What the FEG is it?

[Pond, James Pond]

Hello all,

I am new to the site and very new to shooting. I know next to nothing about firearms except what Hollywood has taught. I understand most of that to be wrong too… However, I do know that the end with the hole in it is the dangerous bit, and that is a good start.

Basically, having had a crack at a firing range, I quite fancy taking it up as a hobby. In order to get cheaper rounds, I am working toward a weapons licence. I am also tempted to buy my own firearm as, after a few sessions renting a site gun, a second hand gun could pay for itself quite quickly. I would also know it better than a club gun.

I also don’t know whether to go for a revolver (I like the simplicity and dependability, but rounds and guns can be more expensive), or a pistol (cheaper to buy, cheaper to load, but more to go wrong). Or both!!

The question is, where do I start?!? Well, I have a limited budget, so I have been looking at the second hand pistols and revolvers on sale. My question is mainly about a pistol I have found, hence this sub-forum.

I have found an affordable FEG 9mm. I think it is a P9M, but the catch at the back of the slide (is that the safety?) doesn’t match any pictures I have found of the 9M:



What do you think it is? And is it any good, in terms of accuracy and reliability?

Secondly, if I were to go for a revolver, I have found the Arminius HW38. This is very affordably and, by all accounts, seems to have a good reputation… Do these have any major weaknesses I should know about?

Thanks!

[rigby06]

It looks to be a Browning High-Power T-Series clone, but I could be mistaken. The Browning High-Powers are known to be tack drivers. I can't answer more than that.

[d sage]

Looks like the magazine isn't locked in or has some problem. BTW that sure is a big hairy hand holding it! If it belongs to the gun dealer I wouldn't argue with him!!

[carguychris]

The FEG P9M or PJK (the model names seem somewhat interchangeable) is a Browning Hi-Power clone with a fair to middling reputation in stock form. I'm sure some folks will jump on me for being so negative, but a few others may accuse me of being too charitable.

The reason for the differing safety levers is that FEG made several substantial changes to the pistol's design during the production run, confusingly without changing the model number(s) or really documenting the changes in any definitive way. This has caused some deal of confusion amongst Hi-Power fans. The earlier pistols supposedly hew closer to the classic Hi-Power mold, while the later guns are internally quite different despite a very similar appearance. I don't know enough about these pistols specifically to tell you if the one in your picture is an earlier or later version.

The Browning Hi-Power (often abbreviated BHP) is an all-time classic pistol, although it has some drawbacks from a modern standpoint, namely a tendency for the hammer to "bite" the shooter in the web between the thumb and forefinger, and a somewhat mushy stock trigger that's caused by a flawed mag safety design. Both problems are fixable and you'll find lots of references online. OTOH these pistols are like 60s Camaros; ones that are actually used are usually modified extensively, while bone-stock examples are generally owned by collectors who rarely take them out of the house.

OTOH I think you can make a much better choice for a first pistol than an FEG. My stock advice for anyone looking for a 9mm pistol on a budget is to check out a used Ruger P95 or S&W 3rd-gen 59-series pistol (these are identified by a 59xx or 9xx model number format and a wraparound plastic grip).

[Amin Parker]

I have one of those.

I have 3 genuine Browning Hi Powers and the FEG like the one in the picture.

Mine has never had a problem. Parts interchange with Hi Powers, magazines and parts are everywhere.

Completely reliable, accurate enough. A good solid pistol that points naturally for many.

Go for it but stay away from Armenius revolvers.

[vyse.04]

That catch is a safety as you mentioned. The Hi Power is a Single Action firearm, so the hammer has to be manually cocked. I know some of the HP copies have gone to a DA/SA design, but the whole appearance was changed as well.

As far as a first handgun, I think that would be a good choice if it fits you. Chances are you won't be able to test fire it (who knows though), but I would have it taken apart so you can inspect the internals. From the pictures it looks stock, but unless that FEG's design was different from the Hi Power, it should have a magazine safety intact. That prevents the firearm from being used without a magazine inserted, and it is commonly removed to improve trigger pull.

Decide on if you prefer polymer to steel frame and then move on to caliber choice. IMO, 9mm is a good option for a new shooter, but try and shoot as many different models as possible that fit your hands. You will save some money in the long run by making an informed decision, as opposed to being stuck with something that you do not enjoy shooting.

[AustinTX]

What's the asking price? The FEG clones are generally regarded as very solid guns. No offense to carguychris, but I find that most people's reviews are quite a bit more positive.

As he point out, though, there are very substantial design differences among different FEGs that appear almost identical on the outside, down to the model number stamped on the slide. If the FEG you're looking at is a faithful clone of the Hi-Power, it will have evidence of the frame crossbolt on the right side of the gun above the trigger and just under the bottom of the slide. Do you see the oval-shaped bit of steel in that area that's colored differently from the rest of the frame in the photo below? That's the end of the crossbolt used in the Hi-Power locking system. If that's missing, then the gun has a completely different system for mating the barrel to the frame, one that's akin to what's used on the metal-framed S&W semi-autos.



The one you have pictured is the ventilated-rib model, so it's actually referred to by FEG as the FP9. The safety seems like a non-original part to me, since, to my knowledge, only the original FEG Hi-Power clone, the P9, was released with the old-style Hi-Power safety (and non-modified slide stop). I'm not sure if FEG made any FP9s with the S&W-style system, but it would be worth checking for evidence of the frame crossbolt.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm FEG for a first gun, in my opinion. Price is key, though. Don't overpay.

[AustinTX]

I know some of the HP copies have gone to a DA/SA design, but the whole appearance was changed as well.

Those guns shouldn't be called Hi-Power clones or copies. I know that plenty of sellers do so, for reasons of either laziness or deception, but it's misinformation that shouldn't be repeated, in my opinion. Those DA/SA guns are more like the offspring of a Hi-Power and a 59-series S&W, with the action and general operating system being much closer to the latter than the former.

[Ringolevio]

Pond, James Pond,

Welcome to TFL!

As you know by now, what you have is a Hungarian-made clone of the classic Browning Hi-Power. Any gun of this design and configuration is generically (regardless of manufacturer) referred to as a P-35.

The FEG P-35 may be an example of a clone that is equal, at least in function and reliability, to the original.

I own an FEG P-35, probably a later model than pictured. Mine has larger, ambidextrous safety levers, night sights, and Pachmayr-style grips, all factory standard. It's a swell gun, and it's my second favorite carry piece (after my stainless Colt Combat Commander). You could do a lot worse for your first gun!

Regarding the magazine safety, however: many aficionados will advise you to do away with this feature. You sound as if you are from "across the pond", but if you're now here in the USA, be advised that such an alteration can possibly cause legal problems (as would altering or defeating any factory-installed safety mechanism) should you ever have to use the gun for self-defense

Good luck!

[Smaug]

Welcome to the wonderful world of guns.

Before you jump in with both feet, be warned that it is an expensive hobby. However, it is one that could also some day save the life of you and your family!

Regarding revolvers vs. automatics, here are the pros and cons of each, as I see them:

Double action Revolver Strengths

• Not ammo sensitive; light or heavy loads will always cycle fine, even if you "limp wrist" it
• Simple to operate under stress: just squeeze the trigger. Got a dud round? Just squeeze the trigger again.
• Easy to understand how to load and unload them
• They are very accurate, when fired single action; ideal for target shooting. A bad single action revolver trigger pull is usually better than a bad auto pistol trigger pull
• No safety to worry about; the long, heavy double action trigger is the safety
• Can be reliably fired from compromising positions: i.e. weak hand, from the hip after you just got knocked down, etc.

Double action revolver weaknesses

• Low capacity (5-8 rounds, depending on model)
• Slower follow-up shots
• More expensive (factory) ammo
• Slower reloads

Auto Pistol Strengths

• Higher capacity
• Faster and more accurate follow-up shots
• Lower velocity and less inherent accuracy for a given barrel length
• Cheaper to feed
• Easier to clean and take down
• More stylish

Auto pistol weaknesses

• Sensitive to technique issues. For example, if you shoot it with a limp wrist or elbow, it may jam.
• Sensitive to load power. If you shoot factory ammo, this will probably not be a problem, unless you shoot the absolute cheapest stuff.
• Sensitive to bullet shape. certain bullet shapes will not feed reliably in some pistols. Usually, round nosed ammo feeds the best, but it is the least effective. Round nose, hollow point ammo is good for defense, but you have to shoot a box or two to make sure it will feed reliably in your auto. This is even more of an issue with vintage service guns, like the FEG Hi Power you pictured above. Military guns are made to function reliably with ball (round nose) ammo, because that's all the soldiers get. Older designs (such as the Hi Power and 1911 ) are even more sensitive to bullet shape.

As for whether you should buy the Hi Power, can you test fire it first? Is there any kind of guarantee, so that after you buy it you can get it fixed free if it doesn't work in a certain time frame?

In general, Hi Powers are great guns. They are a classic design from 1935, which the great John Browning started and a Belgian guy finished after Browning died. Many people (myself included) believe it is a superior design to the much vaunted 1911. It's just that the 1911 is chambered in 45 ACP, which gun people tend to prefer to 9mm.

FEGs are good Hi Powers. My Charles Daly Hi Power is made by FEG, I hear. It has been a great gun.





One of our esteemed late members, Stephen Camp, was a real, bonafide fan of the Hi Power. In fact, he dedicated his website to it. Rather than babble on too much about it here, let me just provide you with a link to his site:
http://hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html

What is your price range, and what are your other choices of guns to buy?

Where are you located? Perhaps one of us could meet you and take you under his wing? If you're near Chicago, I'd be happy to.

Best of luck!

[salvadore]

They are very accurate, when fired single action;

They are very accurate when fired double action also.

More stylish

I don't know what that means, but I'd put up a Diamond Back or a Python, a 2.5 or 3" model 66 or any large frame Smith with a tapered barrel for classiness.

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by salvador

They are very accurate when fired double action also.

Not by me!

Originally Posted by salvador

I don't know what that means, but I'd put up a Diamond Back or a Python, a 2.5 or 3" model 66 or any large frame Smith with a tapered barrel for classiness.

Are you still wearing bellbottoms too? Just teasing a bit. It is a matter of taste, but the VAST majority prefers autos these days.

[Mr.Blue]

If you go for a revolver, get a Smith and Wesson or a Ruger. You can get a used one pretty cheap. Get one that fires .357 magnum. This will give you flexibility in ammo, as you can shoot .38 Special, .38 Special +P, and .357 magnum.

My first handgun was a S&W 686 4 inch. It handles .357 magnum with limited recoil and .38 Specials feel like I'm shooting a cap gun. In single action, it is my most accurate gun.

[Pond, James Pond]

Thanks for the informative replies and nice to see that generally this pistol is well thought of.

Now to put some things in perspective! I live in Europe. I grew up in the UK, but a while back emigrated to the old Eastern block!

This means that the guns on sale are significantly more expensive than in the U.S.

Someone mentioned buying a Ruger P95. This costs €600, new ($840). The GP100 costs €650!! ($910) I could get this FEG and the Arminius HW38 for about the same price as one GP. (About $600 and $400, old and new, respectively)

On top of that, having a number of expensive hobbies, meaning that caliber cost sort of dictates what I can look for. I do want more than a .22, even if this is just for range shooting. I just like a bit more punch. However, .357 is just too expensive in the long run. It works out at about $560 for a 1000 rounds. 9mm and .38 work out at about $300-350/1000.

As things stand, I'll probably go to a range once, or twice a month and shoot, say, 50-100 rounds per visit.

As for personal protection, this is not my main motive for buying a gun. I have never, ever felt under threat in that manner. That might change, "knock on wood" it won't, but based on my personal experience I don't need to find that "never jams" pistol if it were to jam in the range. I'd just get one of the instructors to help me.

So, the FEG got short listed simply because it is one of the only pistols I could afford to look at, and it looked in better shape than the Star 9mm also on sale. Over here, new CZ 75Bs cost $900, new CZ P07 Duties cost $700, Glocks cost closer to $1000 and an STI Sentry is an arm and a leg!

I like revolvers, and I like pistols, but if I had to choose, right now the new Arminius would be cheapest to buy, as cheap to load, is new and has an OK reputation for being well built, as far as I've found on the web.

I'd like to buy both, but....
My licence exam is the first hurdle, the bank balance is the next. It is hard to justify a $700 outlay on two guns when I have our home to renovate!!

So, sorry for the verbose response, but I thought I'd give a bit of background as to my thinking and considerations. A lot of the advice has been sound, but unfortunately, some of the solutions are just not an option for me, mainly on the basis of what I can afford!

[salvadore]

Are you still wearing bellbottoms too? Just teasing a bit. It is a matter of taste, but the VAST majority prefers autos these days.

Gadzooks, does that mean when I carry a 1911 I have to wear plus fours?

I'm guessing from the forum numbers you are right about the auto loader preference. I can think of half a dozen classy auto loaders, mostly John Browning designs, and a luger...maybe ... I dunno....I personally can't put classy and plastic together in a sentence even tho they seem to be the wave.

[Smaug]

What other guns are available and in your price range?

Where in the eastern bloc are you?

There might be some (other) good military surplus pistols to be had. CZ 82 or Makarov, for instance.


-Jeremy
Sent from my iPod

[Pond, James Pond]

I now live in Estonia. As it happens I shot a Makarov this morning during my booked training for the licence exam. It was OK. That is what the test you on in the exam...

I also handled the FEG in the hunting store. Mmmmmmm.... comfy...! It was a nice pistol and felt very solid. I prefer that to the Makarov. There also was an equally comfy, but heavier Argentine FM Hi Power (M-90, based on the grip, I think!). That was very nice too. Both the FEG and FN were the same price.

I also handled the little Arminius HW38, new and HW3 second hand. Both seemed solid and comfortable, also at €300 and €225 respectively.

If the FEG is still on sale when/if i get my licence it may be a contender for my semi slot!

[Smaug]

FNs are usually preferred over FEGs, at least from a collectibility standpoint. FN was the original Belgian factory that produced Hi Powers in the 1930s.

But I think you should decide based more on condition.

Yes Hi Powers are one of the earliest pistols with a truly ergonomic grip. They run at higher power levels than Makarovs and CZ 82s, because of their longer barrels and higher pressure cartridge. But the barrels of the Mak and CZ are fixed, so they make up for their shorter sight radius somewhat.

I don't think anyone will dispute that the Hi Power is a good choice, and consensus is pretty rare here.

-Jeremy
Sent from my iPod

[Ringolevio]

Pond, James Pond:

As for personal protection, this is not my main motive for buying a gun. I have never, ever felt under threat in that manner. That might change, "knock on wood" it won't, but based on my personal experience I don't need to find that "never jams" pistol if it were to jam in the range. I'd just get one of the instructors to help me.

Y'mean like, "I drive a Yugo because I never have a pressing need to drive anywhere, and anyway I can always call for a taxi or a tow-truck"?

I gotta tell ya, this is a mindset I will never quite understand. Maybe it's because I'm an older-generation American who still believes that self-reliance is a major part of our American creed. So I like time-proven, reliable, dependable stuff, and my choice of one gun from those you mentioned would be the FEG or the Argentine HP (provided they were in good shape).

By my reckoning, those guns would be fun to shoot, would last forever, and could still be counted on to save my life should the need arise. And I'd have the satisfaction of owning a classic. Also, I doubt the world will ever run out of 9mm Parabellum ammo.

But Hey, whatever floats yer boat, as we say over here...

[Mr.Blue]

I wrote that you should get a .357 revolver. I realize that .357 magnum is expensive ammo, but at the range you should shoot .38 specials in it. In the event you want to keep the pistol loaded for home defense, you could use .38 special +P or .357 magnum for it. A .357 revolver allows for this variety in ammo. Good luck.

[Pond, James Pond]

Originally Posted by Ringolevio

Y'mean like, "I drive a Yugo because I never have a pressing need to drive anywhere, and anyway I can always call for a taxi or a tow-truck"?

That's not the analogy I would use. It's more a case of I don't wear a lifevest in bed in case I drown!!

I don't feel and never have felt under threat walking around my town/country so don't presently feel the need to wear a gun.
And I wouldn't consider myself unself-reliant: after all, I'm still alive!

However, it's good to know that both the models I've mentioned get a thumbs up from those in the know. They both felt nice and up close did look really nice. Unfortunately, I doubt I'd be able to try before I buy but the shop said that they have their gunsmith test everything before they sell, and they do good deals on amm: cheapest 1000 rounds bulk buy of 9mm yet!

@ Mr. Blue:

That is a good point which I hadn't thought of. Unfortunately, the only .357s I know I can buy here are the uber-expensive Ruger, as nice as they are. Perhaps this Arminius stockist can give me a price on the HW 357.... Something to investigate during my next lesson

[Mr.Blue]

Come to the USA, James Pond!! Then you can have a bunch of guns. Also, while many of us are always talking about carrying and home defense, the crime here is not out of control. I think sometimes we give the wrong impression of this country to the rest of the world. Sure, some inner cities have high crime, but the majority of America has very low crime. In fact, I grew up in New York City and violent crime there is very very low compared to other cities of it's size. We as gun enthusiasts just love to excercise our 2nd ammendment rights. Rights not used are rights that are lost. It's great to be an American!

[Pond, James Pond]

Thanks for the invite, Mr. Blue!!

However, I'm just about getting to grips Estonia!!

Rest assured, I don't believe the USA is quite the way Hollywood would have us believe!!

Personal experience has shown me it is a fascinating country full of decent people, based on what I've seen and those I have met: always the best way to judge any new place, IMHO!!

And you have mountains... good grief I miss mountains!

[Geezerbiker]

I had one of the FEG Hi Power clones and I'm still somewhat sorry I traded it off. I good a good shotgun in trade...

Anyway at the time I had the FEG and an Argentine FM Hi Power. I kept the wrong one. The FM was a real ****...

Tony

[midshark]

Hi James,
I own one of the FEG PJK-9HPs and really like it- I think it would be a great first pistol.
And, from the picture you posted, it would appear that somebody has already removed the magazine disconnect (the small roll pin in the trigger is gone).