Mistake Made, Now What?

Arizona Smithshooter · September 9, 2011, 06:32 PM

I posted this question on another Forum, but thought I would get opinions here as well.

I made my first serious mistake today while reloading 50 rounds of .223 ammo. After I finished I realized I used CCI #500 Small Pistol Primers by mistake instead of the CCI #400 Small Rifle Primers. I measured each with a caliper and they are identical, so now what? Can I safely shoot my rifle using the Small Pistol primers?

flashhole · September 9, 2011, 06:38 PM

You should be OK as long as your firing pin does not pierce the primer. I would put some eye protection on and fire one and closely inspect the results. What kind of powder did you load? Some require a more aggressive primer to get started but the 223 does not have a large case capacity.

If you are uncomfortable with firing it just pull them and start over.

A_Gamehog · September 9, 2011, 06:46 PM

CCi usage charts

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...imer_chart.htm

From CCI

Q: I have CCI Large Pistol primers, can I use then instead of the Large Rifle primers that I need to load for my rifle loading?
A: This is not adviseable, the primers are dimensionally different as are the primer pockets.

Arizona Smithshooter · September 9, 2011, 06:53 PM

The powder used was 22 grains of Alliant Reloader 10X.

Brian Pfleuger · September 9, 2011, 07:17 PM

Is that a starting load? If so, I'd fire one round to insure that you don't get a pierced primer. If I didn't I'd go ahead and shoot them but watching the primers each time.

Reportedly, the Small Pistol primer has 3 micrograms less propellent than does the Small Rifle primer, however it also has a slightly thinner cup. The CCI small rifle primer and small pistol magnum primer are identical.

Arizona Smithshooter · September 9, 2011, 07:26 PM

The Speer manual lists 21-23 grains max for Reloader 10X.

I am thinking I am just going to break them down and start over. I just sent an E-mail to CCI to get their input...will post their response when I get it.

mehavey · September 9, 2011, 07:34 PM

Assuming a 55gr FMJ, that's a mid-range load in a very narrow (and steep pressure rise) range.

Speer Manual - 55gr/RL-10x

Min 21gr - 42,000psi
Mid 22gr - 48,000psi
Max 23gr - 55,000psi

Be exceptionally careful/wear good protection if you are going to shoot them.
Me? I'm a devout coward in the 50ksi regime.

Loader9 · September 9, 2011, 08:01 PM

Amazing!. About 2-3 years ago there was a major tussle on this board about using pistols primers in the likes of a 30 carbine and others. Some brave soul emailed CCI who sent an email back stating that their small magnum pistol and small rifle primers were IDENTICAL and in fact, one in the same. I wonder which side of the coin they're on this week.

Quote:

"According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably."

Brian Pfleuger · September 9, 2011, 08:21 PM

With a predicted pressure of 48,000psi as per Mehavey's post, I personally would try the load. I use the CCI small pistol primer in 357sig and I load it to *at least*

the European pressure standard, which is 44,500psi.

48,000 predicted would not bother me much, particularly if I had a history with the gun and knew it's tendencies.

However, this is not advice. I would be risking my own body parts and would not suggest that you do likewise.

wild willy · September 9, 2011, 08:22 PM

Small rifle and pistol are the same size Large rifle and pistol are different

**Mal H** · September 9, 2011, 08:24 PM

Let's not start mixing apples, oranges and kumquats!

Post #3 says that large pistol primers are dimensionally different, and that is true. However, Arizona Smithshooter isn't using large pistol or rifle primers in his .223 loads. If he was, we would have a different problem altogether!

Post #8 states that the CCI small rifle primer is the same as the CCI small magnum pistol primer. That may be true, but, again, Arizona Smithshooter didn't use small magnum pistol primers. He used standard small pistol primers.

Small pistol primers and small rifle primers are dimensionally the same (unlike their big brothers).

I think I would wait for CCI's take on the issue and follow that. If you had gone the other way and used small rifle primers in a pistol caliber that calls for standard small pistol primers, I would say fire one and examine closely for excessive pressure, but with the different cup thicknesses I'm not sure I would go for it in a rifle with anything other than a starting load. If you had made the mistake with Federal primers, I'm positive I wouldn't try it.

I would also examine my reloading process and determine why that mistake was allowed to happen. Perhaps keeping rifle primers with your rifle brass, and pistol primers with your pistol brass would be one of several solutions. Double checking all components before starting a reloading session is another.

Ideal Tool · September 9, 2011, 08:26 PM

Hello, Arizona. It's your bolt face..but if it were me..I'd pull e'm. Years ago, I loaded a .222Rem. with Rem. 6 1/2 primers instead of the 7 1/2..1st. shot blew primer..and these were mid-range loads. Those pistol primer cups wern't intended for anything near .223 pressures.

A_Gamehog · September 9, 2011, 08:48 PM

FYI my pet load is 24.5 R-10X and 55 V-max or Midway dogtown HP.

Flattens the primers but shoots good with 99.5 % burn.

Arizona Smithshooter · September 9, 2011, 09:40 PM

Mal H said, "I would also examine my reloading process and determine why that mistake was allowed to happen. Perhaps keeping rifle primers with your rifle brass, and pistol primers with your pistol brass would be one of several solutions. Double checking all components before starting a reloading session is another."

My error was answering a phone call in the midst of setting up for a reloading session, plus not keeping the rifle and pistol primers better separated. I noticed the error when I went to load some 9mm and realized 50 primers were missing from the small pistol primer tray and my small rifle primer container was still full.

Going to pull the 50 bullets and start over....

CrustyFN · September 9, 2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Going to pull the 50 bullets and start over....

That's what I would do. Pulling down 50 won't take that long and it will make you pay better attention in the future, don't ask me how I know this.

l98ster · September 9, 2011, 10:11 PM

Just ran into this problem at the range the other day with a friend of mine. The problem that my friend ran into is that the gun would go "full auto" (he was using an AR). The AR uses a floating firing pin, and upon recoil, the firing pin had enough energy in it to fire a second and sometimes a 3rd shot with one pull of the trigger.

If you are using and AR, I would load 1 at a time. Other than that situation, I believe you will be just fine. I dont believe tht there is any danger of firing those.

-George

TXGunNut · September 9, 2011, 10:25 PM

I'd pull 'em, especially if you're firing lefty. One ruptured primer could ruin your whole day, going full auto could get you kicked off the range. Chances of either could be remote but I'm seldom lucky that way. Pull the rounds down and you've learned a cheap lesson, fire it and the price of knowledge could be dear. I doubt CCI will tell you to fire them but their response will be interesting.

Arizona Smithshooter · September 9, 2011, 10:56 PM

Just finished pulling the bullets and recovering the powder. Will work on the cases tomorrow. I appreciate the quick replies. I will post any response from CCI...probably won't be until Monday. I am sure they will say not to fire the rounds also...just from a liability standpoint, if nothing else.

Arizona Smithshooter · September 12, 2011, 07:07 PM

I received this answer today from CCI:

"The bullets need to be pulled and powder dumped. Then fire the primers in a well ventilated area and decap.

The CCI 500 pistol primers have a thinner cup bottom and firing pin perforations will occur. This can damage your firearm."

Lesson learned...no phone calls while setting up to reload!

Brian Pfleuger · September 12, 2011, 09:44 PM

The response from CCI is entirely expected. I'm not saying it's not necessarily prudent but they are CERTAINLY not going to tell you to shoot them.

Just like all the manuals say "Never exceed maximum published charge" but 3 other manuals have higher charges and say the same thing.

You can COUNT on the "lawyer" answer from them.

**Mal H** · September 13, 2011, 11:07 AM

Yep, that was the expected answer, and, frankly, they're right.

Brian Pfleuger · September 13, 2011, 11:12 AM

I'm tempted to work up a load in my .204 using CCI SP primers just to see where the limit might be. I'd be willing to bet that full-power loads would be OK. That's 58k PSI. I've run them into the high 40s already and they don't even flatten, crater, anything. They look no different than 25k psi loads.

I wouldn't bet a lot though.

praetorian97 · September 13, 2011, 11:15 AM

Thats a tough one. Im too cheap to waste 50 rounds especially if they are crimped and cant be kinetically pulled. But then again a premature fire in an AR style gun can be worse. Most likey I would just load a couple up at a time and see what happens....

serf 'rett · September 13, 2011, 11:20 AM

Certainly expected THAT answer from the factory; however, I think you did right in pulling.

HiBC · September 13, 2011, 05:07 PM

I was loading with a partner.He was running the Dillon press,I was weighing charges on a Lyman auto scale.We were carefully crafting good ammo.MK's,chamfered,etc.Reasonable load of Varget in .308.I ran a few through my DPMS LR 308,about 10.When I looked at the primers,they were pierced.I quit shooting the ammo.Later investigation found pistol primers were used.Corrections were made in primer storage.
The discs of primer cup blew back inside the bolt.It would be possible for these to wedge the firing pin to fixed forward.The major problem with that is firing would perhaps occur with an unlocked bolt.Under magnification,I could see the slightest amout of gas etching on the firing pin.I replaced it.
Good plan,tearing them down.

September 9, 2011, 06:32 PM	#1
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	Mistake Made, Now What? I posted this question on another Forum, but thought I would get opinions here as well. I made my first serious mistake today while reloading 50 rounds of .223 ammo. After I finished I realized I used CCI #500 Small Pistol Primers by mistake instead of the CCI #400 Small Rifle Primers. I measured each with a caliper and they are identical, so now what? Can I safely shoot my rifle using the Small Pistol primers?

September 9, 2011, 06:38 PM	#2
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	You should be OK as long as your firing pin does not pierce the primer. I would put some eye protection on and fire one and closely inspect the results. What kind of powder did you load? Some require a more aggressive primer to get started but the 223 does not have a large case capacity. If you are uncomfortable with firing it just pull them and start over. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

September 9, 2011, 06:46 PM	#3
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	CCi usage charts http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...imer_chart.htm From CCI Q: I have CCI Large Pistol primers, can I use then instead of the Large Rifle primers that I need to load for my rifle loading? A: This is not adviseable, the primers are dimensionally different as are the primer pockets. Last edited by A_Gamehog; September 9, 2011 at 06:55 PM.

September 9, 2011, 06:53 PM	#4
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	The powder used was 22 grains of Alliant Reloader 10X.

September 9, 2011, 07:17 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	Is that a starting load? If so, I'd fire one round to insure that you don't get a pierced primer. If I didn't I'd go ahead and shoot them but watching the primers each time. Reportedly, the Small Pistol primer has 3 micrograms less propellent than does the Small Rifle primer, however it also has a slightly thinner cup. The CCI small rifle primer and small pistol magnum primer are identical. __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

September 9, 2011, 07:26 PM	#6
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	The Speer manual lists 21-23 grains max for Reloader 10X. I am thinking I am just going to break them down and start over. I just sent an E-mail to CCI to get their input...will post their response when I get it.

September 9, 2011, 07:34 PM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,207	Assuming a 55gr FMJ, that's a mid-range load in a very narrow (and steep pressure rise) range. Speer Manual - 55gr/RL-10x Min 21gr - 42,000psi Mid 22gr - 48,000psi Max 23gr - 55,000psi Be exceptionally careful/wear good protection if you are going to shoot them. Me? I'm a devout coward in the 50ksi regime.

September 9, 2011, 08:21 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	With a predicted pressure of 48,000psi as per Mehavey's post, I personally would try the load. I use the CCI small pistol primer in 357sig and I load it to at least the European pressure standard, which is 44,500psi. 48,000 predicted would not bother me much, particularly if I had a history with the gun and knew it's tendencies. However, this is not advice. I would be risking my own body parts and would not suggest that you do likewise.

September 9, 2011, 08:22 PM	#10
wild willy Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2006 Posts: 404	Small rifle and pistol are the same size Large rifle and pistol are different

September 9, 2011, 08:24 PM	#11
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 17,066	Let's not start mixing apples, oranges and kumquats! Post #3 says that large pistol primers are dimensionally different, and that is true. However, Arizona Smithshooter isn't using large pistol or rifle primers in his .223 loads. If he was, we would have a different problem altogether! Post #8 states that the CCI small rifle primer is the same as the CCI small magnum pistol primer. That may be true, but, again, Arizona Smithshooter didn't use small magnum pistol primers. He used standard small pistol primers. Small pistol primers and small rifle primers are dimensionally the same (unlike their big brothers). I think I would wait for CCI's take on the issue and follow that. If you had gone the other way and used small rifle primers in a pistol caliber that calls for standard small pistol primers, I would say fire one and examine closely for excessive pressure, but with the different cup thicknesses I'm not sure I would go for it in a rifle with anything other than a starting load. If you had made the mistake with Federal primers, I'm positive I wouldn't try it. I would also examine my reloading process and determine why that mistake was allowed to happen. Perhaps keeping rifle primers with your rifle brass, and pistol primers with your pistol brass would be one of several solutions. Double checking all components before starting a reloading session is another.

September 9, 2011, 08:26 PM	#12
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, Arizona. It's your bolt face..but if it were me..I'd pull e'm. Years ago, I loaded a .222Rem. with Rem. 6 1/2 primers instead of the 7 1/2..1st. shot blew primer..and these were mid-range loads. Those pistol primer cups wern't intended for anything near .223 pressures.

September 9, 2011, 08:48 PM	#13
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	FYI my pet load is 24.5 R-10X and 55 V-max or Midway dogtown HP. Flattens the primers but shoots good with 99.5 % burn.

September 9, 2011, 09:40 PM	#14
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	Mal H said, "I would also examine my reloading process and determine why that mistake was allowed to happen. Perhaps keeping rifle primers with your rifle brass, and pistol primers with your pistol brass would be one of several solutions. Double checking all components before starting a reloading session is another." My error was answering a phone call in the midst of setting up for a reloading session, plus not keeping the rifle and pistol primers better separated. I noticed the error when I went to load some 9mm and realized 50 primers were missing from the small pistol primer tray and my small rifle primer container was still full. Going to pull the 50 bullets and start over....

September 9, 2011, 10:11 PM	#16
l98ster Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2010 Location: Hopewell Junction, NY Posts: 454	Just ran into this problem at the range the other day with a friend of mine. The problem that my friend ran into is that the gun would go "full auto" (he was using an AR). The AR uses a floating firing pin, and upon recoil, the firing pin had enough energy in it to fire a second and sometimes a 3rd shot with one pull of the trigger. If you are using and AR, I would load 1 at a time. Other than that situation, I believe you will be just fine. I dont believe tht there is any danger of firing those. -George

September 9, 2011, 10:25 PM	#17
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	I'd pull 'em, especially if you're firing lefty. One ruptured primer could ruin your whole day, going full auto could get you kicked off the range. Chances of either could be remote but I'm seldom lucky that way. Pull the rounds down and you've learned a cheap lesson, fire it and the price of knowledge could be dear. I doubt CCI will tell you to fire them but their response will be interesting.

September 9, 2011, 10:56 PM	#18
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	Just finished pulling the bullets and recovering the powder. Will work on the cases tomorrow. I appreciate the quick replies. I will post any response from CCI...probably won't be until Monday. I am sure they will say not to fire the rounds also...just from a liability standpoint, if nothing else.

September 12, 2011, 07:07 PM	#19
Arizona Smithshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Western Arizona Posts: 177	I received this answer today from CCI: "The bullets need to be pulled and powder dumped. Then fire the primers in a well ventilated area and decap. The CCI 500 pistol primers have a thinner cup bottom and firing pin perforations will occur. This can damage your firearm." Lesson learned...no phone calls while setting up to reload!

September 12, 2011, 09:44 PM	#20
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	The response from CCI is entirely expected. I'm not saying it's not necessarily prudent but they are CERTAINLY not going to tell you to shoot them. Just like all the manuals say "Never exceed maximum published charge" but 3 other manuals have higher charges and say the same thing. You can COUNT on the "lawyer" answer from them.

September 13, 2011, 11:07 AM	#21
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 17,066	Yep, that was the expected answer, and, frankly, they're right.

September 13, 2011, 11:12 AM	#22
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	I'm tempted to work up a load in my .204 using CCI SP primers just to see where the limit might be. I'd be willing to bet that full-power loads would be OK. That's 58k PSI. I've run them into the high 40s already and they don't even flatten, crater, anything. They look no different than 25k psi loads. I wouldn't bet a lot though.

September 13, 2011, 11:15 AM	#23
praetorian97 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2011 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 455	Thats a tough one. Im too cheap to waste 50 rounds especially if they are crimped and cant be kinetically pulled. But then again a premature fire in an AR style gun can be worse. Most likey I would just load a couple up at a time and see what happens....

September 13, 2011, 11:20 AM	#24
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	Certainly expected THAT answer from the factory; however, I think you did right in pulling.

September 13, 2011, 05:07 PM	#25
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	I was loading with a partner.He was running the Dillon press,I was weighing charges on a Lyman auto scale.We were carefully crafting good ammo.MK's,chamfered,etc.Reasonable load of Varget in .308.I ran a few through my DPMS LR 308,about 10.When I looked at the primers,they were pierced.I quit shooting the ammo.Later investigation found pistol primers were used.Corrections were made in primer storage. The discs of primer cup blew back inside the bolt.It would be possible for these to wedge the firing pin to fixed forward.The major problem with that is firing would perhaps occur with an unlocked bolt.Under magnification,I could see the slightest amout of gas etching on the firing pin.I replaced it. Good plan,tearing them down.