Best single stage press for concentricity?

[turtlehead]

I'd like to add a single stage press to compliment my 550B. The 550 does a good job but I'm looking for something that does great.

Starting with case necks at or under .001, am seeing up to .004 runout on the seated bullet. Using Redding Competion dies in .223.

Is the answer Forster? The new MEC looks interesting.

What press has worked best for you?

[rg1]

The Forster Co-Ax sizes and seats more concentric than my screw in and lock down die presses. It does it without any effort. However with good techniques fixed die presses are fully capable of loading concentric ammo. Sometimes though it does take some fiddling to get good alignment with dies and shellholders. I'd choose the Co-Ax for the natural tendency to seat and size for low run-out. Most say 0-2 thousandths for match ammo and 0-4 thousandths for hunting type ammo is sufficient.

[daboone]

You probably know this but how do you measure runout? One thing to remember is actual runout is half of what the gage says as it swing from the "zero" from positive to negative. This is called total indicated runout [TIR]. That is if the total TIR from positive to negative is 4 then the cartridge's runout is 2.

[jmorris]

Spend your money on dies.

I can put good dies in a 550, 650, 1050 or cheap Lee single stage for that matter and get more concentric sized cases and loaded ammunition than my Co-ax with dies that are less than ideal.

If you ammunition is crummy now and you buy the best press then screw in the same dies, I wouldn't hold my breath on getting great results.

FWIW the 550 is the only progressive where the case doesn't sit "on" the shell plate, it is much like the co-ax in that the shell plate is only there to remove it from the die and any error in alignment it has, has no effect on the round going into the die.

[turtlehead]

@daboone Um, I didn't know that. New at this. Thank you.

@jmorris I'm using Redding dies.

[6MT]

imho, the Coax should be your choice. Self centering floating can't be beat.

Oh, and upgrade your dies.

[turtlehead]

Due to my inexperience the numbers given in the original post were total indicated runout. I am pleased NOW with the results.

And you guys seem not to like my fancy dies.

Thanks for setting me straight @daboone.

[Unclenick]

Turtlehead,

The Co-ax press is the way to go if the press is to be responsible for the alignment work. However, your existing equipment, with the Redding Seater, should be able to do very well. I like the Co-ax for rifle because stopping to trim and using a non-standard sizing method all suits batch loading better than progressive loading for precision slow fire ammo. For rapid fire or volume shooting of combat accuracy, the progressive if fine.

Can you be more specific about which dies you have? The Competition Die line include the Competition Seater Die (best made, IMHO), but there is more than one sizing die choice, such as the S-type FL sizer and the S-type Competition Neck Sizing Die, and the standard sizing die. The S dies come with expanders and a decapping pin retaining button and you have to pick one or the other. The button is preferable as bottleneck die neck expanders tend to pull case necks off-axis and this can cause the runout you have. I am typically getting half or less of the TIR you are reporting, but I am not pulling necks over expanders any longer. For an example of what due pull-over expanders do to case necks, see this video and note the fellow is using a Co-ax press, so the neck runout he gets from a die with an expander is not eliminated by having that nice press.

I have a Redding standard FL sizing die I used in .30-06 for long time. In that die I replaced the expander with a carbide expander, which produces less friction with the brass. That reduced neck runout considerably, and is one option you have. These days, for precision match loads I use either a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die as shown in the video, and a Redding Body Die (which doesn't size the neck) to bump the shoulder back slightly, or a Redding S Die with a bushing selected for the lot.

The bottom line here is that you could have the best press and dies in the world, but if you are pulling necks over an expander, you can still have runout issues.

Here's an illustration I made to show how neck tilt relates to runout and TIR on different types of measuring gauges.

[F. Guffey]

Due to my inexperience the numbers given in the original post were total indicated runout. I am pleased NOW with the results

Turtlehead, I know the feeling, I visited Dillon in Chandler, in the way they told the story there was nothing to do but replace all of my dies with Dillon dies and then we got down to business because I was not starting over with new dies and if my old dies did not fit their press I was going to stick to my Piggy Back 11s.

They also explained the problem with seating and crimping on the same position etc. Anyhow, I purchased RL550B and they gave me permission to use my dies and seating and crimping was OK because I will not load on a progressive press without a lock out die.

I did read a response a reloader made about the coaxial press, he claimed he purchased one because that is what all of the elite shooters preferred. I do not have one, I believe owning one could turn me into something I would not like. And then there are all of these other presses; I have no fewer than 11 Herter presses, one with two rams, two more that are called 'U' presses, another with 6 holes in the turret and 3s, I have 3s with triple webs and some are called SUPER 3s and for those that do not like the 'C' type press I have straps that close the open C.

And then there is measuring run out, I made the mistake of saying "I have a gage that no one else uses" and everyone got angry.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

LOL! I've had the Co-ax a long time and it hasn't turned me into a pumpkin yet. If you ask my wife, I already resembled that fruit before I got it, which was about 25 years ago, now.

[turtlehead]

@F.Guffey I have the Competition seater and Competition neck sizing die set.

As I am still experimenting (for a bolt action and ARs) the following setup was used:

Dillon full length sizing die with the decapping stem completely removed.

Sinclair expander die with .222 mandrel (also have the .223)

Redding Competition seating die.

Dillon taper crimp.

Here I am working up loads for the AR. I still need to work with the neck bushing dies. For my own curiosity I wanted to know how good the Dillon dies were.

I have a box of .223 Lapua brass for the bolt action but feel there is more to learn before I get that far. Have been using once fired LC for now.

[turtlehead]

AND the .004 (really .002) number listed in the original post is an outlier. So I guess my results are actually pretty good.

[turtlehead]

I'm batch loading on the 550 if that wasn't clear.

[Unclenick]

That should work well. Have you measured runout of the necks before seating the bullets?

[flashhole]

I like the conventional presses more than the Co-Ax. Work on refining your technique with the equipment you have. FWIW - I get fantastic results using my Lee Classic Turret press. I'm also a fan of the Lee Collet Neck Die and the Redding Body Die for precision rifle ammo.

[turtlehead]

@Unclenick Yes. After sizing and trimming the brass is divided into two containers. One for 0 - .005 and one for .006 - .001 case neck concentricity. Have had a Sinclair concentricity gauge for about two weeks now. Fun stuff, I think.

[jmorris]

I do not have one, I believe owning one could turn me into something I would not like.

Whatever I am, I was before I owned a Co-ax.

[jmorris]

After sizing and trimming the brass is divided into two containers. One for 0 - .005 and one for .006 - .001 (going to assume you ment .006-.010) case neck concentricity.

That sure seems like a lot of runout on a case alone sized or just fired (assuming they are not obviously bent or dented), what do they measure before you size, for them to come out so bad?

If running them through your die makes them worse, take a look at your process. First suggestion would be to lube inside the neck and a different die right after that.

I just grabbed 10 random cases of .223 cases from a batch of around 3000 cases I prepped yesterday on a 650 with Dillon dies (carbide expander), the worst one was under .001" TIR. Grabbed 3 more, lubed them up and ran them through a Lee single stage with an ancient Lee die and the worst one of them was still well under .002" TIR.

[Unclenick]

I think he dropped some zeros. 0.0005" or less and 0.0006-0.0010".

…Also, have you disassembled your seating die and cleaned the factory oil out? If found that made a difference. I used mineral spirits with 10% ATF. You may recall from ancient history that sperm whale oil is a traditional watch lubricant because it is thin and doesn't gum up. The first automatic transmissions were invented in the 30's and used sperm whale oil for the same reason. So ATF is a sperm whale oil substitute and its is pretty immune to any kind of thickening or gumming over a wide range of temperatures.

One trick you can play with your Dillon press is one that John Feamster recommended with a Rock Chucker he was using (IIRC). He put a rubber O-ring between the die lock nut and the press. This allowed a little extra wiggle for self-centering (a Lee lock ring not tightened too much will do the same thing). I have tried it with limited success. I found I had to lube the die threads and press threads for it to have much real effect.

One more thing to check is the runout of your case heads. If your rifle bolt face or your chamber aren't perfectly square to or coaxial with the bore axis, respectively, your case heads can be fireformed slightly out of square and not push into the dies quite square.

Finally, you can adjust your finished rounds. NECO sells a nice tool for this, but all you really need is a piece of hardwood with a bullet-sized hole drilled into it. You put the bullet end of the cartridge in and, with practice, learn how hard to push to correct the error. You then retest for this on your runout gauge.

[F. Guffey]

Whatever I am, I was before I owned a Co-ax.

I do not insist all reloaders should have one, if I had one I would need to keep one of my 20 other presses because I insist on room above and below the die because I am the fan of turning all of my dies into a micro adjust.

And then I am the fan of thread engagement; I want as many threads engages as I can get and I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, I do not secure the lock ring to the die.

And when discussing the coaxial press I always remember Unclenick uses one.

F. Guffey

[turtlehead]

Yes, I dropped some zeros. Sorry.

Keeping the dies very clean with denatured alcohol and Q-Tips.

I need to start drinking coffee.

[primerman]

Your guys are sick, sick I tell ya.

[noylj]

I find that even a loose press can make great loads, if you use a case/round to align the die to the shell plate. The press can float quite a bit, as long as the die/shell-holder is aligned.
IF you want to minimize run-out (which I haven't found to be a PRESS issue), you need to ensure the seating stem is aligned and coaxial to the case and EXACTLY fits the bullet (as low down the ogive as possible). Most seating stems are not really aligned--they were just screwed in and that was that--not even a matter of leaving them slightly loose and running a good round up and then setting the seating stem to align to the good round before locking the stem down.
The real accuracy freaks use an arbor press (often, a rather inexpensive arbor press) and custom dies made to match the rifle chamber. The DIES and parts to the dies that make the difference.

[jmorris]

Have had a Sinclair concentricity gauge for about two weeks now.

Is this the setup you are using?

[turtlehead]

That's the one.