Hard to extract reloads....need some wisdom - Page 2

F. Guffey · January 21, 2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

This begs the question: Why would you need to anneal the 7.62x39 brass after only two reloadings?

Why? Dahermit, I am sure you are keeping up, annealing is sweeping the forums, annealing is becoming an all consuming obsession. At one time it only involved 'us casuals, and now

Anyhow, I agree, he should settle on a step sequence when annealing. I believe when and how is more important than jumping into it in a dead run without having to explain rules and factors. I have rules, methods and techniques, and I make every effort to avoid seeming lofty.

F. Guffey

603Country · January 21, 2017, 12:00 PM

The problem seems to be the annealing. Park those cases, buy more and use them a few times and skip the annealing step.

If it isn't that, then the OP is indeed loading them too hot. Just because a reloading book gives you a max powder load, that doesn't mean that your rifle can handle that published max load. I've run into that problem before.

dahermit · January 21, 2017, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Why? Dahermit, I am sure you are keeping up, annealing is sweeping the forums, annealing is becoming an all consuming obsession. At one time it only involved 'us casuals, and now

Actually, I have not been keeping up. I don't shoot much rifle now (a whole lot of pistol though), but when I did, I shot a whole lot of rounds without ever annealing a bottle necked case..the primer pockets would get loose way before any annealing was likely to be of use. I do understand how the current trend it to anneal to enable a consistent bullet pull, but my target rifle showed no deterioration in accuracy due to the cases not being annealed. The fact that he has a 7.62X39 ( I have one...Ruger M77 Mk.II), suggests that there is little to be gained by agonizing over bullet pull inasmuch as a 7.62x39 has never been considered to a target quality cartridge.
What I did find as a benefit of annealing was when my over-crimped Keith-type .44 Magnum loadings began to get neck splits, the rest of the batch could be saved by annealing the necks. But, in all honesty, the necks on those .44's were being overworked with too much flair and way too much crimp. I am sure I could have gotten away with just a light flare and a light crimp and avoided annealing completely...which I eventually did.
When it comes to annealing, there are too many pitfalls/bad practices that can end up doing more harm than good unless one has the correct equipment, knowledge and uses the correct practices...and too many Youtube videos done by people who do not know what they are doing.

Longshot4 · January 21, 2017, 03:38 PM

wildernesshunter: One question that had been asked was. What did the head look like after firing. Let me add to that important questions. As a sign of high pressure. 1) What primer did you use. 2) Was a change made? 3) Is the primer flattened? 4) Does the head stamp show distortion from the bolt face. 5) Does the bolt face leave a imprint on the head face.

All of these are signs of over pressure. The new bullet might have a higher value of friction when fired in the barrel.

When you change bullets you should be working up loads.

Mobuck · January 21, 2017, 03:51 PM

"This begs the question: Why would you need to anneal the 7.62x39 brass after only two reloadings?"

This is my question, also. All of a sudden, everyone feels the need to anneal everything. I've loaded for 50 years and have NEVER annealed a single case.

Dufus · January 21, 2017, 04:54 PM

^^^^^^^^
Exactly what Mr. Guffey said and Mobuck.

It is very easy to over heat a brass case when annealing, and the smaller they are the easiest it is to do.

Put the torch back in the drawer and load some new brass.

Longshot4 · January 22, 2017, 01:11 PM

The question of why to anneal your brass after 2 loading? We have a lot of information on the firing line sight for reloading. I don't think you are going to find a better sight to learn all the challenges of it. You can even ask questions and get lancers. So why not try your hand in annealing and see how it comes out. It is a challenge isn't it. I have tried it and I may try it again some day. You are never too old to learn. All though some people are afraid to try some thing new. I do believe handloaders have some of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and You name em in us.

RC20 · January 22, 2017, 03:16 PM

In answer to the annealing question.

After 10 loadings my bullets were seating really hard.

After 15 the necks were splitting.

Annealing done right correct both of those. Even done wrong (as long as you don't overheat the case) it helps some of that.

I hate to keep buying new brass or once fired.

The only way I see no impact is they are not reloading much, could be wrong.

Pistol no, rifle yes.

T. O'Heir · January 22, 2017, 04:07 PM

Read your manual again. 30.0 grains of Accurate 2200 is over Max for a 123 grain bullet. 29.4(Compressed) is the current max according to Accurate's site, so it's not by much. Very likely to be just the normal variations in manuals. And the velocities in your manual only apply to the barrel length used by Accurate. 21" on their site.
You also didn't give the OAL length you used.
In any case, hard extractions and bolt opening indicate excessive pressure and bad headspace. Highly unlikely to be headspace on a commercial hunting rifle.
"...Ruger's Mini-30 is actually a .308 barrel..." Hasn't been for eons now. Ruger put the correct diameter barrel on Mini's years ago when proper bullet diameters were available.
Whether you anneal or not isn't an issue. Doesn't do anything to pressures. However, it's not something you need to do every time. Or even just because you wanted to. You anneal when you get one cracked case.
Trimming isn't necessary unless the cases get longer than the max case length given in your manual. Doesn't hurt anything if you do either, Just remember to chamfer and deburr if you do trim.
Mind you, your 1.540" is too long. 1.528” is the max case length for 7.62 x 39. That is very likely the cause of your issues.

rodfac · January 24, 2017, 10:38 PM

Quote:

AA2200 listed two loads at 26 and 27 grains with 123 grain spitzer soft point bullets. You are using 15% more powder and IMHO your gun is trying to tell you that it is too much pressure.

Whew...cut the powder charge, pronto, and see what you get. If you're 15% over, you are in dangerous territory.

Too, in spite of your phone call to Howa regarding groove dia. for the rifle....if you have a .308" groove dia. and you are using .310" dia. bullets, you're upping the pressure curve dramatically. YOU can check the bore dia. by tapping a round lead sinker down the bore with a suitable steel or brass rod. I'd check it before I shot any more of those .310" bullets. HTH's Rod

January 21, 2017, 12:00 PM	#27
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 4,039	The problem seems to be the annealing. Park those cases, buy more and use them a few times and skip the annealing step. If it isn't that, then the OP is indeed loading them too hot. Just because a reloading book gives you a max powder load, that doesn't mean that your rifle can handle that published max load. I've run into that problem before.

January 21, 2017, 03:38 PM	#29
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2014 Posts: 868	wildernesshunter: One question that had been asked was. What did the head look like after firing. Let me add to that important questions. As a sign of high pressure. 1) What primer did you use. 2) Was a change made? 3) Is the primer flattened? 4) Does the head stamp show distortion from the bolt face. 5) Does the bolt face leave a imprint on the head face. All of these are signs of over pressure. The new bullet might have a higher value of friction when fired in the barrel. When you change bullets you should be working up loads.

January 21, 2017, 03:51 PM	#30
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"This begs the question: Why would you need to anneal the 7.62x39 brass after only two reloadings?" This is my question, also. All of a sudden, everyone feels the need to anneal everything. I've loaded for 50 years and have NEVER annealed a single case.

January 21, 2017, 04:54 PM	#31
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	^^^^^^^^ Exactly what Mr. Guffey said and Mobuck. It is very easy to over heat a brass case when annealing, and the smaller they are the easiest it is to do. Put the torch back in the drawer and load some new brass.

January 22, 2017, 01:11 PM	#32
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2014 Posts: 868	The question of why to anneal your brass after 2 loading? We have a lot of information on the firing line sight for reloading. I don't think you are going to find a better sight to learn all the challenges of it. You can even ask questions and get lancers. So why not try your hand in annealing and see how it comes out. It is a challenge isn't it. I have tried it and I may try it again some day. You are never too old to learn. All though some people are afraid to try some thing new. I do believe handloaders have some of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and You name em in us.

January 22, 2017, 03:16 PM	#33
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,330	In answer to the annealing question. After 10 loadings my bullets were seating really hard. After 15 the necks were splitting. Annealing done right correct both of those. Even done wrong (as long as you don't overheat the case) it helps some of that. I hate to keep buying new brass or once fired. The only way I see no impact is they are not reloading much, could be wrong. Pistol no, rifle yes.

January 22, 2017, 04:07 PM	#34
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Read your manual again. 30.0 grains of Accurate 2200 is over Max for a 123 grain bullet. 29.4(Compressed) is the current max according to Accurate's site, so it's not by much. Very likely to be just the normal variations in manuals. And the velocities in your manual only apply to the barrel length used by Accurate. 21" on their site. You also didn't give the OAL length you used. In any case, hard extractions and bolt opening indicate excessive pressure and bad headspace. Highly unlikely to be headspace on a commercial hunting rifle. "...Ruger's Mini-30 is actually a .308 barrel..." Hasn't been for eons now. Ruger put the correct diameter barrel on Mini's years ago when proper bullet diameters were available. Whether you anneal or not isn't an issue. Doesn't do anything to pressures. However, it's not something you need to do every time. Or even just because you wanted to. You anneal when you get one cracked case. Trimming isn't necessary unless the cases get longer than the max case length given in your manual. Doesn't hurt anything if you do either, Just remember to chamfer and deburr if you do trim. Mind you, your 1.540" is too long. 1.528” is the max case length for 7.62 x 39. That is very likely the cause of your issues.