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November 16, 2011, 07:35 PM | #51 |
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Another question.
Why can't states reconize other state's CC Permits like they do other States driver's licenses? How is either unconstitutional? |
November 16, 2011, 07:37 PM | #52 |
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Well that is THE question isn't it? That's what the bill is all about, or am I missing something about your question?
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November 16, 2011, 07:58 PM | #53 | |
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Some? Yes. Most? Definitely not. And it's very much a patchwork. |
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November 16, 2011, 10:17 PM | #54 | |||
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Quote:
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Carolyn McCarthy is, predictably, having a metaphorical aneurysm over the whole thing: Quote:
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November 16, 2011, 10:56 PM | #55 |
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There is a certain disadvantage to being on the defense.
For decades in Illinois we mobilized to kill one anti-gun bill after another, always on the verge of facing even more restrictions, the dreaded gun registrations, and the abolishment of gun dealers and ranges. We'd stop one horrific bill and while we were taking a breather the gun control lobby was already implementing their next plan. It all changed when we became more effective at being proactive and sending gun legislation at the anti-gunners to deal with. They suddenly became the ones expending political capital just to keep bills from becoming law, preoccupied with lobbying to kill pro-gun measures, they haven't been able to effectively get their anti-gun measures off the ground. I think this bill is a great shot at the gun control lobby, the anti-gun senators and the Obama administration. It's a wake up call to the politicians who think they can take advantage of Obama's years in office to sneak through some anti-gun BS. |
November 17, 2011, 12:15 AM | #56 |
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Sorry, but this Virginian cannot support this measure, as viscerally appealing as it may be. This republic, before it was sundered and destroyed by the Least Emancipator, respected the proper rights of the individual states, which represented, of course, a delegation from the people. To quote Tony Montana, "Look at you now!"
Aside from that, we should carefully weigh what the fed.gov has done in every case where we've invited its tender mercies. Education, Health, Labor, Environment, and on and on it goes. In other words, a grotesque expansion of federal government power.
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November 17, 2011, 12:54 AM | #57 |
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Then I suppose, Mr. James, that you also think each state should immediately stop recognizing from the other states:
After all, if no state should be forced to recognize what another state has officially enacted, why should MY state send your kid back to you when your ex-wife kidnaps her, just because YOUR state's court says you have custody? I think you're on a slippery slope (although I suspect you think I am, so I guess that's even-up). |
November 17, 2011, 01:17 AM | #58 |
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CCW permits are a much different animal than marriage license, etc listed above. I don't know of any states that have overly restrictive requirements for those necessities. However, CCW permits are denied in many states and severely restricted in others. Despite that, if you look at the number of counties that are CCW friendly, we are winning the battle. It should state at the state level. Keep the FEDS out of this arena.
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November 17, 2011, 07:10 AM | #59 |
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The fact that this bill would allow me to carry throughout the UNITED States of America as a law abiding holder of of a carry permit issued by my state government would be beneficial for us in the states in the northeast. So many of us live in one state and work in others. Beneficial to the pipe welder from Georgia who has a legal ccw and gets a 6 month job contract to work in the midwest. Is there a potential for some disaster by it going through the federal gov? Maybe,but unlikely. Should it even be an issue to protect yourself with a legally owned firearm while traveling? No, but it is. It's fine if your state already has reciprocity with others. Does one really think after watching the debate that Mass or R.I. is going to change their laws on their own? The argument of voting the bums out doesn't come into play if you don't live in that state. The other way to try to get them to change is a lawsuit that could go to the Supreme Court if you're lucky. But that's highly unlikely. This at the very least forces dialogue. Can we all agree? Nope. Just look at the difference of opinions for the people on THIS forum. I do have an interest in seeing this pass because I do live in a state that is surrounded by others who are very restrictive and do not offer reciprocity. I would love to be able to take the family on vacations and know I can protect them if the need arises. My personal interest also goes back to the court case in which I had to defend myself in court in Mass on a gun charge that cost me 2 yrs and $17,000. Eventually being found not guilty by a jury which never would have happened if this bill was already in effect. That 17 grand was my new Camaro down payment! Never get that back but I was looking at 8 years day for day which means no time off for good behavior so I guess it was worth it. All for a gun that was legal in VA. I am not a legal expert, nor do I claim this would be the best for all or the best way to go about it. If there is a better way, realistically, let me know. I can only speak for my own situation and others similar. I do want to apologize to oneounceload for the way our last conversation on this went, it should not have gotten personal. When a man is wrong, a man admits it.
But again, if there is a better way than this bill, let's hear it. |
November 17, 2011, 08:10 AM | #60 |
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"The fact that this bill would allow me to carry throughout the UNITED States of America as a law abiding holder of of a carry permit issued by my state government would be beneficial for us in the states in the northeast."
-------------------------------------------------------- And what then? Subject ourselves to many other laws that are unfamiliar? I mean, many State/federal laws are not based on the right of the gun owner - civil tort claims, duty to retreat laws, brandishing a weapon charges, etc, etc.. Are we going to make all laws National? Of what value is an exchange of one system of monopoly for another? The word "united" is an averment of pre-existing social compacts, called states; and these consisted of the people of each separate state. It admits the existence of political societies able to contract with each other, and who had previously contracted. |
November 17, 2011, 08:27 AM | #61 |
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True, but they don't. So then what? Again I ask what is a better solution? And I am first an American THEN a CT citizen. My American rights should trump CT rights. If a state acts unfairly, then it is the duty of the federal government to step in and rectify that.
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November 17, 2011, 09:28 AM | #62 |
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Bill passed through the House and hopefully it stops/fails in the Senate
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November 17, 2011, 10:18 AM | #63 |
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Aguila Blanca, for what it's worth, my Professional Engineer license is not valid in most other states. I can apply for a PE license in other states either by taking a test or demonstrating that Idaho's standards meet those states' standards. But my Idaho license does not allow me to practice as a Professional Engineer in any state other than Idaho. Each state sets its own standards.
I'm not an expert on other professional licenses, but as far as I know, unless there is some sort of reciprocity agreement that has been negotiated between states, one state's professional license is not valid in another state. Initially, I was in favor of this bill, but the more that I think about it, the less I like it. Don't get me wrong - I would very much like my Idaho CCW permit to be valid anywhere in the US. And I believe that the states' rights argument that has been raised by most of the opposition is a red herring, primarily because most of the opposition doesn't give a fig about states' rights, but, rather, can't stand the idea of private citizens owning firearms. But it is an issue of states' rights for the very same reason that my Idaho Professional Engineering license isn't valid in, say, New York. Both states set minimum standards for licensing. As it happens, both states will issue a license to a PE whose state license meets the minimum standard of the other state. Since Idaho's standards are essentially the same as New York's, I could apply for a New York license if I wanted to practice there. The same thing ought to go for CCW permits (but, I suppose, without the need for 49 different licenses). And, right now, that's the standard. As it happens, my Idaho CCW permit isn't valid in most states, primarily because there is no ready access to a database of license holders. If that's the standard that other states require for my license to be valid, then that's their right to insist upon. Now, I understand that, as a citizen of the United States, I have a right to keep and bear arms. I also understand that it is not an unlimited right - the various governments can regulate it to a certain degree. So, at least in my mind, the national standard that has been set is that there is a right to own and carry a firearm. The means of ownership and the means of carry are not explicit and, just as one size of clothing doesn't really fit all, one size of firearms legislation does not suit the entire country. Thus, much as I don't like the fact that I cannot carry a concealed weapon in most states with my Idaho CCW permit, I respect the fact that other states have different standards for allowing concealed carry that are stricter than those of mine (as long as they don't fly in the face of the Constitution.) By the way, you're all invited to Idaho. My state recognizes ever other state's permits. |
November 17, 2011, 10:24 AM | #64 |
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http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...s-apx-11172011
today's national news linked above. if and when it passes senate, I think Obama will ignore it(which is the same as a veto virtually after about a couple weeks). notice the ones against it are lawmakers from NY and the ones for it are AZ pro gun people. It is really pretty simple, I have done a ton of stuff my wife was against and then she definately was glad after-the-fact. the same goes here for all the nay-sayers when it passes someday. You'll just have to deal with it. If you get a CCW in your Home State then you are covered throughout US. States tried to stop LEOSA...they fought a really bad losing battle. That law is very simple and the same would go for here. You think the states are cutting the LEOs a break? No, the law covers them in the very small wordage it has. Now Illinois and places like NYC or Hawaii you might be screwed, but one thing at a time. The law isn't going to make it harder for someone in VA, AK, TX, etc to CCW. It will open the door and allow these people to travel without the headache. After all, we are "one nation..." |
November 17, 2011, 10:56 AM | #65 |
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Next if this passes it will be all current issuing states will have to test exactly alike for CCW. It will also negate SCOTUS from intervening in 2nd amendment cases. No need to do so with national carry. I personally do not have a problem with the 33 states that honor my FLA permit. It will not do me any good in IL. DC, NYC, NJ, CA and most probably most of the north east.
In closing I hope it fails/stalls in the Senate.
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November 17, 2011, 11:10 AM | #66 | |
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November 17, 2011, 11:15 AM | #67 | |
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Amendment 10 was attached to have a GAO study done, after it's law, for recommendations(I assume) regarding verification procedure/effectiveness.
http://repcloakroom.house.gov/News/D...umentID=269102
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November 17, 2011, 12:44 PM | #68 | |
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November 17, 2011, 12:50 PM | #69 | |
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Hardcase
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I do know one tidbit about Johnson who became President by default when Lincoln was murdered. He had the most vetoes in history if I am not mistaken. |
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November 17, 2011, 12:58 PM | #70 | |
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November 17, 2011, 01:13 PM | #71 | |
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Now I suppose places like Hawaii(where it is virtually impossible to get a CCW even though they have laws on the books allowing it+allowing people to apply), can just follow Illinois' example and strip CCW rights altogether. I don't think I am missing something with this bill, but please let me know if I am. It is clear and basically most opposition is just "scared" of change? You probably read the bill Don, but I think maybe others have no clue what it even says.... ....but then again, why would they if they already made up their mind? |
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November 17, 2011, 01:45 PM | #72 | |
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November 17, 2011, 01:47 PM | #73 | |
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youngunz4life, go to this link and read the replies,
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=hb+822 This link will take you to the govs web sight so you can read the bill, http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.822: or just read it here, Quote:
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NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. Last edited by Don P; November 17, 2011 at 01:55 PM. |
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November 17, 2011, 01:55 PM | #74 |
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I'm reading your post...my CCW from my home state would allow me to carry in NYC. It isn't against the law for NYC residents to carry in NYC if you get a permit. Therefore, by law, my CCW would be legally acceptable in NYC, Hawaii, NJ, etc. These states make exercising your 2nd amendment and CCW rights Very Difficult.
I would still have to follow state laws such as 'must notify if pulled over' depending on the state, and other CCW laws. None of these laws would say I couldn't carry in the state I visit. That is their business with their own residents, and I think some people are gonna be a little fed up w/their congressmen & women if joe schmo can carry in there home state while visiting yet the law abiding home state residents who pay taxes are finding it nearly impossible to do the same thing. Go on www.handgunlaw.us and read the LEOSA segments of different states with NJ and Hawaii being the main examples. They were not happy with LEOSA; NJ's governor tried to basically nudge all NJ agencies into not allowing these LEOs to carry off duty. It went nowhere. Obviously a LEO would follow the agnecy's protocol with which he is affiliated, but even if he didn't: by strict law he/she is covered by LEOSA. When the bill passes people will get on with their lives. Some crazy, major shift isn't going to occur as these people have other things on their mind. The ones that try will only be dealing with their home state's residents anyways so how does that affect me when my state respects my CCW rights? In short, it doesn't. Worse case scenario, I have more CCW rights nationally than before the bill was passed anyways. |
November 17, 2011, 01:59 PM | #75 | |
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Don
I just saw your follow-up post. I will check it out.
I mentioned the CCW state reversal thing eralier. That is sort of what I was getting at about the "major shift, craziness" at the end of my last post. I firmly believe this will not happen but there are ways around that if some try. Quote:
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