Which load is better?

[cdoc42]

I have a .38 Special for which I have 2 bullet choices: a 158gr LSWC and a 125gr JHP. Both are equally accurate.

The 158gr velocity is 836 fps, which delivers 245 ft-lb of muzzle energy.

The 125gr velocity is 895 fps, which delivers 222 ft-lb of muzzle energy.

Since the accuracy is equal and the difference in energy is not impressive, how does one predict which one delivers a more efficient terminal defensive effect at the same target distance?

[ligonierbill]

All things being equal (they never are, of course) I go with big bullets and momentum. What are you loading for? I have a 5" Colt Official Police that sends 158 LSWC just a little faster, but 125s much faster (>100 fps). For my Colt, it's 125s.

[Jim Watson]

Equally accurate, but do they shoot to aim?
If they do, the 125 will have substantially less recoil, which you might already notice.

[Unclenick]

Unfortunately, once arguments about how to predict terminal performance get started, there is essentially no way to get a consensus. All the stopping power formulas fail under some conditions and with some ammunition. If you follow Duncan MacPherson's school of thought, penetration (at least up until far-side exit) is most important, and maximizing that will work best, which means your 158-grain load is ahead. If you are of the school that suggests damage due to bullet expansion and shock from temporary cavities matter more, or that worries about overpenetration, then the JHP load makes more sense. Personally, I'd tend to go with the former school unless testing on game proved otherwise to my satisfaction.

[Shadow9mm]

158g LSWC. they are proven to be effective. I would worry about under penetration with the 125g at those velocities. With that said carrying handloads as defensive ammo is not the best idea IMHO. Many will debate this, however I will only carry factory ammo in my defensive guns.

[Unclenick]

I hope we don't get that argument going again. I rely on commercial defensive loads so I have a traceable lot number that would satisfy an investigator. On the other hand, emergencies can arise, and if I were in a situation where a gun full of handloads were all I had, that's what I would go with. As Jeff Cooper pointed out, no matter how short of ideal, the gun you have is better than the one you don't.

[TX Nimrod]

Since it is highly doubtful that either bullet will expand at that low velocity, it seems to me that it is a choice of penetration (heavy bullet) or faster repeat shots (lighter bullet). There is no need for an argument based on conditions which do not exist for the OP.





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[44 AMP]

You're looking at about 20% difference in weight, and less than 10% difference in velocity.
Do you think it will really will make a significant difference??

[pathdoc]

Which of the two can be discharged with the greatest combination of accuracy and rapidity in your hands, from your gun?

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

I hope we don't get that argument going again. I rely on commercial defensive loads so I have a traceable lot number that would satisfy an investigator. On the other hand, emergencies can arise, and if I were in a situation where a gun full of handloads were all I had, that's what I would go with. As Jeff Cooper pointed out, no matter how short of ideal, the gun you have is better than the one you don't.

agreed. That argument always goes down the same rabbit trail. My personal practice and recommendations is use factory for every day carry use. Nothing wrong with having defensive hand loads on hand. I just recommend they be kept in reserve and factory ammo be carried under normal circumstances for the reasons you stated.

[rc]

The 158LSWC is an old law enforcement classic with good street record. The 125HP may or may not open up anyways at 38 special velocities. If you shoot that load much better marksmanship is more important than ballistics on paper. Neither is likely to be an instant stopper.

[cdoc42]

To clarify: It IS a question of which is better defensively, ignoring the possible legal attack that I made a more dangerous weapon than the ammunition that is available to the public. In this case I suspect the velocities are lower anyway. But in review:

Legionierbill: “All things being equal (they never are, of course) I go with big bullets and momentum. What are you loading for? I have a 5" Colt Official Police that sends 158 LSWC just a little faster, but 125s much faster (>100 fps). For my Colt, it's 125s.”

I said: “The 158gr velocity is 836 fps, which delivers 245 ft-lb of muzzle energy.

The 125gr velocity is 895 fps, which delivers 222 ft-lb of muzzle energy.”

If I get the 125gr going 100 fps faster (936 fps) that delivers 243 ft-lb, which is pretty much equal to the 158gr. Wouldn’t penetration be equal based on kinetic energy, leaving a question of difference of degree of expansion and destruction?

Unclenick: “If you follow Duncan MacPherson's school of thought, penetration (at least up until far-side exit) is most important, and maximizing that will work best, which means your 158-grain load is ahead. If you are of the school that suggests damage due to bullet expansion and shock from temporary cavities matter more, or that worries about overpenetration, then the JHP load makes more sense. Personally, I'd tend to go with the former school unless testing on game proved otherwise to my satisfaction. “

Shadow9mm and TX Nimrod are in this same camp vis-à-vis penetration. 44AMP didn’t feel there was any difference in the circumstance presented to affect a choice.

To three other posters, a question of skill or accuracy was presented but I think I covered that when I said both loads were equally accurate.

It appears the consensus is the slightly higher kinetic energy of the 158gr at that velocity provides better penetration but the 125gr provides more damage with less concern about over-penetration. But upon leaving the range, it would be best to put the gun in the console with factory ammo.

[Shadow9mm]

Bullets work on 1 of 3 ways as I understand it
Blood loss, you lose too much you become incapacitated
Neurological, you hit spine or brain, things stop
Bone. You hit structural things, like pelvig girdle or a bone in the leg.

For all of these penetration is important. The deeper you can get, the better the chance of hitting spine/bone or hitting a vital organ that will cause increased blood loss.

I favor penetration. Yes a big hole is a big hole, but it can take a long time for someone to bleed out from a large but shallow wound.

[44 AMP]

44AMP didn’t feel there was any difference in the circumstance presented to affect a choice.

No, 44AMP asked if you thought it would make a significant difference...

You give us two bullet weights, general construction and speeds. First point is the speed difference. Approximately 60fps. This is NOT a very significant amount. 60fps can be the difference between shooting the same ammo from two different guns with the same barrel length. Often the difference is less but I have seen it both less and greater with different guns. I have seen 100fps difference between 3 different 6" barrel guns, and I have even seen a 4" shoot a few fps faster than an 8". Not common, but does happen, once in a while.

Next point, the 125JHP. Hollowpoints do get a significant increase in their wounding capacity WHEN THEY EXPAND RELIABLY...

Does your 125gr JHP do that, at the speed you gave us??
Many designs will not be reliable performers at the relatively low speed you have. Some MIGHT be. but unless you test them, you're really just guessing.

The heavier SWC has greater momentum, which normally yields more penetration than bullets with lower momentum. Does that matter? Possibly.

In order to work, a bullet has to get in to where it needs to go. Personally, I prefer bullets that will not only get there, but go through.

There is a distinction that should be made between measurable differences and significant differences. When you are talking multiple hundreds of difference, be it energy or velocity numbers, multiple hundreds is usually something significant.

Less than 100 difference is measurable, but seldom significant.

More important than either bullet or speed is where the hits. Where it hits is entirely under your control.

[milboltnut]

plinking correct? Or what else are you using it for?

[cdoc42]

44AMP, I apologize for misinterpreting your response. I didn't regard it as a question being directed to me about a subject about which I posed a question. I interpreted it as YOUR opinion, generically directed to the reader.

Your more detailed discussion is welcomed and clarifies my interpretation that your position is, in the midst of several constantly existing variables, the heavier bullet is the better choice.

[cdoc42]

milboltnut, the question was related to defensive use, as expressed by the last portion of the final sentence: ".....a more efficient terminal defensive effect at the same target distance?"

[milboltnut]

hey sorry yeah I see that now.

well your load is 300 fps slower and almost half the energy of that of the 9mm so I would step it up ! Does that help ? LOL

PM sent

[milboltnut]

Oh my bad ! hahahahahahahahahahahahahah ! Kinda dumb to even consider a load like that ? For self defense ?

[cdoc42]

Changing to a different caliber won’t answer my original question. But using your suggestion raises a question. What weight 9mm bullet delivers almost twice the energy at 300 fps more velocity, which would be 1195 fps for my 125gr and 1136 for my 158gr bullets?

The data I showed, 38 cal 125gr JHP gives 222 fft-lb at 895 fps. A 125gr 9mm JHP fired at max 7.1gr of Blue Dot gives 1163 fps for 376 ft-lb. (Lyman, 50th Ed.)
The 158gr LSWC in .38 was 245 ft-l going 836 fps. A 147gr lead 9mm max is 1061 fps and 368 ft-lb. (Same source)
I can’t load the .38 beyond max because it’s not a +P weapon, but the two loads I listed have been found to be equally accurate at those charge weights, using small rifle primers instead of impossible to find, small pistol primers. If I change powders and loads I need to re-assess accuracy.

[milboltnut]

apologies

[milboltnut]

let me back up. The .38 with those loads are fine for close quaters self defense. I'm having one of those days, where I'm not with it. Life bugs me at times and I take it out on other people. My apologies.

I take it you're using lead bullets LSWC... jacketed isn't much better.

Buy a .357 magnum if you are not satisfied or want to do better.

[cdoc42]

Thanks; apology accepted.

[Pathfinder45]

I expect that one of those recipes will actually prove to be more accurate than the other when you increase the distance far enough out to see it.

[jetinteriorguy]

Go with the heavier bullet. That's all there is to it.