what does "lead bullets" mean?

[johnroy]

Can someone familiar with Ken Waters and his "Pet Loads" writings tell me if he meant plain lead bullets when he said "lead bullets" or did he assume gas checks when appropriate? In his article on "Supplemental Chambers and Gallery Loads", Nov 1991, he only talks about lead bullets and mentions that he got no leading. There is no mention of jacketed bullets or gas checks in this article. The idea is really attractive but when I have tried reduced loads with lead bullets, no gas checks, I have found no useful loads that did not lead extensively.

Following is a summary of my 30 cal experience with the reduced loads.

I have not tried loads as small as the ones he used in the article referenced here and the lightest bullet I had tried in 30 caliber was a commercial one at 0.309 inch diameter, 135 grains, 15 BHN. I tried it in a Marlin 336, 30-30, and a Savage 1899, 300 Savage. I used Lee's Alox , two times through, as a lubricant, no sizing.

Powder tried were:Trail Boss (8 - 11 gr), Bullseye (5 - 6 gr), Unique (5 - 10 gr), A5744 (15 - 23 gr), W231 (5 - 6 gr), and RX7 (18 - 22gr).

Best groups were 300 Savage: 0.3in @ 25yd w/9.0 gr Unique; 30-30: 0.625 5 shot group @ 25 yd w/ 5.5 gr BE, W231 about the same, 1 5/8 in @ 50 yd w/7.5gr Unique.

Things didn't seem to line up. I could not see loads getting larger and smaller as the loads moved up and down by .5 grain.
Got some really wild groups with some of the loads. A5744 leaded badly and started smoking at 19 to 20 gr. Got a nice star on the crown too.
I loaded the 30-30 with 11 gr Trail Boss behind a Rem 10 gr FMJ 30 carbine bullet and got about a 1inch group at 125 yards. I did not run anything over the chrono so I do not know if this last load with the FMJ is a reduced load.

No leading with the FMJ (yeah) but it seems like everything else left me with a lot more cleaning than I want to do.

I guess there are really two questions here: one, about nomenclature and two, any ideas on what might improve the leading problem?

[edited to put spaces between paragraphs, it got a lot longer than I thought.]

[chris in va]

I think we need you to define 'leading'. I shoot lead with gas check in my x39 carbine at 1600fps and the bore has a nice grey patina, but no substantial buildup or clumps. Is that what you're seeing?

[Unclenick]

I suspect he's referring to plain bases. Gas checks add cost, so a lot of shooters try to avoid them if they can.

Probably the most important thing for shooting lead without leading is a smooth bore surface. I've used firelapping with some success for this, but I also believe in minimalist intervention, and Ken Mollohan wrote up a fire polishing method using JB Bore Compound that is in the middle of a multi-author article on firelapping at the LASC site that you might want to read.

Second, my only lever gun is a Marlin 1895, and I find it prefers lead bullets to be 0.002" over groove diameter for best accuracy and least leading. A number of other lever gun shooters have found the same, and many revolver shooters have found the same. Some of the premium cast bullet companies, like Beartooth Bullets, will size to order.

Several schools of thought exist on the subject of how hard the bullets should be. There's information on the LASC site you should read.

[johnroy]

Thank you Unclenick. I am on the way.

[johnroy]

Chris: No. I am talking about chunks and strips. The leading on the crown came off in two pieces. Really thin but it was a layer that existed after removal. About 4 hours of steady work to clean the barrel. Little pieces of lead on patches. What I would call some serious leading.

[Axelwik]

To prevent leading you need a bore with a nice smooth finish, bullets properly sized for that bore (at least 0.001" larger than groove), cast with the proper alloy for the velocity, and the proper lube.

Much of the above is only available to those who cast their own.

[hartcreek]

I have been casting for two deckages and never had leading problems. I have some cowboy action loads in .44 Magnum that I do not gascheck. For everything else I gascheck but for pistols not every bullet for non magnums. For a box of 50 non magnums I use five gaschecked bullets per box.

For magnums and rifles I gascheck every bullet. This year I jumped up to gaschecking and hardcasting for .308 and 30-06. My hardcast and gaschecked 30-06 loads are chronographing at 2600 fps and I am getting no leading.

[Urban_Redneck]

"Gallery loads"

Typically refer to low recoil plinking loads, gas checks wouldn't be needed.

YMMV

[Unclenick]

Johnroy,

In the old days we used to plug a leaded bore and fill it with mercury. After about 15 minutes the lead would amalgamate with the mercury, and we would pour the mercury back out, leaving the amalgam behind. The amalgam is gray and sort of crumbly and a couple of passes with a brush would take it out. However, when the brush bristles exited the bore, they would fling little beads of trapped mercury all over the room. Probably not a good safety situation around pets and small children.

Today you can get something that is kind of equivalent, but safer. The Wipe Out brand line includes a product called No-Lead. You patch it into the gun and wait an hour. When you come back, the lead has been converted to a crumbly black compound that is so weak and friable that it just patches out with a cloth patch. I went over to this method some time ago. A couple of guys using No-Lead have reported that really heavy deposits took more than one application. I haven't run into that, and when you have a smooth bore, you probably won't either.

I note some negative reviews of No-Lead on Midway in addition to my own positive one. This seems due to a bad batch, and, in one instance, due to rust appearing overnight. That strikes me as odd. I haven't noticed an issue with that, but I haven't tried leaving it in anything that long. Also, some folks will use incompatible cleaning products without removing the first one completely first.

The other method that's popular these days is to buy a Chore Boy brand copper scouring pad. A strand or two are pulled off a pad and wrapped around an under-sized bore brush and is used with a cleaning rod to scrub the lead out, usually in conjunction with a bore solvent or penetrating oil. The reason for the brand specificity is the Chore Boy is 100% copper, while most copper-colored scouring pads are copper plated steel, which can scratch a bore. However, if you find some other brand that is 100% copper, that'll work, too. Just check that a magnet to be sure it isn't attracted to it. Midway also sells a pad of some other soft metal for the purpose.

One of the better penetrating oils for the above job is Kroil. It's very popular with shooters. Shooter's Choice Lead Remover also works well but costs more. In either case, I have found that if you wet the bore and other leaded areas of the gun with it and let it sit overnight, that gives it a much better chance to penetrate under the lead deposits and make them easier to push out.