.223 Reloading Help - Page 2

browninghunter86 · February 18, 2012, 09:59 AM

thanks for the info. I am looking forn groups that are together and do not look like shotgun blast down range. Softball size groups would be acceptable for me I believe @ 100yds

browninghunter86 · February 19, 2012, 02:37 AM

SS109 M855 for self defense or FMJBTs? Seeing some good deals online for pulled bullets but not sure which to stock up on?

Jimro · February 19, 2012, 03:53 PM

Legal issues aside, 55gr FMJBTs for self defense. They have a better chance of yawing in tissue and breaking apart inside of 75 meters over the 62gr SS109 projectiles. This is only at velocities above 3k as far as I can tell without looking into my notes.

Still, it isn't a guaranteed thing either way, but 55gr gets my vote.

Jimro

HiBC · February 20, 2012, 10:02 AM

I suggest considering what it is you want to do with them.

Plinking rocks and cans,it may not matter much,go cheap.

If you want a bullet that will give very good accuracy and will take advantage of your 1 in 9 twist,the 69gr Nosler Custom Competitions are not terribly expensive and shoot well.I would guess the Hornady and Speer equivalents are similar.IIRC,Speer makes a 62 gr FMJ or HPBT that should work.
The Sierra Matchking is a real good bullet,it costs a little more

If you are shooting varmints,in my experience,none of these match type bullets will give quick clean kills on critters like prairie dogs.

We have settled in on the 60 gr Varmint Ballistic tips as about the heaviest varmint bullet for quicker twists.

My way of saving money on ammo,make high quality ammo,then shoot one careful shot at a time.Shoot like you are shooting a bolt gun,even a single shot.The advantage with an AR is you are immediately ready to shoot again,without working an action or changing your position.

If you have a moderately heavy AR,or a muzzle brake that works,and or a hydraulic buffer,you may be able to keep your eyes open and see the bullet impact.

Even with the cheapest components,shooting budda-budda-budda and making noise and dust is expensive.Sure,it can be fun......

But 100 precision rounds will be cheaper than 200 go-bang rounds.

100 precision shots will get more hits than 200 go-bang shots..

If you are going to load range pick up brass,I suggest you get a Lee Universal decapping die.Decap,then put them in the tumbler till they are clean.Dirty range brass will wear out your dies.

For myself,the prices on new Lake City brass are low enough($140 a thousand) that I choose to eliminate the problems and inconsistencies that will occur with range pick up brass.

Good luck

(oops,you said softball groups at 100yds...OK,cheapest stuff should work.I am disappointed by over half dollar size groups.I prefer a quarter to cover most of them,and that is quite do-able with a good AR,and good ammo)

browninghunter86 · February 21, 2012, 08:47 PM

what are yall using to remove primer crimp?

HiBC · February 22, 2012, 05:52 AM

Remember what I said about brand new virgin Lake City brass for $140 a thousand? No crimps!!

Another option,buy prepped brass from someone like Brassman

(can you tell I don't enjoy removing crimps?)

The Dillon tool is the winner.Its about $100.

Have not tried it,but I have been told a Lyman VLD case chamfering tool will work,about a $13 hand tool.

There are other ways,like reaming.Be aware,if,by whatever method,you cause gas to leak past your primers,it will cut your bolt face pretty quick.

topofffun · February 22, 2012, 12:14 PM

I have had great luck with 27.5 gns of Varget and a Hornady 55gn flat base ballistic tip.

browninghunter86 · February 24, 2012, 10:02 AM

Anyone use the RCBS primer pocket swager?

HiBC · February 25, 2012, 07:36 AM

The RCBS tool works,for a while.The die sees pretty high loads,all taken by the spindle threads.Eventually the threads fail.Not saying you can't get some good use,but i would not call it a volume tool.

As I recall,a spindle fits through the neck,and is a punch that bears on the inside the case.The primer swage fits in the press ram like a shellholder.A stripper cup fits over the swage.The swage gets stuck in the primer pocket in use,so bringing the ram down bumps the stripper cup on the press body,stripping the brass off the swage.The durability issue is about the punch,and the threads in the top of the die body.The punch has to fit through the case neck,so the threads are not all that robust.I think they are # 10-32,but I don't have one here to look at.

I have not tried this,but the VLD Lyman chamfering tool,for case necks,is about $13.A guy at a gun show told me they do a nice job removing primer crimps.

zxcvbob · February 26, 2012, 06:49 PM

I just bought a Ruger Mini-14 (receiver is stamped .223 Rem but the owners manual says it's really 5.56 NATO) I bought a box of Remington .223 ammo at Walmart, and I've ordered 300 rounds of M855 (62 grain) and 200 rounds of some kind of 55 grain FMJ's, and 200 55-grain SP bullets. It'll be another couple of weeks before I get a chance to shoot it cuz I'm a weather wimp and this is Minnesota.

I have 250 pieces of range pickup .223 brass, and a couple of thousand SR primers. I *thought* I had a jug of AA2230 powder already, but I just checked and it's AA2520.

I know that's a little slow, but will it work with 62 grain projectiles? Or do I really need to use powders on the fast side since the Mini-14 has a similar op-rod mechanism to a Garand?

It'll be at least a month before I really need to start reloading for this one, if I need to order some new powder (WC844?) that's not gonna kill me...

HiBC · February 26, 2012, 09:39 PM

If the 2520 is recomended in the load manual,try it.If its not,save yourself some time.

I would not load a lot of them to start off with.

I suspect you will find it it to be a dirty,gritty fouling load,but i can't say for sure.

browninghunter86 · February 29, 2012, 01:36 PM

from some articles online for the majority do you use regular size dies for AR15 or small base dies?

m&p45acp10+1 · February 29, 2012, 04:51 PM

I have used both. Most times it makes no big differance. Regular full length resizing dies work on most AR fired brass. Some machinegun fired brass can be so bloated it takes the SB die to bump the shoulder back far enough that hte spring back does not take it out of spec.

I have used the RCBS small base die, and Lee Full Length resing die. All rounds fed in the AR rifles they were fired in just the same.

Oh and just to mention it. If you use the Small Base Dies every time your case life is going to be considerably shorter. Usualy the case mouth will end up splitting several reloads before the regularly resized rounds would have.

browninghunter86 · March 2, 2012, 03:27 PM

with ar platform how do you tell when getting close to max pressure or too much headspace?

browninghunter86 · March 19, 2012, 04:29 PM

69gr Matchking or 75 BTHP for defense? Will these be good at expanding fast and not shooting miles through the walls of a house? TAP and Federal LE ammo use similar bullets if not the same.....

What are you loading for this purpose?

browninghunter86 · March 30, 2012, 01:19 PM

Can someone help me with this.......FL sized brass and seated a dummy round no powder and it fits in my magazine. OAL is measuring 2.224". When I chamber it it does fine feels and appears normal. When trying to extract that round it does not want to extract(almost gets completely stuck). This is with the magazine in. When I take magazine out and lock bolt back and chamber by hand then drop bolt and try to extract they work fine....... Any ideas or suggestions here?

Thanks everyone for the help

gdcpony · April 6, 2012, 01:40 PM

Removing crimp options:
1)Pay for a special tool- I never tried it
2)Use a counter sink bit mounted to a drill- My preferred method. You must be careful not to be too aggressive, but ruining a couple pieces of brass learning is cheaper than the tools. It is also pretty fast.
3) Use a deburr/chamfer tool- I have used my Lee, but it is a slow painful process.

Full length vs small base dies
I have never use an SB die just FL, and I have ran all kinds of brass through multiple AR rifles and never had a problem. I have even tried a few necksized rounds and they chambered fine, but try getting them back out if you don't want to shoot them. That involves lots of effort and cursing.

Your problem with extraction sounds similar to two mistakes I have made. The first was the necksizing experiment that failed. The second was when I tried to seat bullets "into the lands" which for some reason caused it too.
If you are FL sizing and within the AOL recommendations the only thing I can think of is a tight chamber/loose brass combination. This will do it. Maybe you DO need a set of SB dies, but I would check other options as you cut your brass life down allot. Maybe you have dents in your brass shoulders? Is your die adjusted properly to actually full length size the brass? If it is misadjusted you would be only necksizing because the brass is not going into the die far enough to get the body of it.

Jimro · April 6, 2012, 08:58 PM

Browninghunter,

One little question about the procedure below...

Quote:

When I chamber it it does fine feels and appears normal. When trying to extract that round it does not want to extract(almost gets completely stuck). This is with the magazine in. When I take magazine out and lock bolt back and chamber by hand then drop bolt and try to extract they work fine

Are you letting the bolt slam forward with and without the magazine?

A follow up question, are you noticing any bulging at the shoulder of the brass?

Jimro

browninghunter86 · April 6, 2012, 09:22 PM

yes I had bolt locked to the rear with 2 bullets in magazine then released bolt forward to catch the bullet and load it.

But tried it again and no issues at all so not sure why it did that the first couple times?

jepp2 · April 6, 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

The RCBS tool works,for a while.The die sees pretty high loads,all taken by the spindle threads.Eventually the threads fail.Not saying you can't get some good use,but i would not call it a volume tool.

Not sure what your definition of "volume" is. I have used the original design RCBS swage tool for over 30 years, have swaged more than 25,000 on it, never bent the rod, and haven't had any problems with spindle threads or anything else. I have a Dillon swage sitting in the box.

Some folks don't follow the manufacturers directions and have a lot of problem with it. Like any swage, you do need to sort by headstamp due to differences in the web thickness.

Jimro · April 6, 2012, 10:09 PM

Browninghunter,

I'm guessing that you caught some debris in between the brass and the chamber wall, it can "dig in" and make things tough to move, or the magazine feed lips scratched the brass enough to make them "grip" the chamber a little.

If the problem goes away with a different magazine that's a good sign, or if the problem just goes away it could mean it was just some brass shavings or whatnot.

Jimro

browninghunter86 · April 6, 2012, 10:55 PM

yeah the brass once I got it out looked like it went through hell

browninghunter86 · May 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

Anyone use the Hornady 60 gr Spire Point or HP bullets? Midway has sale on these and was thinking they could work for self defense. Also saw the Winchester 64 Power Point bullets too

Anyone want to share thoughts or experience

Currently working on 60 gr Vmax load but heard others would do better. My gun did not want to stabalize the 68 BTHP bullets

February 20, 2012, 10:02 AM	#29
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	I suggest considering what it is you want to do with them. Plinking rocks and cans,it may not matter much,go cheap. If you want a bullet that will give very good accuracy and will take advantage of your 1 in 9 twist,the 69gr Nosler Custom Competitions are not terribly expensive and shoot well.I would guess the Hornady and Speer equivalents are similar.IIRC,Speer makes a 62 gr FMJ or HPBT that should work. The Sierra Matchking is a real good bullet,it costs a little more If you are shooting varmints,in my experience,none of these match type bullets will give quick clean kills on critters like prairie dogs. We have settled in on the 60 gr Varmint Ballistic tips as about the heaviest varmint bullet for quicker twists. My way of saving money on ammo,make high quality ammo,then shoot one careful shot at a time.Shoot like you are shooting a bolt gun,even a single shot.The advantage with an AR is you are immediately ready to shoot again,without working an action or changing your position. If you have a moderately heavy AR,or a muzzle brake that works,and or a hydraulic buffer,you may be able to keep your eyes open and see the bullet impact. Even with the cheapest components,shooting budda-budda-budda and making noise and dust is expensive.Sure,it can be fun...... But 100 precision rounds will be cheaper than 200 go-bang rounds. 100 precision shots will get more hits than 200 go-bang shots.. If you are going to load range pick up brass,I suggest you get a Lee Universal decapping die.Decap,then put them in the tumbler till they are clean.Dirty range brass will wear out your dies. For myself,the prices on new Lake City brass are low enough($140 a thousand) that I choose to eliminate the problems and inconsistencies that will occur with range pick up brass. Good luck (oops,you said softball groups at 100yds...OK,cheapest stuff should work.I am disappointed by over half dollar size groups.I prefer a quarter to cover most of them,and that is quite do-able with a good AR,and good ammo) Last edited by HiBC; February 20, 2012 at 10:08 AM.

February 26, 2012, 06:49 PM	#35
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I just bought a Ruger Mini-14 (receiver is stamped .223 Rem but the owners manual says it's really 5.56 NATO) I bought a box of Remington .223 ammo at Walmart, and I've ordered 300 rounds of M855 (62 grain) and 200 rounds of some kind of 55 grain FMJ's, and 200 55-grain SP bullets. It'll be another couple of weeks before I get a chance to shoot it cuz I'm a weather wimp and this is Minnesota. I have 250 pieces of range pickup .223 brass, and a couple of thousand SR primers. I thought I had a jug of AA2230 powder already, but I just checked and it's AA2520. I know that's a little slow, but will it work with 62 grain projectiles? Or do I really need to use powders on the fast side since the Mini-14 has a similar op-rod mechanism to a Garand? It'll be at least a month before I really need to start reloading for this one, if I need to order some new powder (WC844?) that's not gonna kill me... __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

February 29, 2012, 01:36 PM	#37
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Reloading Dies from some articles online for the majority do you use regular size dies for AR15 or small base dies?

February 29, 2012, 04:51 PM	#38
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,947	I have used both. Most times it makes no big differance. Regular full length resizing dies work on most AR fired brass. Some machinegun fired brass can be so bloated it takes the SB die to bump the shoulder back far enough that hte spring back does not take it out of spec. I have used the RCBS small base die, and Lee Full Length resing die. All rounds fed in the AR rifles they were fired in just the same. Oh and just to mention it. If you use the Small Base Dies every time your case life is going to be considerably shorter. Usualy the case mouth will end up splitting several reloads before the regularly resized rounds would have. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

March 19, 2012, 04:29 PM	#40
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Bullets for Defense 69gr Matchking or 75 BTHP for defense? Will these be good at expanding fast and not shooting miles through the walls of a house? TAP and Federal LE ammo use similar bullets if not the same..... What are you loading for this purpose?

February 18, 2012, 09:59 AM	#26
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	thanks for the info. I am looking forn groups that are together and do not look like shotgun blast down range. Softball size groups would be acceptable for me I believe @ 100yds

February 19, 2012, 02:37 AM	#27
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	SS109 M855 for self defense or FMJBTs? Seeing some good deals online for pulled bullets but not sure which to stock up on?

February 19, 2012, 03:53 PM	#28
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Legal issues aside, 55gr FMJBTs for self defense. They have a better chance of yawing in tissue and breaking apart inside of 75 meters over the 62gr SS109 projectiles. This is only at velocities above 3k as far as I can tell without looking into my notes. Still, it isn't a guaranteed thing either way, but 55gr gets my vote. Jimro

February 21, 2012, 08:47 PM	#30
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	what are yall using to remove primer crimp?

February 22, 2012, 05:52 AM	#31
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	Remember what I said about brand new virgin Lake City brass for $140 a thousand? No crimps!! Another option,buy prepped brass from someone like Brassman (can you tell I don't enjoy removing crimps?) The Dillon tool is the winner.Its about $100. Have not tried it,but I have been told a Lyman VLD case chamfering tool will work,about a $13 hand tool. There are other ways,like reaming.Be aware,if,by whatever method,you cause gas to leak past your primers,it will cut your bolt face pretty quick.

February 22, 2012, 12:14 PM	#32
topofffun Member Join Date: March 17, 2009 Posts: 26	I have had great luck with 27.5 gns of Varget and a Hornady 55gn flat base ballistic tip.

February 24, 2012, 10:02 AM	#33
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Anyone use the RCBS primer pocket swager?

February 25, 2012, 07:36 AM	#34
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	The RCBS tool works,for a while.The die sees pretty high loads,all taken by the spindle threads.Eventually the threads fail.Not saying you can't get some good use,but i would not call it a volume tool. As I recall,a spindle fits through the neck,and is a punch that bears on the inside the case.The primer swage fits in the press ram like a shellholder.A stripper cup fits over the swage.The swage gets stuck in the primer pocket in use,so bringing the ram down bumps the stripper cup on the press body,stripping the brass off the swage.The durability issue is about the punch,and the threads in the top of the die body.The punch has to fit through the case neck,so the threads are not all that robust.I think they are # 10-32,but I don't have one here to look at. I have not tried this,but the VLD Lyman chamfering tool,for case necks,is about $13.A guy at a gun show told me they do a nice job removing primer crimps.

February 26, 2012, 09:39 PM	#36
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	If the 2520 is recomended in the load manual,try it.If its not,save yourself some time. I would not load a lot of them to start off with. I suspect you will find it it to be a dirty,gritty fouling load,but i can't say for sure.

March 2, 2012, 03:27 PM	#39
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	with ar platform how do you tell when getting close to max pressure or too much headspace?

March 30, 2012, 01:19 PM	#41
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Rounds not extracting Can someone help me with this.......FL sized brass and seated a dummy round no powder and it fits in my magazine. OAL is measuring 2.224". When I chamber it it does fine feels and appears normal. When trying to extract that round it does not want to extract(almost gets completely stuck). This is with the magazine in. When I take magazine out and lock bolt back and chamber by hand then drop bolt and try to extract they work fine....... Any ideas or suggestions here? Thanks everyone for the help

April 6, 2012, 01:40 PM	#42
gdcpony Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Posts: 28	Removing crimp options: 1)Pay for a special tool- I never tried it 2)Use a counter sink bit mounted to a drill- My preferred method. You must be careful not to be too aggressive, but ruining a couple pieces of brass learning is cheaper than the tools. It is also pretty fast. 3) Use a deburr/chamfer tool- I have used my Lee, but it is a slow painful process. Full length vs small base dies I have never use an SB die just FL, and I have ran all kinds of brass through multiple AR rifles and never had a problem. I have even tried a few necksized rounds and they chambered fine, but try getting them back out if you don't want to shoot them. That involves lots of effort and cursing. Your problem with extraction sounds similar to two mistakes I have made. The first was the necksizing experiment that failed. The second was when I tried to seat bullets "into the lands" which for some reason caused it too. If you are FL sizing and within the AOL recommendations the only thing I can think of is a tight chamber/loose brass combination. This will do it. Maybe you DO need a set of SB dies, but I would check other options as you cut your brass life down allot. Maybe you have dents in your brass shoulders? Is your die adjusted properly to actually full length size the brass? If it is misadjusted you would be only necksizing because the brass is not going into the die far enough to get the body of it.

April 6, 2012, 09:22 PM	#44
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	yes I had bolt locked to the rear with 2 bullets in magazine then released bolt forward to catch the bullet and load it. But tried it again and no issues at all so not sure why it did that the first couple times?

April 6, 2012, 10:09 PM	#46
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Browninghunter, I'm guessing that you caught some debris in between the brass and the chamber wall, it can "dig in" and make things tough to move, or the magazine feed lips scratched the brass enough to make them "grip" the chamber a little. If the problem goes away with a different magazine that's a good sign, or if the problem just goes away it could mean it was just some brass shavings or whatnot. Jimro

April 6, 2012, 10:55 PM	#47
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	yeah the brass once I got it out looked like it went through hell

May 14, 2012, 07:18 PM	#48
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	Defense Bullet Anyone use the Hornady 60 gr Spire Point or HP bullets? Midway has sale on these and was thinking they could work for self defense. Also saw the Winchester 64 Power Point bullets too Anyone want to share thoughts or experience Currently working on 60 gr Vmax load but heard others would do better. My gun did not want to stabalize the 68 BTHP bullets