Bullets for hunting

[Nathan]

What bullets do you use for hunting….especially a little longer range? I’m thinking about going all copper…

[nhyrum]

I've used both nosler long range accubonds and cutting edge MTH's. For monolithic bullets a really like the cutting edge bullets, but they do carry a hefty price tag, but boy do they shoot! Last I checked most the guys shooting the king of two miles used their bullets. That being said, I've not shot any of the Barnes or Lehigh bullets, so I've got nothing to compare them to. The regular accubonds will also do just fine

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[blackhawk44]

What caliber? What's "a little longer range"?

[44 AMP]

Traditional "cup & core" and cast lead bullets have been working for me since I began using them in the early 70s.

Never lost a game animal or a varmint due to bullet failure.

Not saying better bullets don't work, only that my personal experience with "regular" bullets is that they did their job, IF I did mine properly.

[Shadow9mm]

What cartridge, what is long range for you, and what are you hunting? Need to know those things to answer your question

If your considering all copper I would look at Lehigh. Great performance. Low 1500fps opening speed on their controlled chaos line. Used to be an amazing deal. Then they got bought out by wilson combat.... prices went up, boxes went from 100 bullets to 50... but still not priced too crazy.

Sent this youtube channel some .308 152g lehigs to play with. They performed at just under 1500fps
https://youtu.be/cJ1acqSLms0

[bacardisteve]

Depends on the cartridge entirely. The 117gr hornady sst is great in a 257roberts but fail miserably when launched 3400fps from a 257 wby. Bonded and or mono bullets work best at high impact velocities. Cup and core and non bonded plastic tipped bullets seem to do better with impact speeds under 2900fps or so.

[44 AMP]

Depends on the cartridge entirely.

Not exactly. It's not the cartridge, it's the speed of the bullet. And while the cartridge does play a huge part in reaching a given speed, it is the speed (velocity) of the bullet and the bullet's construction (in all factors) that determine terminal performance.

Cup and core and non bonded plastic tipped bullets seem to do better with impact speeds under 2900fps or so.

Not disputing your observation, but I will add that it only applies in some situations. "Do better" at what? On what??

Controlled expansion and adequate penetration on big game? It's what a lot of people think of, but that's not what the OP asked. The OP is vague, asking only about "hunting" and not a specific type of hunting, and there is hunting that isn't big game hunting.

I've had completely successful bullet performance with cup and core bullets at impact speeds in the 3600-3800fs range. The bullets did exactly what they were built to do, expand instantly and completely fragmenting in an explosive manner.

While that's not desirable performance when shooting deer, it is exactly the perfect performance for shooting woodchucks.

Every bullet made to expand is made to expand a certain amount in a given range of velocity. Slower than design speed, expansion is less than design intent (down to no expansion at all if its too far below intended speed) and faster than designed speed does the opposite, resulting in overexpansion which MAY result in bullet "failure" for a specific task.

You have to match bullet construction (design) with velocity, and performance for a specific task.

Bullets designed for moderate or low speed performance can be seriously overdriven at higher speeds, resulting in "failure" to stay together.

Examples abound, one common one is some light (125gr) pistol JHPs optimized to expand well at pistol speeds, over expanding hugely when driven several hundred FPS faster from a carbine barrel.

You can get a similar result from shooting a .30-30 bullet at .300 Win Mag speed.

Another is driving a .45-70 bullet designed to expand at 1300fps at 1800fps. (or faster! ) at those speeds they work more like varmint bullets than controlled expansion big game bullets.

Its up to the shooter to match the right bullet, at the right speed to obtain the "right" performance for each different shooting situation. Not doing that properly isn't the fault of the bullet.

[Nathan]

What caliber? What's "a little longer range"?

300 Sherman….out to 600-700 yds for now

[BornFighting88]

Hornady ELD-X pills on my 300 WSM. Used to swear by soft lead point, but after the bullets I have been using have been exploding on impact on deer ribs. I kid you not…. Watched through the scope as a 150 yard shot led to a bullet shattering after it hit the deer. Still made an ethical kill, the trauma alone knocked the heffer over (her insides were goo).

I made the decision to go to plastic tipped rounds.

[GeauxTide]

I am a big fan of Hornady Interbond for my 7mmRM. The 139 and 154 shoot to the same POI. They are fantastic for less than perfect marksmanship. I mis-judged the down angle of a 150yd shot at a nice buck last year. the 154 hit low in the brisket and broke a front leg at the exit. His heart exploded and bottom of one lung mushed. He made it 100 yards and piled up. For 300+ yards, I'd be very comfortable with an ELD-X or SST. I once used a CUP and Core bullet in my 7mmRM for a 150 yard shot. Killed the deer, but the right ham was blown to the ground and blew all the guts out.

[totaldla]

Really? You're shooting that far? If so, bullet construction is the least of your variables to worry about.

I'm old school so I don't favor today's sniper wannabe hunting style. I'm also not impressed with pictures of pretty mushroomed bullets or numerically highest BC. That said, there are some bullet designs that extend the lower-end velocity for expansion - those little polymer tips.

I have never seen an animal lost because of "bullet failure" but I have seen lost animals due to bad shot placement. A fellow can't fix a bad shot with a better bullet, imo.

Hornady's cup and core bullets (Interlock) have never failed to put critters in the freezer for my family. And we've had nothing but good experience with Nosler Ballistic Tip. 270W and 308.

[44 AMP]

Put me in the old school that says that if you shoot a game animal at more than 300ish yards you should have to write yourself a letter, in triplicate, longhand (no keyboards, no carbon paper...) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.

[Pomeroy]

I wonder what bullet failure is and how it can be determined to have occurred if the animal is not recovered. If the animal is recovered, the bullet did not fail. If a hit animal escapes, did the bullet fail or did the hunter fail?

I have used regular old cup and core Hornady bullets for deer for decades with no complaints. I have also used Barnes quite a bit on deer and elk with every animal shot at being recovered very quickly.

[44 AMP]

Bullet "failure" isn't a failure to harvest the animal, its a failure to perform in the expected manner.

And, you're entirely right, if you get the game, the bullet did not fail, and if you don't get the game, you simply cannot know if it was the bullet or the shooter who failed.

[Pomeroy]

That works for me.

[kilotanker22]

I have personally been using the Hornady ELD Match bullet in both 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting. Shot whitetail from 75-300 yards and the bullet mushrooms, holds together, and penetrates perfectly. Does a ton of damage inside the chest cavity and I have had no meat loss. 1 shot kills on every animal I have shot with them. I do not subscribed that you need a thick heavily constructed bullet to kill medium game. In fact, I believe that Normal cup and core, and cup and core tipped bullets in medium to heavy weight for caliber are ideal.

[bacardisteve]

No experience with the 300 sherman but I have used the 30cal 200gr eldx to great effect on deer out to 500yds. Mostly shooting across hayfields filling crop damage tags. I handload them to 3150fps from a 300win. I have also used the 200gr accubond in a 300rum on elk and deer and it works quite well but is hard to find anymore.

[DPI7800]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Put me in the old school that says that if you shoot a game animal at more than 300ish yards you should have to write yourself a letter, in triplicate, longhand (no keyboards, no carbon paper...) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.

Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by DPI7800

Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.

Your arguing about people not wanting to learn? Why not learn to stalk in closer? Remove variables to guarantee you fill your tags. Your argument cuts both ways.

The other issue is animals are moving targets. The farther out you get the more flight time you have, giving your animal more chance to move, meaning you might not put the bullet where you wanted. Anything from a miss, to a wounding shot keeping you from filling your tag.

Wrong?

[jmr40]

Bullets almost never fail. They do exactly what they are designed to do virtually every time. The problem is when people choose the wrong bullet for the task they are trying to do. Bullets range from soft to hard and there are multiple variations between the 2 extremes.

Softer bullets expand rapidly. They may over expand and give poor penetration if used on larger game shot at close range. They work better on smallish, big game like deer, and since they expand rapidly are a better choice for longer range where bullet impact is slower. If used on bigger game and at closer ranges going to a heavier bullet will slow down impact speeds and improve penetration. Most soft bullets expand well with impact speeds between about 1800-2800 fps.

The bullets on the hard end of the spectrum will stay together and penetrate at any speed you can get from a rifle. But they need to impact at faster speeds or they don't expand at all. You can't shoot them too fast, impact speeds of 3500 fps won't hurt, but if impact speeds are under 2000-2200 fps expansion is poor and they act like FMJ.

It would be a good idea to look at a ballistics chart and look at the projected bullet speeds at various ranges. If using a soft 150 gr bullet it might be fine in a 308 at any range from the muzzle out to about 400 yards. But the same bullet fired from a 300 magnum will overexpand and perform poorly at ranges inside or about 150 yards. But it will retain the minimum 1800 fps at greater ranges.

The solid copper bullets are on the extreme hard end of the spectrum. They work great at close range. Even in cartridges normally considered borderline too small for the game hunted. But because they need to impact faster to expand aren't the best choice for long range hunting.

But you must 1st define long range. They will still retain 2000 fps out to ranges farther than most of us need to be shooting. Especially from magnum rifles.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by jmr40

Bullets almost never fail. They do exactly what they are designed to do virtually every time. The problem is when people choose the wrong bullet for the task they are trying to do. Bullets range from soft to hard and there are multiple variations between the 2 extremes.

Softer bullets expand rapidly. They may over expand and give poor penetration if used on larger game shot at close range. They work better on smallish, big game like deer, and since they expand rapidly are a better choice for longer range where bullet impact is slower. If used on bigger game and at closer ranges going to a heavier bullet will slow down impact speeds and improve penetration. Most soft bullets expand well with impact speeds between about 1800-2800 fps.

The bullets on the hard end of the spectrum will stay together and penetrate at any speed you can get from a rifle. But they need to impact at faster speeds or they don't expand at all. You can't shoot them too fast, impact speeds of 3500 fps won't hurt, but if impact speeds are under 2000-2200 fps expansion is poor and they act like FMJ.

It would be a good idea to look at a ballistics chart and look at the projected bullet speeds at various ranges. If using a soft 150 gr bullet it might be fine in a 308 at any range from the muzzle out to about 400 yards. But the same bullet fired from a 300 magnum will overexpand and perform poorly at ranges inside or about 150 yards. But it will retain the minimum 1800 fps at greater ranges.

The solid copper bullets are on the extreme hard end of the spectrum. They work great at close range. Even in cartridges normally considered borderline too small for the game hunted. But because they need to impact faster to expand aren't the best choice for long range hunting.

But you must 1st define long range. They will still retain 2000 fps out to ranges farther than most of us need to be shooting. Especially from magnum rifles.

Lehigh defense makes a bullet called controlled chaos. They claim a minimum opening velocity of 1500fps. Which i have seen tested with the 152g version. Video in post #5. They also make a 175g version.

The barnes lrx supposedly has an opening velocity of around 1600fps. But that was some googling, no direct from barnes.

[DPI7800]

Your arguing about people not wanting to learn? Why not learn to stalk in closer? Remove variables to guarantee you fill your tags. Your argument cuts both ways.

For me, there is no argument here, in my home state I only archery hunt. I am completely well versed and skilled in this.

The other issue is animals are moving targets. The farther out you get the more flight time you have, giving your animal more chance to move, meaning you might not put the bullet where you wanted. Anything from a miss, to a wounding shot keeping you from filling your tag.

Wow mind blowing! If only someone had explained this to me or had practical drills to practice this during the 250 plus hours of training my employer has sent me to.

[Shadow9mm]

DPI7800 Ok, but were not talking about you, or archery hunting . Were talking about taking a shot with a firearm on a game animal beyond 350yds, or in in relation to the OP 600-700 yds.

you did not invalidate either of my arguments in that context. And neither of my arguments were on an ethical bases as you stated they would be.

[Double Naught Spy]

What bullets do you use for hunting….especially a little longer range? I’m thinking about going all copper…

300 Sherman….out to 600-700 yds for now

At that distance, you are going to be dealing with bullets impacting your target at 1600-1900 fps which is at the bottom end of expansion performance for some/many/most copper bullets, unless you find some specifically designed for opening up at lower velocities.

Yes, I realize that some standard copper bullets will "open" down into the 1600-1800 fps range, but "open" is often fairly relative in the sense that they may open to 120% of their relative size versus opening to 200-300% of their original size at more typical hunting distances. That can mean a lot of difference in the amount of damage being done to help bring down the animal quicker and hence being able to find easier.

Lead bullets suffer velocity performance issues as well, but not to as great of an extent.

So, if you are shooting longer distance, you are going to want a bullet designed for opening up at lower velocities and copper will be more sensitive to this problem than lead. You may want a different bullet for shooting at more tradition sub 200 yard hunting distances to give you more optical performance there. A low velocity impact bullet may not perform in a manner that you want/expect if impacting at too great of a velocity.

I also realize that it is critical that the hunter do his/her part to make a proper shot, but there is a world of difference between a bullet pencilling through an animal and a bullet that expands in regard to the damage being done. The greater the damage, the greater the likelihood that the animal will go down sooner and usually the easier the animal will be to find.

While certainly ethical, the consideration is also very pragmatic.

[DPI7800]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

DPI7800 Ok, but were not talking about you, or archery hunting . Were talking about taking a shot with a firearm on a game animal beyond 350yds, or in in relation to the OP 600-700 yds.

you did not invalidate either of my arguments in that context. And neither of my arguments were on an ethical bases as you stated they would be.

I am certain I’m not unique when it comes to having skills in both stalking ability and shooting ability. I know my circle of company is capable in both of these skills I also know not everyone is. I find more often than not when people are lacking in knowledge and skill they have a tendency to dismiss those who do.