etc may vary a bit depending on who you ask. The thing about Roy's designs is that he specifically endeavored to make "fastest/flattest" shooting cartridges in their class--part of that design philosophy was increasing the freebore and bullet jump measurements to help mitigate the power of his charges thereby reducing the peak pressure somewhat. His famous dual radius shoulders theoretically help in that regard as well. I've never seen definitive proof of that--but neither have I seen definitive proof refuting it, either. Weatherby cartridges were not designed to be match-grade consistent--they are intended to drop your game most reliably compared to other cartridges--which from the hunters I know that use them they will do that as long as you have enough skills to get the reticle on target. A very long mean point blank range also takes a lot of guess work out of calculating bullet drop for average skills hunters or those who simply don't want to bother learning them. I'm not advocating that--just saying it does happen.

[Jim Watson]

When I was coming up “freebore” was at least 1 1/2 calibers long.

[stagpanther]

The .257 cal is seeing a bit of resurgence. Hornady is commercializing the .25 Creedmoor, just think of it as a .250 Savage AI. I have buddies itching and building rifles like .250-3000, .25 Bobcat, .25X47 Lapua, .257 Roberts AI, .257 Sig Fury, .257 Catbird, .25-7PRC, and .25 Nosler. All were built with fast enough twists to stabilize the current high BC bullets offered today.

Having shot quite a bit on my 25 PRC lately--I realize I'm due to apologize to Taylor for my somewhat snarky comment earlier about those 25's not performing at the level my "super" 257 Weatherby can. My 25 PRC (same as a 25 7PRC except mine is reamed with a Blackjack reamer) Can in fact get similar weight bullets to similar velocities as my "super" Weatherby--and with less powder to boot. I'm not sure that either one has an edge over the other in accuracy/consistency or range; so far they both have performed excellently (limited mostly by the trigger-puller and where I can shoot). The 25 PRC did pretty well out to 350 yds+ staying around MOA--so I'm going to see how the Weatherby does with comparable ammo.