Squib troubleshooting, .38 SPL.

indie_rocker · July 25, 2014, 03:43 PM

Had a squib today, obviously. Launched a 125gr FMJ about an inch into my old snub-nose Rossi. But I can't figure out why. There was powder in the case that was blown all over the bench so I don't think much, if any burned. The powder and primers are fresh. 40 rounds of the same batch fired very well before this one. It was the first shot of a set, so recoil didn't mess with bullet depth. I'm looking for opinions of other reloaders as to the cause.

The load is a Rainer 125gr FP over 3.8gr of red dot. C.O.L is 1.440"

Not sure if a pic helps...
Looks like unburned powder in cylinder that squib was fired from. Inside of the cartridge looked similar.

WESHOOT2 · July 25, 2014, 05:06 PM

Perhaps the bullet crept forward under recoil, increasing combustion area sufficiently to allow improper ignition.

When using plated bullets in 38/357 I resize the cases with LEE 'U' dies, and apply a firm roll crimp using the superior Redding Profile Crimp Die.

indie_rocker · July 25, 2014, 05:17 PM

The squib was shot 1 of 5 in a fresh cylinder though.

I'm wondering if it may have been tumbling media in the flash hole? I use walnut. Tumble, size/depeime then a quick tumble again to get any loose residue in primer pocket.

Is my OCD backfiring on me?

g.willikers · July 25, 2014, 05:20 PM

All guesses, but,
How were the cases cleaned before reloading them?
Tumbling?
If so there's always the chance of a clogged primer hole.
Washing and drying?
If so, there's the possibility that the case could have been damp inside.
What kind of powder measure is used?
It's always possible that the errant round might not have gotten a good powder charge.
Or maybe the Reloading Gods were just messing with ya'.
Good thing you caught it, though, and didn't keep shooting.

WESHOOT2 · July 25, 2014, 05:22 PM

No; you CAN get flash hole interference.

You might have insufficient case tension.

And it's possible that your charge didn't drop correctly, leaving too little powder in the case.
'Dots' can bridge.

(I never deprime then clean.)

Jim Watson · July 25, 2014, 05:24 PM

I had one like that.
I concluded that I had seated 125s to the same OAL as my usual 158s, and when I brought the gun up from low ready, the powder was way forward away from the primer flash.
Same load with the OAL down to where it should have been for the light bullet shot fine.

g.willikers · July 25, 2014, 05:36 PM

That's what toilet paper is for.
To keep the powder down in the case, where it belongs.

indie_rocker · July 25, 2014, 05:55 PM

Thanks for the input everyone!

chris in va · July 25, 2014, 09:36 PM

Switch to a bulkier, 'fluffier' powder like Unique. Red Dot doesn't fill the case much and is very fast burning.

GP100man · July 25, 2014, 10:24 PM

My opinion is either A, primer flash was insufficent or B,low powder.

I`m bettin on the flash hole plugged tite .

BOOMST1CK · July 25, 2014, 10:53 PM

My money is on plugged flash hole. I never tumble after depriming, and I never clean primer pockets on hand gun cases.

Hammerhead · July 26, 2014, 12:29 AM

I've seen HS-7 fail to ignite in .38 spl, but never a fast flake powder.

Must have been the media from the second tumbling.

You would think Red Dot would ignite regardless of how light the charge is. Red Dot is a favorite for cast bullets in rifle cartridges where it can be a good distance from the primer and still fire and give uniform ballistics.

indie_rocker · July 26, 2014, 12:43 AM

I'm gonna agree with the flash hole plugged theory. I know Red Dot is near the top of the burn rate list and should ignite easily. It's no mystery that handgun powders are hard to come by, so the RD is what I could get a hold of. Found that I rather like it for the snub nose loads. Metering is a bit frustrating at times, but it works. With that said, it does seem like the primer flash didn't get the powder burning.

I'll pay much more attention to the flash holes and stop tumbling the second time. Thanks everyone, this has helped a newb very much!

pete2 · July 27, 2014, 08:32 PM

The only squibs I've had like this was with plated Berrys 148 HBWC bullets. The load was 3.4 231 in .357 cases. This is the same load I shoot with Hornady Lead 148 HBWC. I sold the plated bullets. I probably could have increased the powder charge and cured the problem but it didn't seem worth the trouble besides lighter recoil is better for a target load. Lead works great in the .38. I currently shoot 158 Speer Lead with 3.3 of WST, shoots great very little leading.

1stmar · July 27, 2014, 08:40 PM

Are you using a progressive reloader? How are you charging cases?

indie_rocker · July 28, 2014, 05:02 PM

I'm using a single stage Lee and weighing just about every round, red dot doesn't meter well.

1stmar · July 28, 2014, 06:42 PM

Those that aren't measured are charged how? What dispenser are you usung?

indie_rocker · July 29, 2014, 08:15 AM

Sorry about being so vague. I've been reloading for about a year and use the very basic Lee Challenger Breech Lock Anniversary Kit. The Lee Perfect Powder Measure is used to charge cases directly when they're not weighed. When charges are weighed, powder is dispensed into the Lee Safety Scale tray, weighed, then funneled into the case when the appropriate weight is reached.

I have found that environmental factors affect how Red Dot meters. If it's incredibly humid, it doesn't do so well and almost every charge is weighed. If however, the powder is cooperating on a particular day and I can get 10 weighed charges in a row to meter correctly, I'll start weighing every 5 charges.

Once I have one or two reloading trays filled with charged cases, I'll go over them all with a bright flashlight to visually check for any obvious over/under charges. If any are found that just don't look right, the powder is dumped and a new charge weighed.

1stmar · July 29, 2014, 08:24 AM

Ok, I guess that leaves the flash hole. Though I suspect if there was media in there you would have felt it when seating the primer. The case was not split, correct?

indie_rocker · July 29, 2014, 08:49 AM

Correct, the case was not split. I was able to pick it out from the batch that it was tumbled with after the range. It had little resistance when ran through the size/deprime die because it never built enough pressure to expand the case, that's my guess at least. It looked fine, like every other case that was fired. I threw it in the recycle bucket though... It has bad juju.

Anyways, I use walnut media and think that it may have plugged the flash hole. If that happened, I wouldn't have felt that when seating the primer, right?

From yours and everyone else's responses, that's all I can come up with. I'll be giving brass an extra shake or two in the sifter after tumbling and will not be tumbling a second time after depriming.

**Unclenick** · July 29, 2014, 09:25 AM

A small piece of media stuck in the hole at the primer cup side would be centered over the middle of the primer anvil, which is a depression, and so might cause no seating interference. I am surprised the primer didn't just blow it through, though. Were their any carbon marks around the primer itself to suggest gas leaking out around its edges?

Visual inspection of charges is a pretty good indication none were undercharged.

Powder contamination was mentioned earlier. I had a minor cold one time and had a drop fall from my nose into a case I was inspecting, boogering the powder up. A drop of perspiration would do the same thing, albeit not so literally.

I put your load into QuickLOAD. If it's database is correct that your bullet is 0.515" long, then you should have about 47% case fill of the space under your bullet with your COL, and there's no way powder position alone should have affected your round so dramatically. Lots of common target loads have loading densities in that range. It's too small for rifle powders, but quick pistol powders don't usually mind. However, if you combine powder being forward against the bullet with a plugged flash hole, perhaps the two in unison would conspire to delay delivery of primer gas enough to let it cool some and produce this result.

Anyone who has fired an uncharged pistol round knows a primer makes enough gas to unseat a bullet just fine, and if the powder burn doesn't get underway until after that unseating has started, the expansion plus the gas leaking around the bullet can prevent pressure from building. BTW, you didn't mention your primer. Magnum primers, because they make a larger volume of gas, can actually worsen this problem in some instances, causing lower rather than the expected higher peak pressure.

indie_rocker · July 29, 2014, 09:39 AM

@Unclenick
There was no indication of pressure leakage around the primer (WSP). Powder being forward AND plugged flash hole is interesting! It was the first shot of a set, so the powder was no doubt forward in the case.

bedbugbilly · July 29, 2014, 06:58 PM

My first and only squib (so far) in any of my 38s was in my Smith Model 36. In my case, I know it was an empty case. I use CCI primers and the primer alone drove a lead cast 150 gr. (they drop about 150 gr. from my mold) .358 wad cutter into the barrel about a 1/4 beyond the forcing cone/rifling junction.

I'm guessing that, for whatever reason, your powder didn't burn. Contamination? If you are showing unburned powder - what did it sound like? A "pffffft" or a low bang? Mine sounded like a "pffffft" and if nothing else, it taught me what power a primer has as far as creating pressure in a casing.

The good thing is that you caught it - and, you may never know for sure just what did cause it.

If a person reloads . . . it's not a case of "never" or "if" you'll have a squib - it's a case of "when". Mine taught me a very valuable lesson . . . never let someone interrupt you when reloading and if they do . . dump the one you're working on and start over.

indie_rocker · July 29, 2014, 07:06 PM

The 125gr I was shooting went about the same distance into my barrel, maybe a little more past the forcing cone. It was definitely a "pffffft", a couple adult words came out of my mouth... I knew it was a squib before I even opened the cylinder. It had no umph to it at all. This was my first squib, I've learned a lot and you're absolutely right, I'll probably never know exactly what caused it. I do know that much more attention will be given to the QC department... Those guys (me) are slacking.

July 25, 2014, 03:43 PM	#1
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	Squib troubleshooting, .38 SPL. Had a squib today, obviously. Launched a 125gr FMJ about an inch into my old snub-nose Rossi. But I can't figure out why. There was powder in the case that was blown all over the bench so I don't think much, if any burned. The powder and primers are fresh. 40 rounds of the same batch fired very well before this one. It was the first shot of a set, so recoil didn't mess with bullet depth. I'm looking for opinions of other reloaders as to the cause. The load is a Rainer 125gr FP over 3.8gr of red dot. C.O.L is 1.440" Not sure if a pic helps... Looks like unburned powder in cylinder that squib was fired from. Inside of the cartridge looked similar.

July 25, 2014, 05:06 PM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	perhaps I'm right. or not.... Perhaps the bullet crept forward under recoil, increasing combustion area sufficiently to allow improper ignition. When using plated bullets in 38/357 I resize the cases with LEE 'U' dies, and apply a firm roll crimp using the superior Redding Profile Crimp Die.

July 25, 2014, 05:22 PM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	my bad; reading comprehension 101 error No; you CAN get flash hole interference. You might have insufficient case tension. And it's possible that your charge didn't drop correctly, leaving too little powder in the case. 'Dots' can bridge. (I never deprime then clean.)

July 29, 2014, 09:25 AM	#21
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,733	A small piece of media stuck in the hole at the primer cup side would be centered over the middle of the primer anvil, which is a depression, and so might cause no seating interference. I am surprised the primer didn't just blow it through, though. Were their any carbon marks around the primer itself to suggest gas leaking out around its edges? Visual inspection of charges is a pretty good indication none were undercharged. Powder contamination was mentioned earlier. I had a minor cold one time and had a drop fall from my nose into a case I was inspecting, boogering the powder up. A drop of perspiration would do the same thing, albeit not so literally. I put your load into QuickLOAD. If it's database is correct that your bullet is 0.515" long, then you should have about 47% case fill of the space under your bullet with your COL, and there's no way powder position alone should have affected your round so dramatically. Lots of common target loads have loading densities in that range. It's too small for rifle powders, but quick pistol powders don't usually mind. However, if you combine powder being forward against the bullet with a plugged flash hole, perhaps the two in unison would conspire to delay delivery of primer gas enough to let it cool some and produce this result. Anyone who has fired an uncharged pistol round knows a primer makes enough gas to unseat a bullet just fine, and if the powder burn doesn't get underway until after that unseating has started, the expansion plus the gas leaking around the bullet can prevent pressure from building. BTW, you didn't mention your primer. Magnum primers, because they make a larger volume of gas, can actually worsen this problem in some instances, causing lower rather than the expected higher peak pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 29, 2014, 06:58 PM	#23
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,290	My first and only squib (so far) in any of my 38s was in my Smith Model 36. In my case, I know it was an empty case. I use CCI primers and the primer alone drove a lead cast 150 gr. (they drop about 150 gr. from my mold) .358 wad cutter into the barrel about a 1/4 beyond the forcing cone/rifling junction. I'm guessing that, for whatever reason, your powder didn't burn. Contamination? If you are showing unburned powder - what did it sound like? A "pffffft" or a low bang? Mine sounded like a "pffffft" and if nothing else, it taught me what power a primer has as far as creating pressure in a casing. The good thing is that you caught it - and, you may never know for sure just what did cause it. If a person reloads . . . it's not a case of "never" or "if" you'll have a squib - it's a case of "when". Mine taught me a very valuable lesson . . . never let someone interrupt you when reloading and if they do . . dump the one you're working on and start over. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 25, 2014, 05:17 PM	#3
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	The squib was shot 1 of 5 in a fresh cylinder though. I'm wondering if it may have been tumbling media in the flash hole? I use walnut. Tumble, size/depeime then a quick tumble again to get any loose residue in primer pocket. Is my OCD backfiring on me?

July 25, 2014, 05:20 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	All guesses, but, How were the cases cleaned before reloading them? Tumbling? If so there's always the chance of a clogged primer hole. Washing and drying? If so, there's the possibility that the case could have been damp inside. What kind of powder measure is used? It's always possible that the errant round might not have gotten a good powder charge. Or maybe the Reloading Gods were just messing with ya'. Good thing you caught it, though, and didn't keep shooting.

July 25, 2014, 05:24 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,168	I had one like that. I concluded that I had seated 125s to the same OAL as my usual 158s, and when I brought the gun up from low ready, the powder was way forward away from the primer flash. Same load with the OAL down to where it should have been for the light bullet shot fine.

July 25, 2014, 05:36 PM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	That's what toilet paper is for. To keep the powder down in the case, where it belongs.

July 25, 2014, 05:55 PM	#8
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	Thanks for the input everyone!

July 25, 2014, 09:36 PM	#9
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Switch to a bulkier, 'fluffier' powder like Unique. Red Dot doesn't fill the case much and is very fast burning.

July 25, 2014, 10:24 PM	#10
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	My opinion is either A, primer flash was insufficent or B,low powder. I`m bettin on the flash hole plugged tite .

July 25, 2014, 10:53 PM	#11
BOOMST1CK Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2014 Posts: 117	My money is on plugged flash hole. I never tumble after depriming, and I never clean primer pockets on hand gun cases.

July 26, 2014, 12:29 AM	#12
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	I've seen HS-7 fail to ignite in .38 spl, but never a fast flake powder. Must have been the media from the second tumbling. You would think Red Dot would ignite regardless of how light the charge is. Red Dot is a favorite for cast bullets in rifle cartridges where it can be a good distance from the primer and still fire and give uniform ballistics.

July 26, 2014, 12:43 AM	#13
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	I'm gonna agree with the flash hole plugged theory. I know Red Dot is near the top of the burn rate list and should ignite easily. It's no mystery that handgun powders are hard to come by, so the RD is what I could get a hold of. Found that I rather like it for the snub nose loads. Metering is a bit frustrating at times, but it works. With that said, it does seem like the primer flash didn't get the powder burning. I'll pay much more attention to the flash holes and stop tumbling the second time. Thanks everyone, this has helped a newb very much!

July 27, 2014, 08:32 PM	#14
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,610	The only squibs I've had like this was with plated Berrys 148 HBWC bullets. The load was 3.4 231 in .357 cases. This is the same load I shoot with Hornady Lead 148 HBWC. I sold the plated bullets. I probably could have increased the powder charge and cured the problem but it didn't seem worth the trouble besides lighter recoil is better for a target load. Lead works great in the .38. I currently shoot 158 Speer Lead with 3.3 of WST, shoots great very little leading.

July 27, 2014, 08:40 PM	#15
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Are you using a progressive reloader? How are you charging cases?

July 28, 2014, 05:02 PM	#16
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	I'm using a single stage Lee and weighing just about every round, red dot doesn't meter well.

July 28, 2014, 06:42 PM	#17
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Those that aren't measured are charged how? What dispenser are you usung?

July 29, 2014, 08:15 AM	#18
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	Sorry about being so vague. I've been reloading for about a year and use the very basic Lee Challenger Breech Lock Anniversary Kit. The Lee Perfect Powder Measure is used to charge cases directly when they're not weighed. When charges are weighed, powder is dispensed into the Lee Safety Scale tray, weighed, then funneled into the case when the appropriate weight is reached. I have found that environmental factors affect how Red Dot meters. If it's incredibly humid, it doesn't do so well and almost every charge is weighed. If however, the powder is cooperating on a particular day and I can get 10 weighed charges in a row to meter correctly, I'll start weighing every 5 charges. Once I have one or two reloading trays filled with charged cases, I'll go over them all with a bright flashlight to visually check for any obvious over/under charges. If any are found that just don't look right, the powder is dumped and a new charge weighed.

July 29, 2014, 08:24 AM	#19
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Ok, I guess that leaves the flash hole. Though I suspect if there was media in there you would have felt it when seating the primer. The case was not split, correct?

July 29, 2014, 08:49 AM	#20
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	Correct, the case was not split. I was able to pick it out from the batch that it was tumbled with after the range. It had little resistance when ran through the size/deprime die because it never built enough pressure to expand the case, that's my guess at least. It looked fine, like every other case that was fired. I threw it in the recycle bucket though... It has bad juju. Anyways, I use walnut media and think that it may have plugged the flash hole. If that happened, I wouldn't have felt that when seating the primer, right? From yours and everyone else's responses, that's all I can come up with. I'll be giving brass an extra shake or two in the sifter after tumbling and will not be tumbling a second time after depriming.

July 29, 2014, 09:39 AM	#22
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	@Unclenick There was no indication of pressure leakage around the primer (WSP). Powder being forward AND plugged flash hole is interesting! It was the first shot of a set, so the powder was no doubt forward in the case.

July 29, 2014, 07:06 PM	#24
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	The 125gr I was shooting went about the same distance into my barrel, maybe a little more past the forcing cone. It was definitely a "pffffft", a couple adult words came out of my mouth... I knew it was a squib before I even opened the cylinder. It had no umph to it at all. This was my first squib, I've learned a lot and you're absolutely right, I'll probably never know exactly what caused it. I do know that much more attention will be given to the QC department... Those guys (me) are slacking.