After all, Glock isn't that innovative, is it?

[simonrichter]

First of all, don't get me wrong, I'm the "Glock - what else?" kind of person in any case. However, it occurs to me that Glock had actually ONE real innovation, namely the G17 (which was, as we all know, in fact more a clever combination of features already introduced by that time than an actual innovation as such). Everything that came after was merely changing calibers, frame sizes an minor details. Compared with a FN FiveSeven, a KelTec PMR30 or the broad variety of, e.g., Beretta weapons (which are not just size / caliber alternations of the same gun), this isn't too much compared to the reputation as the "technology leader" Glock holds (or has held for a long time in any case).

Any opposite views on this assessment?

[zTimbo]

If it ain't broke don't fix it!

[thedudeabides]

My G30 never jams, eats what you feed it, has been through sheer hell, (even dumped in seawater). I have tried to kill it with +P ammo, reloads, not cleaning it, dropping it... but have given up.

The trigger feel is awful and the frame flexes with my powerful grip.

It holds 10+1 rounds of 45 ACP.

I have never wanted to hate a gun more and found no reason to.

[wpsdlrg]

My S&W 3rd generation pistols never jamb, they eat anything I feed them like candy, are very accurate, aren't made of plastic....and cost less than a new Glock (both now and in their day). They also don't have undercut chambers, so they are a lot easier on brass (important to us reloaders). So what ? Personal preference. The Glockies like Glocks, others like what they like (I guess I am a "Smithie" ?).

None of us is better than the other, just different. Vive la difference, I say.

I do get my shorts a bit rumpled when people talk about "Glock Perfection" (a true load)....or refer to Glock as "the technology leader" (also a big load of dung). The only true innovation that can be FAIRLY credited to Glock is the use of thermoplastics. An important step, no question (which I appreciate, even though I prefer all-metal guns myself). But, other than that, Glock invented nothing. Oh, I do suppose that one could say that Glock WAS "a technology leader".....for about 3 minutes. They were first to the market with this new style of pistol. But, none of the encapsulated technology (except the use of plastics) was actually anything new.

Nevertheless, to each his own. Variety is GOOD. Glocks don't happen to be my line of country....but, they certainly are to many. More power to 'em.

[Sevens]

I have never wanted to hate a gun more and found no reason to.

Still looking for a reason? It's friggin' horrible looking. If you gave Stevie Wonder a handful of poo and told him to craft a good lookin' handgun and do it in 45 seconds, it'd probably look like a Glock.

YES, I can talk, my EDC is a Glock 29. It's horrendous looking. Taking a Dremel to that idiotic hook on the front of the trigger guard made it look like road rash -- and improved it's looks as well as it's function. Over 4k through it, none of which have been "FBI Lite" or other puthyboy pseudo-10mm rounds through it. The gun is as reliable as ANYTHING I own, and I'd trust my life to it FIRST.

If everything goes as planned, I'll never EVER buy another Glock.
I don't EVER want another Glock.
But I don't ever wanna lose this ugly G29.

We get along tremendously well.

[SpareMag]

Glock's innovations are two. One has been noted: cheap manufacturing of a high-quality weapon, from a former radiator manufacturer.

The second is marketing. It was a brilliant stroke to go after the U.S. LEA market, offering steeply discounted, but still profitable prices, and letting LEOs become unwitting Glock representatives.

Finally, Glock had a knack (not sure it still does since the marketing guy left...) of turning every potential into a positive. The "invisible to airport x-ray" controversy was a six-month unpaid multi-million dollar ad campaign of which Glock took full advantage.

Simple design, cheap to produce and brilliantly marketed...oh, yeah...the Glock also just happens to work. They deserve their success. But...what after Gaston?

[arch308]

Say what you will but no gun since the 1911 has spawned more copies/clones. They revolutionized the gun industry (for better or worse ) with their inexpensive designs that are pretty bullet proof. I actually like the look of glocks. Not as much as a good revolver or 1911 but I do admire the simplicity of the design and lack of embelishments.
There were plastic guns before Glock but Glock made them mainstream.


JMO

[TxFlyFish]

Repeat after me:

Kel Tec Perfection
Ruger Perfection
Hi Point Perfection
Taurus Perfection
Bersa Perfection
Jimenez Perfection
Rossi Perfection

Now say this really quick

Glock Perfection Glock Perfection Glock Perfection
Glock Perfection Glock Perfection Glock Perfection
Glock Perfection Glock is Perfect Glock Perfection
Glock Perfection Glock Perfection Glock Perfection

[Pond, James Pond]

From the little I know I'd say their design had innovations, even if not innovative in and of itself.

As was already said, they chose hydrocarbon polymers as the basis for their frame which is cheap to manipulate as well as giving an end product that fares far better against the elements than many all-steel guns.

The other aspect for me would be the use, or rather lack of use, of an external safety, yet still having a gun that is safe to handle, chambered, provided you observe "the rules". I've not heard it said that another gun featured this before the Glock, but I may be wrong.

When people say "if it isn't broken, then why fix it?", I'm inclined to agree. They haven't tried to with 1911s, much, the CZ 75 is still being sold and hasn't been superceded. If someone walked out Gen 1 Glock 17, are they suddenly going to be inadequately armed? No. Now if gun technology moved on to such a degree that the Glock performed to antiquated standards, or they themselves had an idea that would revolutionise the gun market, then fine they'd need to change, but if they did so now, just for the sake of it, then they'd risk loosing their customer-base who like their guns precisely for what they are now: remember the Coca Cola recipe change debacle?

As for the aesthetics: I don't mind saying that I like them, personally. I find beauty in function, and as I've owned my G19 and I've grown as a shooter with it, I find it kinder on the eyes back when I bought it simply as a good gun that turned up at a great price. All the same, the lines are simple yet distinctive: they've made a gun all of whose variations are instantly recognisable: it is part of the brand image, a bit like Converse All-Stars or H.D...

I certainly can't see why people get irritated by either their slogan or marketing success: after all what part of modern life, particuarly in the USA, is not built on marketing? Everyone does it... why single out Glocks?...

[5.56RifleGuy]

"The only true innovation that can be FAIRLY credited to Glock is the use of thermoplastics"

Nope. The HK VP70 was the first Poly pistol. It didn't do great, but it was the first.

However, he did introduce ferritic nitrocarburizing as an anti corrosion coating for firearm parts.

[Sevens]

Gotta love how someone always strolls in to a Glock thread to unveil the VP70 as if he's introducing a whole forum of gun cranks to shocking new information that nobody's yet heard.

The argument being made is not that Glock was the FIRST, but Glock can certainly be credited with making it mainstream and convincing the world that it would work on a large scale.

Nobody copied that HK abomination. Just about everyone has attempted to copy the Glock.

Why don't we ever have guys strolling in waxing nostalgic over the Remington Nylon 66 in Glock threads?!

[5.56RifleGuy]

Gotta love someone that comes in to make a rude comment for no reason.

I replied specifically to the quoted text that came from wpsdlrg.

I also mentioned that the VP70 wasn't a success.

I didn't mention the Nylon 66 because it isn't a handgun.

Sorry that you know everything though, some people do not.

Feel free to not reply next time.

[JimmyR]

Originally Posted by simonrichter

First of all, don't get me wrong, I'm the "Glock - what else?" kind of person in any case. However, it occurs to me that Glock had actually ONE real innovation, namely the G17 (which was, as we all know, in fact more a clever combination of features already introduced by that time than an actual innovation as such). Everything that came after was merely changing calibers, frame sizes an minor details.

I think what you dismiss as the lack of innovation is exactly what is so innovative about it. Glock created their weapons in series, and matched them to each other respectively. A FS Glock will feel about the same regardless of caliber, and can often use the same accessories. A G17's mags can be used in one's G26. They are so alike that they created a weapon SYSTEM, not just a pistol. The single Glock is just a piece of the truly innovative system they created.

Full disclosure: I do not own Glocks, shoot Glocks, or even really like Glocks.

[dayman]

Wasn't the VP-70 an SMG?
SO you could say that the G17 was the first polymer semi-auto pistol?

As far as how innovative it is, I think innovation is more than just using new materials/parts. The G17 was innovative because of how it combined things into a pistol that, while it may not be truly "perfect" in the true sense of the word, is a perfect fit for what a lot of people are looking for in a handgun.

It's my understanding that the Glock was the first pistol to have many of the features we now consider fairly standard all in one gun - take down lever as apposed to pins you have to pull, limited parts for ease of cleaning, captured recoil spring, trigger safety, and obviously the polymer frame.
I imagine the reason Glocks haven't changed significantly over the past 20 years is that they haven't had to. At this point they make basically the same gun they did 20 years ago, and basically the same gun everyone else makes today.

In all honesty I don't think there have been many major innovations since the G17 came out that have outdated the basic design.
Even the PM30 and FiveseveN are pretty much run of the mill - they just shoot new/different cartridges. But I don't see the firearm industry - or gun owners jumping all that fast to get on the .22mag/5.7mm bandwagons.
Maybe Glock hasn't had any major innovations since their first design, but I'd submit that nobody else really has either.
There are some fantastic guns out there, but aside from ergonomics and aesthetics most of them are variations of a couple basic themes.

Most of the truly innovative designs - like say, the Boburg, or the Chiappa Rhino - that have come out recently are probably never going to be more than niche guns. They don't present enough of an advantage over the current standards to really revolutionize anything - The Rhino doesn't tend to appeal to people who actually buy revolvers, and the Boburg's design is pointless in anything other than a micro-compact.

Eventually there will be a true "next big thing" (a reliable/affordable caseless design?) and - as much as I like them - statistically it's not likely to come from Glock. However, that hasn't happened yet, and lots of people still like/buy Glocks, so it wouldn't be a great move for them to change.

[wpsdlrg]

"After all, Glock isn't that innovative, is it"



But Glock enthusiasts certainly ARE, aren't they ?

[5.56RifleGuy]

"Wasn't the VP-70 an SMG?"

Yes and no. It had a sholder stock that could be attached that would make it capable of burst fire. Other than that, it was just a regular pistol. The civilian version had the stock feature deleated.

Interesting design, but it didnt really go anywhere.

[kemassey]

That sandal holster is awesome. I think I could make one for cheap.

[Gats Italian]

It's my understanding that the Glock was the first pistol to have many of the features we now consider fairly standard all in one gun - take down lever as apposed to pins you have to pull, limited parts for ease of cleaning, captured recoil spring, trigger safety, and obviously the polymer frame.
I imagine the reason Glocks haven't changed significantly over the past 20 years is that they haven't had to. At this point they make basically the same gun they did 20 years ago, and basically the same gun everyone else makes today.

In all honesty I don't think there have been many major innovations since the G17 came out that have outdated the basic design.

The Glock was by far not the first one with a take down lever. There are many pistols with "captive" take down levers instead of removable pins or slide stops that predate the Glock 17. These are as diverse as the Makarov's trigger guard pull down, to the rotating lever of the Beretta 92, Sig P22X series, and the third gen S&W autos, to the push button on the HK P7.

Speaking of that last pistol, it had a non captive recoil spring around the barrel and a captive one below the barrel surrounding the gas cylinder, again, long before the G17.

Only three things appeared in the G17 that hadn't been around before—the two piece trigger—which is a dubious "innovation," but has been copied, the tennifer finish, which has been copied, and the take down tabs, which aren't really any easier than any other "modern" take down system, and has one aspect, pulling the trigger for disassembly, which has been avoided by everyone.

Appearing in prior handguns:
Short recoil operating system: 1911
Tilt barrel hood lock-up on the ejection port: SIG
Striker fired operation: Steyr Hahn M1911
Polymer handgun frame: HK
Polygonal rifling: HK
Double column magazine: BHP
"American" mag release: 1911
Complete detail strip without even a punch: 1911

[Bluestarlizzard]

The VP70z was the first to have an all polymer frame

But who has one? It came, it burped and it disappeared. It's relavancy is minor in the historical skeem of things.

Glock came out and changed the game that no one has changed since, our god, JMB came out with his 1911 and it was adopted, modifed into the 1911A1 and manufactured at large.
No one has signifgently changed the game again since. As with the 1911 design, it's been altered, improved, idealized and prettied up by everyone and their mother, but still, it's all plastic handguns with an overall model altered to various specifics and sold in cookie cutter fasion. There have been some burps since, but nothing is changing the overall contribution of Gaston Glock.

I predict the next game changer will be in terms of ammunition. There's been a lot of burps in that direction lately.

[Gats Italian]

The VP70 was on the market for 19 years. That's not a blip.

[Bluestarlizzard]

First of all, I said "burp" not "blip"

Second, 19 years *is* a burp by comparison. If it was more then a burp, it would still be on the market with new and improved models every few years.

Think BIG picture.

[Gats Italian]

I wasn't quoting you, so chill out. Without the VP70 pioneering plastic, even if more in the gun press saw it than did actual customers, the Glock may not have been as accepted as it became.

I don't know and you don't either, so don't be so quick to dismiss the trailblazer in favor of the settler.

[Bluestarlizzard]

Oh, dear. I seem to have offended the HK adoration train.

I'm so very very very sorry to the bottem of my little wittle heart.

HK burps often. Occasionally they have some really intresting ones. Hello, Squeezecocker
But the VP70Z had more issues then the inovation could overcome.
Glocks got only one that comes to mind, and that's the sensitivity to limp wrists.

The what haves, could haves arn't under discussion. What did happen is. Face facts, HK didn't change the market or the world with their first foray into the world of plastic, Glock did.
Glock picked up an a whole lot of bits and peices, put them all together an viola! We have the bases for the 2nd pistol to change the world. Love 'em or hate 'em, this is what Glock did.
That is innovation, and that's the innovation that matters.

[dayman]

has one aspect, pulling the trigger for disassembly, which has been avoided by everyone

The only other striker fired guns I have are an XD, and a PPQ and they both have trigger pulls as part of the take down.


To quote myself

It's my understanding that the Glock was the first pistol to have many of the features we now consider fairly standard all in one gun

emphasis added.

I wasn't saying the Glock was the first gun with any one of those features, I was saying it was the first with all of them.
I can't think of a gun that's come out in the past 100 years that isn't mostly a collection of recycled/borrowed ideas. And Glock was the first company to put together the combination that most people seem to want these days.
Whether you personally like Glocks, you can't rationally deny that Glocks, and other very similar packages (I'm talking user interface as much as mechanical design) that have come out since - like the XD, M&P, SR line, etc - control the lions share of the semi-auto market.
Does that make Gocks the best? No.
Does that make Glocks "perfection"? No.
But it certainly makes the Glock 17 an innovative design.

[carguychris]

My S&W 3rd generation pistols... cost less than a new Glock (...in their day).

Actually... no.

MSRP's in 1992, from Handguns '92, published by DBI Books and edited by Jack Lewis:

Glock 17: $579.95
Glock 17L: $963.15 (yowzah!)
Glock 19: $579.95
Glock 20: $638.49
Glock 21: $638.49
Glock 22: $579.95
Glock 23: $579.95

Now the closest equivalent 3rd-gen 'Smiths, fixed-sight prices quoted:

5903: $636.00
5904: $592.00
5906: $652.00
6904: $561.00
6906: $618.00
1006: $747.00
4506: $714.00
4006: $708.00
4014: $629.00

As you can see, the only 3rd-gen S&W that undercuts a kinda-sorta-equal Glock is the M6904. The 9mm 59-series and 69-series are close; the .40S&W, .45ACP, and 10mm pistols, less so.

Admittedly, I'm quoting MSRP, so things may have been different once dealer discounts were factored in. However, almost all of the S&W 3rd-gens would require a substantial markdown to match MSRP of a Glock.

Just for comparison purposes, from the same book:

Beretta 92FS: $630.00
Colt MkIV / Series 80, blue finish: $639.95
HK P7M13: $1,159.00 (yowzah!)
Ruger P85, blue: $390.50
SIG P226, 9mm, blue: $780.00
Star 30M: $495.00