Anyone making Balloon Head cases?

Slamfire · September 15, 2011, 06:46 PM

As I understand the original Frontier load for a 45 LC was 40 grains Blackpowder. I have never been able to get near that with a solid head case and I would like to try to duplicate the original load. I think it would be fun and I have seen chronograph data that shows you can push a 255 close to 1000 fps with Blackpowder.

So, is anyone making Balloon head cases?

Ideal Tool · September 15, 2011, 07:18 PM

Hello, Slamfire. The term "Baloon Head" is misused and misunderstood.
The original so-called "Baloon" head cases were some of the very first centerfire cartridges manufactured. The technology at the time did not permit drawing a cartridge case from a solid disk or cup of copper..and later brass. Instead, the case was drawn exactly like the rimfire Henry & Spencers, from thin metal..with a folded rim(no need for a gap here as in the case of the rim fires)...More on this later.. The early Sharps, Remington, Ballard, etc. used such cases. A problem soon came up with heaver charges in the big cases..remember those folded rims? The gas pressure would swell and oftimes blow out this thin and already stressed portion of the case. A "gas-Check"..That is exactly what they were called then! was made up of a brass or copper tube with end folded over leaving hole for primer flash. This was pressed down into case at manufacture, and helped keep gas away from fold...It didn't work too well..sometimes it was blown up into case..sometimes into bore! The paper thin metal wasn't too effective as a primer pocket either..these were said to break out after a few firings.
The case you are probably refering to is a "Semi Baloon" head. This case was drawn from a solid billet of brass..but still had the primer pocket formed by punching brass out into inside case head area. Elmer Keith commented on these as also sometimes having the primer pocket break..the early mercuric primers probably didn't help any either.
By the 1930's and 40's, these weaker cases were regulated to lower powered revolver cases. The higher powered smokeless powder rifle cases had long since been drawn from solid, with much stronger solid web over primer
I doubt a manufacturer would re-introduce such a weak case construction in these days of high liability.

Jim Watson · September 15, 2011, 07:27 PM

If you go up a granulation on powder, you can get enough FFFg in a solid head case to match period ballistics. At least that is what Mike Venturino said.

As Ideal says, there are three main types of cartridge case, not two.
I prefer the term "folded head" for the early ones made like a rimfire.
What is commonly called "baloon head" was introduced as "solid head" because the rim was solid, even though the primer pocket bulged out into the case interior. UMC baloon head was headstamped SH. Other sources call it semi-baloon head.

Newton24b · September 15, 2011, 08:29 PM

and there is one more issue that needs to be considered in the ballgame of getting 40 grains in a 45 colt cartridge.

each individual brand of brass cartridge case you can buy today, is slightly different in cross section yielding slightly different case capacities. that will cause issues.

however I have seen were reloaders have gotten 40 grains of bp in the case with proper compression and eliminating any wadding/lubricant pills between powder and projectile. in some theories the typical wad can reduce a powder charge by 5 grains.

also do not forget that the 40 grain, 255 grain bullet cartridge was the original design that the army dropped in favor of the 45 schofield pressure/recoil levels.
however the colt factory did resurrect the original cartridge in the early 1900s with their military revolver chambered in 45 government. that chamber is typically 1/8 inch longer then the standard 45 colt we use now.

Jim Watson · September 15, 2011, 08:34 PM

As I recall, the original .45-40-255 load was dropped because the old wrought iron and mild steel guns were failing proof. The load was dropped to 30 grains. Then the S&W .45 Schofield - .45 Government came along and it was typically loaded with 28 grains in its shorter brass.
Commercial .45 Colt ammunition was boosted back to 35 grains in the 1880s.

When the .45 New Service was adopted in 1909, it was loaded with smokeless to velocity levels no greater than .45 Schofield. I never heard that its case was longer, no need with smokeless, even the bulky RSQ. But the rim was larger for simultaneous extraction.

Slamfire · September 16, 2011, 08:28 AM

You would think with all the blackpowder cartridge shooters that someone would have come out with 45 LC cases that are close to the balloon head in powder capacity.

I found one, don't remember where I got it, but I found it as it did not have an extractor groove in the case. It would not go into the Dillion shell holder. Looking inside it, the primer pocket was exposed, and that is the only balloon head I have ever handled. I loaded 8.5 grains Unique with a 250 and it worked fine, but I retired the case because it is a historical curiosity.

Yes they would be weaker than solid head and not appropriate for smokeless, but they should be just fine for blackpowder.

I gave away my Lyman Blackpowder handbook, but blackpowder pressures were in lead units because copper is too hard. If Civil War musket barrels were made from wrought iron, with pressures below 6000 lead units, a balloon head case should be just fine with blackpowder pressures.

And I would like to see if I can get 1000 fps with a 250 L at blackpowder pressures in a 45 LC.

I did try using FFG in solid head cases, I did not know you were supposed to use a different lube, and that experience was so bad I have not tried it again. Wish I had chronograph data because I am curious what velocities I could get with a modern solid head case.

Jim Watson · September 16, 2011, 08:41 AM

Yes, a semi-balloon head case would work as well for black as it ever did, but how are you going to keep the boys from filling up those balloon head cases with H110?

Pathfinder45 · September 19, 2011, 02:46 PM

Mostly UMC and some WRA. I have almost a full box of nickle plated UMC. Packed full of fffG and topped off with Lee 255 grain RNFP cast bullets, they are pretty impressive when fired. They're no slouch. A lot of them are ever so slightly larger in diameter than modern cases. Since the very bottom nearest the rim doesn't enter the resizing die; I find that many of them will not fully chamber in my Vaquero with it's snug chamber dimensions. So, I fired them off in my Marlin with its somewhat larger chamber. The lack of extractor groove was surprisingly no problem for the Marlin. They were a lot of fun to shoot......until about 25 rounds later when one round had a cases failure and sprayed gas and crud into my eye. Although I was completely un-harmed, it could have been not so funny. The rim itself did not fail but the whole case-head separated from the rest of the brass that remained stuck in the chamber. So if you're gonna play around with balloon-head cases, use 'em in a revolver away from your face. Like I said, I've got a pretty good stash of them; mostly once-fired-smokeless, de-primed, re-sized, trimmed with a Lee case trimmer. Want some? I'm in Oregon. Pathfinder45

September 15, 2011, 06:46 PM	#1
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Anyone making Balloon Head cases? As I understand the original Frontier load for a 45 LC was 40 grains Blackpowder. I have never been able to get near that with a solid head case and I would like to try to duplicate the original load. I think it would be fun and I have seen chronograph data that shows you can push a 255 close to 1000 fps with Blackpowder. So, is anyone making Balloon head cases? __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 16, 2011, 08:28 AM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	You would think with all the blackpowder cartridge shooters that someone would have come out with 45 LC cases that are close to the balloon head in powder capacity. I found one, don't remember where I got it, but I found it as it did not have an extractor groove in the case. It would not go into the Dillion shell holder. Looking inside it, the primer pocket was exposed, and that is the only balloon head I have ever handled. I loaded 8.5 grains Unique with a 250 and it worked fine, but I retired the case because it is a historical curiosity. Yes they would be weaker than solid head and not appropriate for smokeless, but they should be just fine for blackpowder. I gave away my Lyman Blackpowder handbook, but blackpowder pressures were in lead units because copper is too hard. If Civil War musket barrels were made from wrought iron, with pressures below 6000 lead units, a balloon head case should be just fine with blackpowder pressures. And I would like to see if I can get 1000 fps with a 250 L at blackpowder pressures in a 45 LC. I did try using FFG in solid head cases, I did not know you were supposed to use a different lube, and that experience was so bad I have not tried it again. Wish I had chronograph data because I am curious what velocities I could get with a modern solid head case. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 19, 2011, 02:46 PM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I have plenty of them. Mostly UMC and some WRA. I have almost a full box of nickle plated UMC. Packed full of fffG and topped off with Lee 255 grain RNFP cast bullets, they are pretty impressive when fired. They're no slouch. A lot of them are ever so slightly larger in diameter than modern cases. Since the very bottom nearest the rim doesn't enter the resizing die; I find that many of them will not fully chamber in my Vaquero with it's snug chamber dimensions. So, I fired them off in my Marlin with its somewhat larger chamber. The lack of extractor groove was surprisingly no problem for the Marlin. They were a lot of fun to shoot......until about 25 rounds later when one round had a cases failure and sprayed gas and crud into my eye. Although I was completely un-harmed, it could have been not so funny. The rim itself did not fail but the whole case-head separated from the rest of the brass that remained stuck in the chamber. So if you're gonna play around with balloon-head cases, use 'em in a revolver away from your face. Like I said, I've got a pretty good stash of them; mostly once-fired-smokeless, de-primed, re-sized, trimmed with a Lee case trimmer. Want some? I'm in Oregon. Pathfinder45

September 15, 2011, 07:18 PM	#2
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, Slamfire. The term "Baloon Head" is misused and misunderstood. The original so-called "Baloon" head cases were some of the very first centerfire cartridges manufactured. The technology at the time did not permit drawing a cartridge case from a solid disk or cup of copper..and later brass. Instead, the case was drawn exactly like the rimfire Henry & Spencers, from thin metal..with a folded rim(no need for a gap here as in the case of the rim fires)...More on this later.. The early Sharps, Remington, Ballard, etc. used such cases. A problem soon came up with heaver charges in the big cases..remember those folded rims? The gas pressure would swell and oftimes blow out this thin and already stressed portion of the case. A "gas-Check"..That is exactly what they were called then! was made up of a brass or copper tube with end folded over leaving hole for primer flash. This was pressed down into case at manufacture, and helped keep gas away from fold...It didn't work too well..sometimes it was blown up into case..sometimes into bore! The paper thin metal wasn't too effective as a primer pocket either..these were said to break out after a few firings. The case you are probably refering to is a "Semi Baloon" head. This case was drawn from a solid billet of brass..but still had the primer pocket formed by punching brass out into inside case head area. Elmer Keith commented on these as also sometimes having the primer pocket break..the early mercuric primers probably didn't help any either. By the 1930's and 40's, these weaker cases were regulated to lower powered revolver cases. The higher powered smokeless powder rifle cases had long since been drawn from solid, with much stronger solid web over primer I doubt a manufacturer would re-introduce such a weak case construction in these days of high liability.

September 15, 2011, 07:27 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,626	If you go up a granulation on powder, you can get enough FFFg in a solid head case to match period ballistics. At least that is what Mike Venturino said. As Ideal says, there are three main types of cartridge case, not two. I prefer the term "folded head" for the early ones made like a rimfire. What is commonly called "baloon head" was introduced as "solid head" because the rim was solid, even though the primer pocket bulged out into the case interior. UMC baloon head was headstamped SH. Other sources call it semi-baloon head.

September 15, 2011, 08:29 PM	#4
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	and there is one more issue that needs to be considered in the ballgame of getting 40 grains in a 45 colt cartridge. each individual brand of brass cartridge case you can buy today, is slightly different in cross section yielding slightly different case capacities. that will cause issues. however I have seen were reloaders have gotten 40 grains of bp in the case with proper compression and eliminating any wadding/lubricant pills between powder and projectile. in some theories the typical wad can reduce a powder charge by 5 grains. also do not forget that the 40 grain, 255 grain bullet cartridge was the original design that the army dropped in favor of the 45 schofield pressure/recoil levels. however the colt factory did resurrect the original cartridge in the early 1900s with their military revolver chambered in 45 government. that chamber is typically 1/8 inch longer then the standard 45 colt we use now.

September 15, 2011, 08:34 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,626	As I recall, the original .45-40-255 load was dropped because the old wrought iron and mild steel guns were failing proof. The load was dropped to 30 grains. Then the S&W .45 Schofield - .45 Government came along and it was typically loaded with 28 grains in its shorter brass. Commercial .45 Colt ammunition was boosted back to 35 grains in the 1880s. When the .45 New Service was adopted in 1909, it was loaded with smokeless to velocity levels no greater than .45 Schofield. I never heard that its case was longer, no need with smokeless, even the bulky RSQ. But the rim was larger for simultaneous extraction.

September 16, 2011, 08:41 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,626	Yes, a semi-balloon head case would work as well for black as it ever did, but how are you going to keep the boys from filling up those balloon head cases with H110?