4fg powder sub

[dr1445]

i am thinking about getting a flintlock, the only problem is no availability of black powder in my area. what to do about 4fg for the priming powder? pyrodex p?

[rodwhaincamo]

The subs have a higher ignition temp needed that a flintlock just cannot achieve.

You'll need to order powder through the mail. I get mine from Grafs as I cannot afford a pallet at a time. I used to buy 3F Triple 7 from BassPro but found that I could break even with just 3 lbs at Grafs including the HazMat fee and shipping without the hassle of driving all the way there just to find they still didn't have it, which is precisely what happened for several months in a row.

You can use 3F in the pan as I've read many do. It's what I intend on doing once I get a flintlock myself.

[dr1445]

i was thinking black mz for the main charge. if i get a flintlock it appears there is no choice but to go as you suggested and combine a can of 4f with some t7 and blk mz if grafs has it.
edit; pyrodex p = 3fg? i could try it, as i can always use p in my revolvers.

[maillemaker]

You can buy black powder online from Powder Inc. for $17.10 - $26.40 per pound, depending on how much you buy - 5, 10, or 25+ pounds.

http://powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

If you can prime with 3F as rodwhaincamo suggests (I have no idea; never shot flintlock), you can definitely shoot a rifle or smoothbore with 3F. I use 3F in everything - .58 caliber rifles and carbines, .44 caliber pistols, and .69 caliber smoothbore. 3F burns a little faster than 2F so you can use less of it in a long arm for the same effect as more 2F, so you save money shooting 3F.

Steve

[dr1445]

i just ordered a cylinder loader from powder inc, but the 5 lbs min is more than i care purchase. where i live even a 1 lb can of bp is skating on thin ice.

[maillemaker]

You can always pass it along to friends to store for you. But anyway, no one needs to know...

Steve

[rodwhaincamo]

Not sure about Black MZ but Hodgdons states you'd need a small primer charge of real black powder to set off the main charge of T7 or Pyrodex in a flintlock along with BP in the pan.

"P" stands for Pistol and is equivelent to 3F.

I use 3F T7 and Olde Eynsford BP in both .44/.45 cal revolvers and .50 cal rifle, and will also use it in anything larger I get (I need a .54 cal and 28 ga barrel for my Lyman rifle).

If going from 2F to 3F the rule of thumb is to reduce about 10% of max charge due to quicker burn/quicker pressure buildup.

[dr1445]

here is what alliant has to say about blk mz. "Effective in all black powder firearms, Black MZ™ is a black powder replacement designed for hunters, Cowboy Action shooters and re-enactment enthusiasts. Moisture resistant and virtually non-corrosive, Black MZ replicates black powder performance without the ignition headaches and cleaning hassles common to traditional black powder use".

[rodwhaincamo]

Interesting.

I suppose this means you'll be trying it as is in your flintlock? If so please report your findings.

[dr1445]

still thinking on a flintlock. i have used blk mz in my t/c black diamond with #11 caps with good results, it also went boom in my cap and ball revolvers. the question remaining is if pyrodex p, used as primer, will kick it in flintlock.

[Chowmif16]

Pyrodex is not good for anything in a flintlock. You gotta have real Black powder in the priming pan, be it 3 or 4 Fg.
For the main charge, real Black is by far the best. If you use Pyrodex, you will see some combination hangfires, misfires, or failures to fire.
I'm sure there are folks who use Pyrodex as their main charge, but I'll bet you a six pack that their ignition is slower than with real black. They may not notice, but it is there. You even see that with Pyrodex in percussion guns.
I can't speak to Triple7 or Black MZ, but I seriously doubt you will like the results in a flintlock. That quote posted above mentioning that it solves the ignition problems with traditional black powder is total BS in my opinion. The only time I have had recurring ignition problems is if I don't use real Black Powder.
Black powder is available, you just have to go out and find it. It's a small price to pay for avoiding all the pitfalls of substitute powders.

[rodwhaincamo]

dr1445: Do you not own a flintlock (yet)?

To get Pyrodex of T7 to ignite in a flintlock you'll have to use BP unless Black MZ is true to their word. It does certainly seem they make the claim. It may well work but I doubt it's as good as the real deal. But then I have no experience with it and doubt I would unless BP were outlawed and I owned a flintlock.



Chowmif16: The claim they made is that it fixed the ignition problems in flintlocks when using subs not BP. It would be quite foolish to make a statement that BP was iffy.

[dr1445]

no flintlock yet, still sorting out the powder requirement details.

[B.L.E.]

I have seen some people just use a brass powder measure as a roller and use it to grind up some 2 or 3fg into 4f or finer for pan priming.
You just put a small amount on a piece of thin cardboard and roll the brass powder measure over it back and forth until it's nearly dust. Something to consider as an alternative to buying an entire pound of 4f that will take you nearly a lifetime of shooting to use up priming your flintlock pan.

[rodwhaincamo]

Does buying a flintlock hinge on whether you'll be able to use subs?

What are you considering?

[Wyosmith]

I earn about 85% of my living making flintlocks. I know a thing or 2 about them.

No black-powder substitute will flash in the pan and/or light the main charge.
You need REAL black powder.

You can (and should) buy 25 pounds and have it shipped to your door.
If you are worried about how to store it PM me and I can give you a few tips on how and where to do it safely.

Oh.....buy the way; You can use 4F for the priming, but there is no real need. I use 3F and even 2F to prime and I have no problems at all.
Here are a few links to look at if you like flintlocks and classic muzzleloaders.
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...erican%20guns/

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...German%20guns/

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...nglish%20guns/

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ie%20Harrison/

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/szihn/pistols/

[B.L.E.]

Gotta agree with Wyosmith, there is no substitute for real black powder when you are shooting a flintlock.
A gentleman came to one of our shoots shooting his flintlock and was using Triple 7. He thought flintlocks were supposed to be real slow going off. I gave him some of my Schuetzen real black powder and he was amazed at the difference. It went off nearly as fast as a percussion rifle.
Made a believer out of him, and he bought some real black powder from the vendor at the shoot.

[Chowmif16]

Rodwhaincamo,
You are wise, it would indeed be foolish to imply real BP has ignition problems. I have not seen the claim from Black MZ from the source, I only read what was posted by DR1445, ie, in the quote it seems to imply that it solves ignition and cleaning problems experienced with traditional BP.
If I was incorrect, I happily stand corrected.

I guess I have seen this question come up many times for both percussion and flintlock, and based on my experience with subs I am firmly rooted in the "I only shoot real black powder" camp. It's largely for practical reasons for me. I shoot percussion, flint and BP cartridge. I have had ignition problems with subs in percussion and am sure it won't get any better in flintlock, so I avoid them altogether. Combined with the fact that BP is more accessible than most folks are aware of, I attempt at all times to advise the use of real BP.

I hereby stand down from my soapbox...

[dr1445]

it turns out i have about 1/2 tin 2f, the can says dupont gunpowder delaware. yup, i can grind it down as recommended above, no problem. as for the type of flintlock, i was looking on gunbroker and other sites. i am not married to tradition and find the breech plugs in my inlines easy to use and yes i did own a cap lock years back. i find the traditions pa pellet and tc firestorm interesting, the reviews are negative for pellet use, but i like powder to tune my loads. there are not many threads out there on the use of black mz in flintlocks but what i have found is positive. i bid on a pa pellet last night but could not make the reserve, patience.

[B.L.E.]

Even though DuPont originally got its start by making gunpowder, they haven't made gunpowder for a long time and sold their black powder plant to Goex.
That old DuPont black powder can might bring some money from a collector. Probably not a whole lot, but there are people that collect antique ammo and such.

[rodwhaincamo]

Chowmif16: It appears as though I suffered from reading comprehension. Maybe it's because I know better? I had to go to their site and see, and it does indeed make the claim as stated. I must say I'm quite sceptical. Nay, I believe it a bogus claim, though maybe the fouling is easier, less, or somesuch. It may have a lower flash point than other subs, but I doubt it's easier than real BP. But who knows?

I prefer higher energy as I don't want to need to carry/stock various powders. As I have a .50 cal rifle and two large cal (.44/.45 cal) revolvers that I intend for hunting I'll use what gives performance, which is 3F powder. Prior to going online it was Triple 7 for me, but I was very interested in BP as the traditional sites I'm a member of are die hard users. So I had to see for myself. Swiss was the only game at that time, but wasn't available. Now there is Olde Eynsford by Goex and it much cheaper than Swiss or T7. My POI and group sizes are about the same and from chronograph results posted they all 3 give similar results by volume. So I have more Olde E than T7 due to the price.

I use Gatofeo's #1 lube so fouling isn't an issue for me.

[B.L.E.]

It may have a lower flash point than other subs, but I doubt it's easier than real BP. But who knows?

I'm pretty sure that if any sub had black powder's ignition temperature, it would also fall under the same BATFE regulations that real black powder falls under.
It's the regulations that black powder falls under that keeps it from being sold at most shooting supply stores. Most of the big box retailers don't want to go through the bother for something that only a minority of muzzle loaders want to buy. All the deer hunting motivated muzzle loaders want sabots and pellets and 209 primers.