40 - 65 single shot... anyone play ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thinking of trying the local clubs long range buffalo shoot at the state cowboy championship match...

I have a custom Navy Arms Rolling block that would be perfect... only I haven't spent much time loading for this gun I picked up late last year...

just going through Midway didn't seem to offer me many bullets that could take velocities over 1200 fps, yet the minimum loads in Hodgdons manual for a ( Edited... 400 ) grain bullet, show only Trailboss velocities that low...

so looking for suggestions for components & or loads...

I've heard they'll be shooting 125 yards at the match ( with pop up targets )

my personal range goes out to 300 yards so I'd like to be able to shoot to 300 with whatever I load after this match... I have about a month to get ready...

[Jimro]

Looking at the ballistics of the 40-65 I don't see anything that is going to cause alarm as 1,800 fps is the top velocity listed. Even a soft lead bullet will hold together at those velocities.

Jimro

[Scorch]

In a BP rifle, you really don't need to worry about leading until you reach about 1,600 fps, which is difficult to hit with BP unless you load light bullets. Like 200 grainers.

But to be quite serious, I am not sure you can accurately shoot out to 600 yds with 200 gr 40-caliber bullets. I mean sure, you can get there, but would think you would need somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 gr bullets to shoot accurately. Factory 40-65 loads used between 260 and 330 gr bullets (you didn't say which 40-65 you were shooting), some 40-caliber target rifles used bullets up to 400 gr. Just for info, I used to own an 11X60Rmm/11mm Mauser, and I shot paper patched 300 gr .430" cast 44 cal FNSWC bullets. Worked fine out to about 150-ish yds, but in order to get to longer range with good accuracy I had to shoot cast 380 gr or 420 gr bullets.

Since you are looking at smokeless powder, you may be able to hit higher velocities, and that changes the problem. You cannot use BP lube. You can paper patch. Or you can play with lubes until you find one that works well.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

400 grain bullets ( I assume by SCORCH's wink, that he caught that )

using Hodgdons info, only Trailboss has a velocity under 1200 fps on the lowest charges listed...

this is one of the only bullets I can find in stock ( important since I need to be ready in one month ) & they list a max of 1200 fps ( of course are likely lubed in black powder lube as well )

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=182306

or does someone have a link for something else in stock somewhere ???

if I can't find anything else, I do load with Trailboss, so I do have that powder... though I'd prefer to use H322 or 4198... I also have a bottle of Lee Alox lube I could remove the black powder lube & coat them with Alox ???

[Jim Watson]

If you load it with black powder like it is supposed to be, you will not have problems overdriving bullets.

There are two .40-65s.
The original .40-65-260 is a Winchester 1886 hunting round. It would do ok at 125 yards.
The "modern" .40-65 is kind of a substitute for .40-70 Sharps with common (.45-70 head and length) brass. It is normally loaded with a 400-425 grain bullet.

What is your rifling twist? The single shot version needs a 16" twist for its long bullets.

I have a Browning BPCR .40-65 with Badger barrel. I use the Lyman Snover 410663 bullet as cast by Montana Custom Casting (different from Montana Precision Swaging and I think better.)
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_40_caliber.html

I get best accuracy with them at .411" fair at .410" and not much at .409". Bullet should fit the chamber throat and be oversize for the grooves.
If you have a slow twist, you will have to load a shorter/lighter bullet, they also make 240-300 gr "lever action" bullets.

I disagree with Scorch, if you just must shoot nitro, you do not have to change bullet lubes, SPG or DGL are very good lubes for all moderate velocity cast bullet shooting. Or Mr Jennings at Montana Custom Casting will apply a hard smokeless lube if you are sure you will not use black.

Lyman says the .40-65 with 400 gr Snover 410663 will do 1236 fps with 21 grains of IMR 4198. My low end black powder load does 1207 fps and shot 3/4" at 100 yards the last time out.


Edit to add: There is a recommendation on the Shiloh board for Cheycast bullets. But I have not tried them.
http://www.cheycast.com/

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I've got 3-4 different cans of FFG FFFG etc. how would one go about loading black powder cartridges ( I think I remember something about not using the powder measure or ??? I could dip a bunch to fill the case, scale each load or ??? are standard primers for each smokeless load OK to use for those same loads loaded with black powder ???

still would probably prefer to use smokeless from the cleaning issues... but might be nostalgic enough that I find I like it better ???

[Jim Watson]

If you only have a month to get the bugs out, I suggest smokeless.

BPCR is fun but it is some of the most challenging loading I have ever done.
You read a lot of stuff on the internet about "grains volume" of black powder. That might be ok for the Daniel Boone era but the Sharps Rifle Co. said in the 1870s, "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."
Everybody I know either weighs powder or uses measure and technique equal to what you see for a 6mm PPC benchrest gun.
There is a lot more to know what with drop tubes, compression dies, overpowder wads, and seating. Shooting is slower, target shooters of my acquaintance either blowtube between shots to keep the fouling soft or wipe every shot.
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/I...CR_Loading.pdf

Cleaning is not the bugaboo most people make of it, especially not for a single shot. When I was at the range Saturday I timed myself. After shooting, it took me 22 minutes to clean my rifle, decap my brass and drop it in a jar of soapy water (It will be wet tumbled in ceramic media, but you can get by with a testtube brush and some elbow grease. But the brass has to be cleaned, too.), pack my range box, and load the van to return home.
At home I recleaned the rifle in another 15 minutes or thereabouts.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

yep... I know about the brass I have a bunch of used 50-70 cases that are pretty much worthless, as they were shot with black & just put away for years before I bought what the guy had...

When I get home I'll have to look at my 40-65 stuff... I bought my buddys whole set up... I think I got 2-3 dies, & a bunch of cast bullets now that I think about it... I'm not casting yet, so it'll only do me any good, if I have enough of one to develope a load, & shoot the match...

[TXGunNut]

Probably not what you want to hear but toying with a BPCR is what got me into casting and BP. I spent more than a little bit of money buying premium commercial cast bullets before I realized I was wasting my time...and money. I bought SPG's Reloading Primer, invested in boolit casting equipment and learned to love black powder. My first boolits were better than anything I could buy.
In a nutshell BP is nothing like smokeless. BP must be compressed for optimum loads; the powder charge has more to do with case volume and seating depth than actual weight.
If you really want to make that rifle shoot I'd recommend loading it like it was intended to be loaded, just get ready to have more than a few new adventures. You've been warned, my friend.

[TXGunNut]

Cleaning is not the bugaboo most people make of it, especially not for a single shot. -Jim Watson

I tell folks my smokeless rifles take at least three times as long to clean as my BP rifles. It's a hard sell but it's true. 15 minutes, two squirts of Windex with vinegar, a dab of bore butter, 4 patches and I'm done. I spend more time wiping down the exterior than I do on the bore.
I decap & drop my cases in a jug of hot soapy water when I get home. A good shake, thorough rinse, a quick trip to a warm oven and they're ready to be tumbled or loaded again.

[Loader9]

MWM, if you keep your American Rifleman mags, they did an article on the 40-65 that the guys are shooting with the heavier bullets including loading data. Seems like it was maybe 2-3 years ago.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for the info guys...

I worked 14 hours yesterday, so I didn't have any time to get into the man cave ( besides Sons of Guns was on, & I had the last Top shot DVR'd... so I just put my feet up, ate a late supper & watched gun TV )

I think I got some already cast bullets as part of the package when I bought the rifle... I'm sure I bought 50 or 100 new Starline cases after I bought the rifle... I'm thinking I'll probably try H-322 first ( one of the troubles of getting old & loading so many different cartridges, is remembering what all you have )... I tried making lists on the "puter" but found I bought & used up stuff faster than I could update my lists... now I just try to put everything back in it's place & double check before I start that cartridge to see what I actually have

better get busy... I'm really really busy at work, so my spare time is low,

[Jimro]

Why not try 10-13 grains of Red Dot?

Jimro

[Magnum Wheel Man]

a charge like that must leave 3/4 of an empty case ??? I personally try to never load loads like that with double based powders...

does it work good for you ???

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, Magnum Wheel Man. I load for a .40-70 str. (2 1/2") in a Riflesmith No. 1 long-range. I have used H4895, Varget, AA5744, powders in it with 300 to 395gr. cast-lead bullets. The most accurate loads were with H4895 & Varget. When I first got it, I called Hodgdon & was surprised to learn it has the same case capacity as the .40-65. Most accurate H4895 loads were a few grains under the recommended start loads. I recently aquired an original .40-70 Remington rolling block, pistol gripped sporter..with British proofs! I will be using only Swiss black powder in this one. I have not had opertunity to shoot beyond 100yds. for this, the most accrate bullet I have found is an original Ideal 412263, designed for the .405 Win. I had Fred Leeth of Pioneer Products make up a nose-pour copy of this & it will put them inside 1" at 100yd. The RCBS 300 & 350 are also accurate. This is a regulation 10lb. weight match rifle so heaver bullets start to hurt! Best of luck!

[Jimro]

a charge like that must leave 3/4 of an empty case ??? I personally try to never load loads like that with double based powders...

does it work good for you ???

Well it seems to work for a lot of people....

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/...pringfield.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_89808647/

I'd start around 9 grains and work up in .2 grain increments looking for accuracy. You won't get velocity with a pistol/shotgun powder but you can duplicate black powder loads. 13 grains might be too much for a rolling block action, but trapdoor shooters have been using it for years in the 45-70. Someone with access to quickload can show the projected pressures, but last time I saw them most were in the 20k to mid 30k range.

EDIT: the last time I loaded up some pistol powder into a rifle cartridge was Unique in 9.3x62 to fire form resized 30-06 brass using a paper patched 9mm pistol bullet. Don't have my notes handy to see exactly what charge weight I used.

Jimro

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Well I got done early enough yesterday & the MRS had plans & had to leave ( a perfect oportunity to dash down to "the bat cave" )

I was remembering correctly that my buddy sold me the whole "kit" I got 2 bullet molds, a lubrisizing die ( I already had a Lyman lubrisizer handed down from my father in law, that I've never used )... about 100 45-70 cases resized to 40-65, & 200 - 300 assorted cast bullets in 4 different styles & weights, as well as a set of loading dies... also turns out I had bought 20 new Starline 40-65 cases as well, that have never been loaded yet

so after I spread out all my stuff in front of me I called him up to test his memory... ( even though I load over 60 different cartridges, & have been handloading for around 15 years... I still refer to him as my mentor, as he's just about done it all ) I like to talk to him, if I go into an area I haven't done myself, & while I have many handed down & collected bullet molds, the pot, & about a ton of lead, I've yet to try casting my own bullets, so the lubrisizer looked pretty greek to me yet... in about a 1/2 hour we had sorted through the bullets... I think I'll start loading with a "group of 100" that have been weighed & fall between 404 & 406 grains, ( it's the biggest "group" of bullets I have currently ) they are a long round nose with a name I can't remember... maybe snitzers ??? anyway my luber was empty, & he makes his own, & offered me a cylinder of it if I stopped by today... which I'll do, as ( he's a retired tool & die guy ) he's going to knurl out the 45-70 head stamps on the reformed 45-70 cases ( I already shoot 3 different loads in 5-6 guns of 45-70, so I don't like to have reformed cases with readable headstamps )

I expect I'll be in a position to put a few bullets down range by Sunday... with any luck, I'll be in shape to do the shoot in 3 weeks

Thanks again for the suggestions... I have had Unique already recommended to me to use, & I do have that powder... I also some 4895... but it's IMR or ??? not H-4895

I've had pretty good luck in my 45-70 with H-322 & with the Vit A Vouri powder whose number currently escapes me... so I may try those 2 1st & see if I can get "good enough for now" results... & can later explore other powder options...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

welll... a few bullets turned out to be close to 75 or 80 bullets down range...

I loaded 20 rounds of my new Starline cases, with the 404-406 grain round nose bullets... 2 loads using H-322 & 2 loads using Trailboss

suprised that the Trailboss, while only carrying about 2/3 the velocity seemed to have more recoil than the H-322 ( probably burns faster ) plus I shot up the remaining 30 rounds of 4 different loads that I got with the gun...

... wished I had more of the lighter bullets, as they seemed to shoot tighter groups in my rifle, but I have about 100 of the "snovers" or Schnawzers or what ever the heavy round nose bullets were, so I'll have to make due with them, for now...

last I had the rifle out was right after I bought it last year, & using unknown reciepe loads I got the rifles tang sight sighted in at 200 yards... after figuring out that the apature slides left & right when adjusting elevation, ( I pushed it all the way to one side & will always do that, for repeatability ) & then adjusted the windage screws at the bottom & finally got the rifle sighted in at 125 yards...

... now need to try to fine tune my load... with the bullets available, the lightest load of Trailboss had the smallest group, I was crimping in the crimp groove... I noticed some of the heavier bullets of the unknown loads were seated out from the crimp groove, so I'll probably keep the charge the same, but load up like 4-5 of each length, & try adjusting the COL longer to see if I can tighten up the groups any before the shoot... I have no idea how many cartridges I'll need for the Buffalo shoot, but figure I need to save 50-60 bullets for the shoot ???