12 gauge "cutshells"

Denezin · April 28, 2012, 10:01 AM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading information outside SAAMI compliant practices for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Ive recently stumbled upon a new modified round called cutshells. Now i know this sounds dangerous but i saw another post (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/5759547342/)
(http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=257914)
where this man used a 12 gauge shell but took out the shotshell and shot and replaced it with a cut 16 gauge shell. Now im a machinist and i under stand the inside barrel and chamber are not smooth and the barrel is a smaller hole than the reamed out chamber. so in theory is the 16 gauge shell fit the barrel tolerance wouldn/t this be safe?

Salmoneye · April 28, 2012, 10:23 AM

Cut shells have been around since the advent of paper hulls...

It would never occur to me to use this unless it was my last resort and I was desperate...

Uncle Buck · April 28, 2012, 12:47 PM

Very interesting. I do not think I have ever heard the term before.

I could see the advantage to this if the only thing you had was target loads and needed something bigger, but what are the possible disadvantages?

Lead Express · April 28, 2012, 01:19 PM

The idea has been around a very long time. Poor hunters would cut their hulls in a perforated manner to make a "solid" projectile for game. I've never heard of one causing injury to shooter or firearm..... I could have missed something though.

I've tried these with moderate success, but found that wax slugs are devastating, and accurate to boot. There are some interesting and in-depth videos on the matter as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hIrdHqijvg

**Unclenick** · April 28, 2012, 01:55 PM

Denezin,

The 12 gauge does squeeze the shot shell considerably (around 0.050"). The chamber has a 5° taper for doing this, I wouldn't subject a gun of mine to the stress on a routine basis unless I'd done some strain gauge pressure measurements to see how much higher than normal the pressure really was.

In the case of the 16 gauge cut shell in a 12 gauge adapter, the problem you have is that the smooth bore spec for 12 gauge is .725"-.745", while the 16 ga. shell OD is spec'd at .711"-.731". So an average 16 ga. shell, at .721", will be 0.024" loose in an average 12 gauge barrel, at .735", which will likely be detrimental to accuracy as compared to a closer fit. I don't know how well the cut 16 gauge shell will upset under pressure to fill the bore diameter.

Now the question is, does distortion of the 12 gauge cut shell affect accuracy more adversely than the loose fit of a 16 gauge cut shell in a 12 gauge bore? I don't know the answer. You could gauge your particular 12 gauge bore to get its actual ID numbers and see if you can buy some 16 gauge shells that are closer to the muzzle ID. I'd certainly do that before I would go the cut 12 gauge route, just because I don't know the pressures.

For your reference:

12 gauge 2¾" shell and chamber specifications

16 gauge shell and chamber specifications

Rampant_Colt · April 28, 2012, 02:13 PM

This is another brilliant idea that falls into the "play stupid games; win stupid prizes" category.

If you want to bulge your barrel, risk losing an eye, or worse, go ahead and try it. Just be sure to videotape it so we can all have a good laugh at such frivolous nonsense. There are no advantages to doing this other than a visit to the emergency room, a blown-up gun, and expensive hospital bill

Here's one guy that almost bled to death by filling his shells with wax or parrafin:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/368..._from_me_.html

Wax/paraffin-filled shotshells is another bad idea for a whole variety of reasons.

What I like about shotguns is that they're so versatile. If you want to shoot slugs, buy some slugs; if you want to shoot birdshot or buckshot, buy some of those.. Shooting a 16ga shell out of a 12 gauge chamber is a certain recipe for disaster. Not to mention I cannot think of a single scenario in which you'd need a 'wax' or 'cut' shotshell to get you out of a pinch.

Denezin · April 28, 2012, 09:31 PM

Thanks for all the responses. and Unclenick thanks for the website info im checkin it all out now. Only reason i asked is i like to study all forms of ammunition and the guns themselves history, chamberings, etc.

dahermit · April 29, 2012, 08:20 AM

Quote:

If you want to shoot slugs, buy some slugs;

I has been my understanding that the practice originated during the depression as a desperate method to harvest deer without the money to invest in the proper tools...they used what they had, paper shot-shells.
I agree, it has no place in modern, more affluent times.

Here in Michigan, the game law booklet that came with the purchase of hunting licenses, had a section on the illegal use of "cut shells", for years when I was a kid in the fifties.

Mobuck · April 29, 2012, 09:31 AM

Just to reiterate. This practice is VERY dangerous regardless of how many times it has been done in the past. If you need slugs, carry them with you.
There have been other, equally dangerous ideas proposed such as injecting glue into the shotload. All of these create a condition which prevents the shot from flowing through the choke causing a bulge in the barrel or even worse, a split.

**Unclenick** · April 29, 2012, 03:20 PM

To address the concerns expressed about pressure in loads described in this thread, I edited the OP to include a warning that cut shells are not a standard practice and you try such things at your own risk. If I get time I'll make some strain gauge pressure measurements on an old, inexpensive shotgun I have to see what it actually does, but that will be awhile.

From the recovered slug parts and the single holes made in the targets, it is clear the front portion of a cut shell is moving out before there is enough pressure to open the crimp in the shell. This means there is more expansion of the powder space before the pressure peaks than is usual with a normally fired load. It also means the cut portion swages into the bore without the crimp opening, suggesting pressure may actually be lower at the start than with normally fired shot, but I want to stress I don't know that is the case, as the squeeze dynamics are complicated. I am only pointing out the rough evidence may be interpreted that way. A measurement is still the best way to settle what is really going on.

I'll also add a warning that shell cutting should never be done with any kind of solid projectile or even buckshot (not that there's any reason to do it). A column consisting of many individual pieces of shot is malleable, but any kind of solid projectile or coarse shot projectile, like buckshot, is not going to be as pliant and may raise pressure considerably more than small shot does. Certainly using wax or adhesive resin to glue shot together is foolishly dangerous, as malleability of the shot column is then dramatically reduced, and that can raise pressure or do damage even if fired normally.

Uncle Buck · April 30, 2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

...but what are the possible disadvantages?

After giving this some thought, some possible disadvantages came to me:

Forgetting what choke tube or setting your shotgun is on.

Being too far from help and bleeding to death if this caused your shotgun to explode.

Using the wrong size shot, as Uncle Nick pointed out.

Denezin · April 30, 2012, 10:45 AM

Thanks Unclenick i wouldnt want anyone tryin this and havin a gun blowup in their face. Shoulda put that in with the OP

PawPaw · May 1, 2012, 11:03 AM

I used to do this occasionally, years ago when I was young and stupid. The rationale normally went like this: Nice, pretty bluebird day when the ducks were on the water in a raft 300 yards from any blind. Cut a shell and send it out toward them. Big splash and the birds would move, mill around for a little while and maybe someone would get a shot.

I didn't say it was smart, I said I did it. I still do stupid things occasionally, but I've removed this from my repertoire.

April 28, 2012, 10:01 AM	#1
Denezin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 209	12 gauge "cutshells" CAUTION: The following post includes loading information outside SAAMI compliant practices for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. Ive recently stumbled upon a new modified round called cutshells. Now i know this sounds dangerous but i saw another post (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/5759547342/) (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=257914) where this man used a 12 gauge shell but took out the shotshell and shot and replaced it with a cut 16 gauge shell. Now im a machinist and i under stand the inside barrel and chamber are not smooth and the barrel is a smaller hole than the reamed out chamber. so in theory is the 16 gauge shell fit the barrel tolerance wouldn/t this be safe? Last edited by Unclenick; April 29, 2012 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Caution added

April 28, 2012, 01:55 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,732	Denezin, The 12 gauge does squeeze the shot shell considerably (around 0.050"). The chamber has a 5° taper for doing this, I wouldn't subject a gun of mine to the stress on a routine basis unless I'd done some strain gauge pressure measurements to see how much higher than normal the pressure really was. In the case of the 16 gauge cut shell in a 12 gauge adapter, the problem you have is that the smooth bore spec for 12 gauge is .725"-.745", while the 16 ga. shell OD is spec'd at .711"-.731". So an average 16 ga. shell, at .721", will be 0.024" loose in an average 12 gauge barrel, at .735", which will likely be detrimental to accuracy as compared to a closer fit. I don't know how well the cut 16 gauge shell will upset under pressure to fill the bore diameter. Now the question is, does distortion of the 12 gauge cut shell affect accuracy more adversely than the loose fit of a 16 gauge cut shell in a 12 gauge bore? I don't know the answer. You could gauge your particular 12 gauge bore to get its actual ID numbers and see if you can buy some 16 gauge shells that are closer to the muzzle ID. I'd certainly do that before I would go the cut 12 gauge route, just because I don't know the pressures. For your reference: 12 gauge 2¾" shell and chamber specifications 16 gauge shell and chamber specifications __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 28, 2012, 02:13 PM	#6
Rampant_Colt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 1,478	bad ideas, part deux This is another brilliant idea that falls into the "play stupid games; win stupid prizes" category. If you want to bulge your barrel, risk losing an eye, or worse, go ahead and try it. Just be sure to videotape it so we can all have a good laugh at such frivolous nonsense. There are no advantages to doing this other than a visit to the emergency room, a blown-up gun, and expensive hospital bill Here's one guy that almost bled to death by filling his shells with wax or parrafin: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/368..._from_me_.html Wax/paraffin-filled shotshells is another bad idea for a whole variety of reasons. What I like about shotguns is that they're so versatile. If you want to shoot slugs, buy some slugs; if you want to shoot birdshot or buckshot, buy some of those.. Shooting a 16ga shell out of a 12 gauge chamber is a certain recipe for disaster. Not to mention I cannot think of a single scenario in which you'd need a 'wax' or 'cut' shotshell to get you out of a pinch.

April 29, 2012, 03:20 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,732	To address the concerns expressed about pressure in loads described in this thread, I edited the OP to include a warning that cut shells are not a standard practice and you try such things at your own risk. If I get time I'll make some strain gauge pressure measurements on an old, inexpensive shotgun I have to see what it actually does, but that will be awhile. From the recovered slug parts and the single holes made in the targets, it is clear the front portion of a cut shell is moving out before there is enough pressure to open the crimp in the shell. This means there is more expansion of the powder space before the pressure peaks than is usual with a normally fired load. It also means the cut portion swages into the bore without the crimp opening, suggesting pressure may actually be lower at the start than with normally fired shot, but I want to stress I don't know that is the case, as the squeeze dynamics are complicated. I am only pointing out the rough evidence may be interpreted that way. A measurement is still the best way to settle what is really going on. I'll also add a warning that shell cutting should never be done with any kind of solid projectile or even buckshot (not that there's any reason to do it). A column consisting of many individual pieces of shot is malleable, but any kind of solid projectile or coarse shot projectile, like buckshot, is not going to be as pliant and may raise pressure considerably more than small shot does. Certainly using wax or adhesive resin to glue shot together is foolishly dangerous, as malleability of the shot column is then dramatically reduced, and that can raise pressure or do damage even if fired normally. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 28, 2012, 10:23 AM	#2
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Cut shells have been around since the advent of paper hulls... It would never occur to me to use this unless it was my last resort and I was desperate...

April 28, 2012, 12:47 PM	#3
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Very interesting. I do not think I have ever heard the term before. I could see the advantage to this if the only thing you had was target loads and needed something bigger, but what are the possible disadvantages?

April 28, 2012, 01:19 PM	#4
Lead Express Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2012 Location: Sacramento Posts: 125	The idea has been around a very long time. Poor hunters would cut their hulls in a perforated manner to make a "solid" projectile for game. I've never heard of one causing injury to shooter or firearm..... I could have missed something though. I've tried these with moderate success, but found that wax slugs are devastating, and accurate to boot. There are some interesting and in-depth videos on the matter as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hIrdHqijvg

April 28, 2012, 09:31 PM	#7
Denezin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 209	Thanks for all the responses. and Unclenick thanks for the website info im checkin it all out now. Only reason i asked is i like to study all forms of ammunition and the guns themselves history, chamberings, etc.

April 29, 2012, 09:31 AM	#9
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Just to reiterate. This practice is VERY dangerous regardless of how many times it has been done in the past. If you need slugs, carry them with you. There have been other, equally dangerous ideas proposed such as injecting glue into the shotload. All of these create a condition which prevents the shot from flowing through the choke causing a bulge in the barrel or even worse, a split.

April 30, 2012, 10:45 AM	#12
Denezin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 209	Thanks Unclenick i wouldnt want anyone tryin this and havin a gun blowup in their face. Shoulda put that in with the OP

May 1, 2012, 11:03 AM	#13
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	I used to do this occasionally, years ago when I was young and stupid. The rationale normally went like this: Nice, pretty bluebird day when the ducks were on the water in a raft 300 yards from any blind. Cut a shell and send it out toward them. Big splash and the birds would move, mill around for a little while and maybe someone would get a shot. I didn't say it was smart, I said I did it. I still do stupid things occasionally, but I've removed this from my repertoire.