Hand over scope to steady shot

[stagpanther]

There was a thread recently in which the topic of using a hand over the scope came up and I (stupidly) suggested that I thought the practice would likely hurt the consistency of the rifle by putting asymmetric pressure on the scope.

Today while shooting a 280AI rifle I was getting a unusually wide groupings (3" at 153 yds). The front rest point was pretty near the center of balance point of the rifle--I tried the hand over the scope to help counteract any possible pitching movement and the groupings immediately shrank dramatically. I'm now wondering how many tens of thousands of shots I've wasted before trying this.

[taylorce1]

It's a pretty controversial topic, and you'll get a lot of opinions on it. I know Mark Bansner recommends this technique while shooting light rifles for groups. I posted a link to his video in the other topic. I think Mr Bansner knows a thing or two about building and shooting light rifles, and I wouldn't discount his knowledge on the subject.

[mehavey]

Better technique for light rifles is a solid/consistent forearm hold.

[tangolima]

Is 280 AI a stout round? Depending on the rifle setup, the recoil force can rotate the muzzle up before the bullet exits the bore. If that happens, it is generally not good for business. Looks like you might have that going on.

Putting hand on the scope adds downward torque on the rifle, so it helps. You just need to keep the rifle's forearm in contact with the front rest till the bullet exits the muzzle. There are few other methods doing the similar. Preloading bipod, adding lead weight to the forearm, installing softer recoil pad etc.

I occasionally put hands on the scope to help ridding canting with heavy and tall scope.

-TL

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[Pumpkin]

I would think if your support arm is nice and steady you would have much more leverage than holding the forearm.
Question, why hold either when shooting from a bench? Unless you are shooting a cannon.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

I would think if your support arm is nice and steady you would have much more leverage than holding the forearm.

Question, why hold either when shooting from a bench? Unless you are shooting a cannon.

To pull the forearm down on the rest perhaps. It works the same as pushing it down from the top. Indeed it has more leverage (torque) than pressing on the scope.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

If you shoot rifles where the front rest is near the fulcrum point--for example an MDT chassis up against the barrier stop--then the hand over the scope definitely helps IMO. Think about leverage angles--if your forend hold is way out there--which do you think is going to make it easier to balance when the front contact rest is close to the fulcrum point?

[tangolima]

Good point. Pressures on the rest contact point doesn't change the setup's balance.

-TL

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[mehavey]

I assume this is all predicated on the rifle resting on a bag or bar somewhere ahead of the action.

- Opt-1: Freehand on the scope
- Opt-2: Freehand holding the forearm in contact w/ the rest.

This should be a simple experiment.

I'll try it tomorrow w/ a Marlin 45-70.
Film at Eleven.

[stagpanther]

I'll try it tomorrow w/ a Marlin 45-70.

Lots of those on the PRS circuit.

[stagpanther]

Here's the group I shot after a 3" group at 153 yards--only difference hand on the scope.

[mehavey]

Lots of those on the PRS circuit.

Point taken ()
I'll drag out the Swift.




(I'd use the AR, but that would be cheating)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=17

.

[tangolima]

Good shooting, Panther.

I was doing barrel tuning (a poor man's version by monkeying with flash hider) on my AR in 6mm ARC, also at 150yd. After 20 rounds, I settled down with one setting and got 0.9moa 6-shot. Not as good but close.

75gr going around 2900fps. Not much of recoil. I will try putting my support in the rifle, scope or not, anyway to see whether it makes any difference.

-TL



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[stagpanther]

Good shooting, Panther.

I was doing barrel tuning (a poor man's version by monkeying with flash hider) on my AR in 6mm ARC, also at 150yd. After 20 rounds, I settle down with one setting and got 0.9moa 6-shot. Not as good but close.

75gr going around 2900fps. Not much of recoil. I will try putting my support in the rifle, scope or not, anyway to see whether it makes any difference.

Thanks--But not much of a comparison--I have a custom-made 26" hand-lapped SS match-chambered fast-twist barrel, so I expect to get tight groups with it (assuming I do my part and feed it good ammo). I built a 6mm ARC AR myself and those teency weensie little groups everyone else seems to be getting with the ARC have so far eluded me. You've done better than I have with the ARC.

[stagpanther]

I think maybe there's a little fog about what I said about the scope over hand thing. I'm talking mostly about long barrel rifle set up principally for precision shooting. Balance and weight distribution are very important and have a big effect on consistency. I have quite a few rifles that sit on short gen 1 MDT LSS chassis; no matter what you rest the forend on you're going to have that point close to the fulcrum point for the whole rifle.

[tangolima]

I am quite happy with consistent sub-moa, 150yd with some varying cross wind. By far this is the most successful part of my AR experiment. Will bring it out to 300yd in the valley of crazy winds next.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

What bullet and powder?

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

What bullet and powder?

Bullet is Speer 75gr varmint. Powder is A2230. Brass is Hornady 6.5mm Grendel converted.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Your velocities look oddly low--should be able to get way beyond that I would think?

[tangolima]

Hornady published 2 load tables; gas gun and non gas gun. I use gas gun table for AR, which has lower pressure. It maxes out at 2950 fps. My load is a few percent below max for better group. I think it is not too much out of whack.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Ah yes--I keep thinking for some reason it was faster than that. I spent a lot of time with it and never did get "BR-like" results with it and just shelved it.

[stagpanther]

Pretty interesting--I'm looking at Hodgdon's listings for the ARC and my QL says many of them are over-loaded and over-pressured. I assume they used a bolt gun to test; I know there is some difference between the two but it's pretty rare that a company lists a different load set for gas and non-gas guns--more complications to add to the mix.

[tangolima]

Different load tables for different type of guns is not unheard of. Hornady has .223 and 5.56, .30-06 and service rifle etc. Hodgedon's online load center doesn't do as good a job. They just pool everything together. At the end of day, we the handloaders are the one who should make the wise decisions.

Sub-moa of my load may come with a bit of conflation. It hoovers around 1moa, mostly slightly under. It will spill over 1 if I slack off just a tiny bit. That's 1.5" at 150yd, not quite stacking over each kind of groups as in BR competitions.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Agreed--BUT a cartridge doesn't make up its mind whether or not it's going to shoot differently between a gas gun and a bolt gun if they are both made to SAAMI standards; might be some minor variation if there is a marked difference in chamber or freebore dimensions--or simply what the gun is rated to.

Just out of curiosity, I picked a random load of ARC cartridges in a combination I'd never used before (BLC-2 and 95 gr TMK) and went out for an "old times sake" test firing. And I used the "hand over scope technique" for the first time with my 20" monster barrel AR15.

First few shots were to foul the barrel and find the range, last time I shot the gun was over 200 yds. Then I shot this at 153 yds.



I've never got anywhere close to this previously; just one random load I picked off the top of my head (QL says it's near max but Hodgdon says it's much lower). The shot at the far upper right I took with exactly the same position and pull of the trigger--except no pressure on the top of the scope. Maybe the subsequent shots might have landed just as well next to it had I taken them without the hand on the scope thing--but here's the thing; the 4 shot group landed exactly where I did the did the elevation and windage adjustments to adjust on the SWFA scope--and of course the POA.

Might be mumbo jumbo voodoo--but that's how I'm shooting from now on off a rest (unless it's a heavy long-barreled rifle with a rigid long stock).

[taylorce1]

I say keep doing what works, scopes aren't that fragile.
Resting a hand on top isn't going to hurt anything.