Yellow granules and stuck casings with S&W 500 and Magtech 500L

[sw500newb]

I am a new S&W 500 owner. I have shot around 200 rounds of Magtech 500A and 500B.

Recently I purchased quite many boxes of Magtech 500L which is a little lighter magnum load (don't ask why I got them).

When I visited the range today, I immediately ran into issues with the 500L cartridges.

After shooting few rounds I noticed that one of the cases was stuck into the cylinder. Very tight. I could not get it out even with some force. I continue shooting with the rest of the chambers, but again, 2 more cases got stuck in the cylinder.

I had one box of 500A with me, and I shot that using the 2 free chambers and had no issues. I then tried 500L again from a different box, and managed to shoot 15 rounds or so, until I got bad round (?) again. Now that I was expecting this to happen, I noticed that the recoil and sound is very different for 500L which shoots normally, and 500L which ends up stuck in the chamber.

I ended up with all 5 chambes with stuck casing. When I got home, I tapped the casings from the front side of the cylinder (doh) and managed to get them out, but I had to use some force.

There was yellowish powder (unburnt powder?) all over the barrel, chambers and in the casings.

Image can be found from here:
http://forums.kaulaparta.com/media/3...gtech.500l.jpg

Can you please help me understand what is going on here,what could be the issue and if I should avoid shooting the rest of the 500L and could this be a faulty batch?

Gun is not modified in any way, kept clean and I only shoot factory loads (500A, 500B before these issues with 500L)

[TimSr]

Is that crap on the outside of the cases smooth? By the black makings on the outside of the casing, it looks like gas is blowing by the case. This is usually a case of not enough pressure to expand the case tightly for a good seal. I see it in some of my ultra light .38 loads.

Stuck casings are usually a sign of over pressure, but in your case I'm thinking they are getting gummed into place with residue blowing by.

Not scientific, but I would be interested in how easily the stuck casings will go back in and come back out after you clean the outside of them and the cylinders. If they drop in and come out easily when clean, that would be evidence leaning towards the theory that residue from blow by is causing them to stick.

[Ole 5 hole group]

I believe you purchased some low pressure/low velocity ammunition and the cases are stuck in the charge hole due to previous crud buildup.

You can get the same results reloading 500 SW with IMR4227 that is at or below book starting loads. IMR4227 and AA1680 are but 2 powders that need higher pressure to burn clean.

There are many powders that need to be in a certain pressure range to burn clean and going below that pressure range you get a lot of dirty (dark) looking cases and a lot of odd looking granules on your table, barrel, and sometimes it'll even build up around your cylinder gap/forcing cone area and you'll be unable to close your cylinder.

On occasion one or more of those granules will find its way under your ejector star and you won't be able to close your cylinder either or you'll find closing it to be very difficult.

Take a cleaning rod with a 20 gauge mop end and swab out the cylinders after firing a cylinder full and it might help - won't hurt

Yes, peak pressure will decrease in cool weather and increase in hot weather.

[sw500newb]

Crap outside the cases is mostly not smooth. Feels a bit like sandpaper on the parts with the "dots".

I cleaned one casing and it fits very easily in to the chambers and comes out very easily.

Image:
http://forums.kaulaparta.com/media/3...129_203936.jpg

Stupid question:
Does temperature/weather have any impact on the pressure build? If the load is very close to being "enough", could it be because of cold temperature that the pressure is not enough for all cartiridges? I was not shooting in extreme weather, but very close to 0 celsius (32 fahrenheit).

[sw500newb]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I might try 500L in warm indoor range and see if that helps. If it does, I will save the rounds until summer and shoot 500A/B/D during winter.

Will also try cleaning the chambers after shooting cylinderful.

[buck460XVR]

I think I might try 500L in warm indoor range and see if that helps.

I doubt if the ambient temps have that much to do with it especially since it was not extreme. I agree that the blowby and the carbon/soot it is producing is what is leading to sticky extraction. The granules on the gun and cases could be unburned powder(altho I have never seen any unburned powder that looked or felt like sand) or it could be debris thrown up from the platform you are shooting on from the intense blast from the cylinder gap. I have a similar problem with my .460. The blast and the escaping hot gases will cut thru even a leather sandbag in only a few shots if not protected and the result is sand in and on everything. Any little bit of sand/dust on the bench will also result in the same. I've gotten so I put down a clean towel or clean the bench before I shoot. I also protect the sandbags if used by wrapping them in duct-tape. I also have gotten away from using sand in them preferring to use lead shot or rice.

Low pressure rounds are notorious for leaving unburnt powder and partially burnt powder residue. This can lead to premature fouling of the gun. With a revolver many times this residue gets under the extraction star and can lead to problems with loading and unloading. I always have a wooden dowel with me for tapping stuck cases out at the range. Sometimes it's over pressure from new rounds I'm testing, sometimes it's because I shot too many times between cleanings. Sometimes with the high pressure loads of the .460 it's case separation or splits.

[44 AMP]

What you have there is a classic example of incomplete powder ignition.

THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE AMMO! STOP! don't shoot it, and contact the maker and describe what is going on! Give the maker the lot# and all details...

There can be several reasons why this happens, one of them is a powder unsuitable for the load density in the case. Another might be low temp. Another might be the case/crimp (or lack of).

The exact cause doesn't matter right now, what matters is this is factory ammo, and its not "right". The maker NEEDS to know, so they can fix whatever it was in their process that went wrong. Also, they should replace the defective product.

The golden /yellow color is powder with the graphite coating burned off. This means that the primer tried to ignite the powder, but it didn't burn properly.

The stuck cases, and the residue on the outside of the cases is the same partially burnt powder.

Don't shoot that stuff anymore!

[AK103K]

(altho I have never seen any unburned powder that looked or felt like sand)

Ive seen it with reloads using 2400 in a 4" .44 mag. Looked exactly like the first pic. The powder wasnt being burned completely. An adjustment in the load later seemed to clear it up.

Extraction became difficult after a couple of cylinders full, and eventually, some of that unburnt powder, made its way under the extractor star, which caused things to really bind up.

[JAREDSHS]

44AMP is spot on right-----do not shoot any more of those, contact the maker.

[Jim Watson]

Sounds a lot like some of the .44 Automag that came out of Mexico. Underpowered with unburnt slow powder everywhere

[James K]

Definitely looks like unburned powder, possibly pointing at defective primers. I agree with 44 AMP - contact the maker and keep the unfired rounds if they should ask to return them. (I am assuming the rounds are factory and not reloads in once-fired cases.)

Jim

[sw500newb]

Thanks for the replies.

These are factory rounds.

I have contacted the manufacturer and I am waiting for reply.

[feets]

THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE AMMO!

Exactly.

WHY did you continue to shoot the ammo when you had experienced a second problem?
I can give anyone reasonable doubt with a single hiccup but a second one out of the same box means it's time to stop and investigate.

[sw500newb]

WHY did you continue to shoot the ammo when you had experienced a second problem?
I can give anyone reasonable doubt with a single hiccup but a second one out of the same box means it's time to stop and investigate

Very good question. I was not fully aware that I had a real issue until the last two rounds. As this was new round (500L) to me, I did not know what to expect recoil- and sound-wise. Of course casings sticking in the cylinder is not normal behaviour, but they can be a bit sticky if the chambers are dirty. This is what I thought I had until the last rounds when I noticed that the sound+recoil was different, and the round jammed right after that.

Back home when the casings did not come off with fingers, I understood that this is not just the case of dirty chambers and normal sticky casings.

[sw500newb]

This issue is moving forward quite fast.

The factory had contacted the local distributor and they contacted me by email earlier and by phone today.

They want the rest of the cartridges for investigation and offered to replace them with the A/B/D cartridges.

Person who contacted me was very polite, professional and customer-centric, excellent customer service!

[JAREDSHS]

Glad it is working out and that you and your revolver were not hurt.

[BWM]

It looks like the powder is a slow burring!! I had that happen when I bought some government powder that was miss label it locked up my 29 in about 12 rounds my 19 in about 6 rounds.It might had worked better if I had used Mag primers and a tighter crimp. I dump the 4 Lb in the creek!!

[44 AMP]

They want the rest of the cartridges for investigation and offered to replace them with the A/B/D cartridges.

In my opinion, that is the least they should do. Many US ammo/gun companies are more generous than just replacing the defective product. Hats, shirts, magazines, or other accessories (including more ammo) have been offered to people who reported problems. I know some of them personally.

The idea is considered a "pat on the back" bonus for helping them find, and fix issues. If all you get out of the deal is replacement of the unfired defective ammo, I would feel the maker was "cheaping out".

Good Luck with your situation, and please, let us know how it eventually turns out.