Brass case cleaning

[HoraceHogsnort]

Daggs01 wrote: "I did read somewhere that Brasso makes them brittle so i wont be using that."

Its the ammonia in the Brasso that does it.

[brickeyee]

According to Hatcher's Notebook, even lightly greased bullets "dangerously" raise pressures.

Better go back and read that again.

Lubricated bullets do nothing to raise pressure.

Lubricated shells (cases) DO increase bolt thrust.

But "shells" are not "bullets".

A fact Mr Hatcher surely new and you do not.

[Daggs01]

I always put in a small rag which catches all the dirt and dust.

[Slamfire]

Better go back and read that again.

Lubricated bullets do nothing to raise pressure.

Lubricated shells (cases) DO increase bolt thrust.

But "shells" are not "bullets".

A fact Mr Hatcher surely new and you do not.

Actually I have. Maybe you can explain why lubricated cases are good in the front of his book, but bad in the back?

Page 39 of his book Hatcher begins a section that has an excellent explanation why lubricated cartridges were necessary in the early automatic gun mechanisms. These are tests which he wrote about in Army Journals of the period.

For lubricated cases, top of page 41 summarizes it well. Lubricated cartridges were needed for the Schwarzlose, (oiler in mechanism) Pedersen rifle (ceresin wax) , the oil soaked pads used in the Thompson Autorifle “worked as long as the oiled pads were used” page 153.

The Tin Can section is all about greased bullets anyway. Not oiled. Greased bullets are bad. So moly grease on bullets must be bad.

You know, because you have read his book so thoroughly, that competitors had been greasing their cupro nickel bullets for a long time. At least since 1906.

And yet in 1921 with Tin Can ammunition, this is the first time that anyone had problems with greased bullets.

[jaguarxk120]

If you finish reading the section on tin can ammunition, the section explains that new cases were used with the tin plated bullets. When the tin plated bullets were loaded into new cases they pressure soldered the bullet to the case neck. Weather bullets were greased or not pressures went sky high as the case and bullet became one piece.

The section also talks about finding spent bullets down range with the front half of the case still attached, this was due to the pressure soldering effect with this ammunition.

They also did a work up on bullet pull and measured how mush it took to pull a tin plated bullet out of the new cases.

[OldLincoln]

I've not done this but have wondered about using glass media. When I bought a new sand filter for my swimming pool a couple years back, the shop talked me into buying tumbled glass instead of sand. It's about the same granularity, weighs less and of course is washable.

I'm so new at this I've only used my new tumbler twice with corn and Brasso. I couldn't help but notice that ammonia odor but didn't know where it came from. Guess I'll try something else next time, like that liquid car wax that comes in the orange bottle.

[Clark]

I was watching a David Tubb video last night and David Tubb said to clean your brass after approximately five reloadings. He also stated to "NOT" polish the brass to a high luster because it would not grip the chamber walls as well and increase bolt thrust.

*
o Guillaume Amontons (1663-1705) France
It was Guillaume Amontons who first established that there existed a proportional relationship between friction force and the mutual pressure (or force) between the bodies in contact. We recognize that relationship when we divide friction force by normal force - and identifying the quotient as the "coefficient of friction". Amontons' paper "De la résistance causée dans les machines" was published in 1699 in Memoires de l'Académie des Sciences.

ƒ = μN

microscopic description

miscellaneous stuff

* Recently it has been shown that the lubricant properties of graphite disappear under ultra high vacuum, and hence that molecules of gases, such as oxygen and nitrogen, most probably act as a kind of molecular grease to help the sheets slide past each other.
* Roughness is a minor factor affecting friction. Friction is often higher between smooth surfaces. Insects can walk on windows.

What does it all mean?
It seems that Tubb may have adopted the Massad Ayoob - Hunter Thompson standard for research and journalism.

[Slamfire]

You mean Gonzo Journalism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

I think the basic problem is that in 1947, just when Hatcher is retiring as a Major General, he is there, in front of his typewriter, contemplating the future and writing his book.

As a retiree, Hatcher is looking for favors, free bees and future work with his old Agency. He sure is not going to say anything bad about his old Agency or his Buds, some of whom are working at the NRA.

So instead of critically looking at what a bore obstruction causes, he simply blames the civilians for the problems. That is what the Ordnance Department did, they found that civilians were greasing bullets, ignored the cold soldering they created, concocted a reasonable sounding theory, ran some rigged tests, and guess what, it is all the civilian’s fault!

It did not help anything that virtually all the actions on the line were the single heat treat actions. These were so iffy in construction that seven years later the Army decided to scrap all 1,000,000 single heat treat receivers when those came in for rebuild.

All of those that repeat Hatcher ignore the contradictions in his book, and the evidence that moly greased bullets have been pressure tested and don’t cause dangerous pressure rises.

They also ignore all the oils and greases used on externally lubricated cases for decades. Still being used. This stuff was often beeswax, covered the bullet and case necks and never caused any pressure problems.

They also ignore all the blow back actions, such as the Polisi cannon, that used grease. Had to use grease to function. Many had oilers. Col Chin calls blowbacks "oil a matics".

This is one of these myths and legends perpetuated by Gunwriters who for decades have been repeating and continue to repeat this section from Hatcher’s Notebook.

What technical background do Gunwriters have? The best of them are Journalist majors.

People are correct in saying that lubricated cases increase bolt thrust, but increase it over what?

What are the design limits of the action?

What load was the action designed to hold?

Is the cartridge case a gas seal or a structural member?
(Its a gas seal, you never design a system assuming the seal or the gasket carries load. Just double gasket your warped cylinder head and see how long the gasket holds )

Is the reduction of load when the case and chamber are dry something that was intentional, or are they losses due to essentially “parasitic losses”.

Actions are designed to carry the full thrust of the cartridge case ignoring all case friction. The only debate is whether the internal diameter or external diameter of the case is used as the starting point.

Any case friction is in fact undesirable as it takes extra design features, such as primary extraction, flutes, additional dwell, and reinforcement of extractors, to pull the case off the chamber walls.

Case head separations occur because the front of the case is glued to the chamber while the rear stretches to the bolt head. The case is in fact the weakest link in the system.

Folks who are concerned about dangerous pressures should first and foremost cut their powder charges. The pressure rise is exponential with smokeless powders.

[Clark]

Yes Slamfire, you are right about everything.
But the world runs on fear and ignorance, and the gun culture is no exception.

[Slamfire]

Yes Slamfire, you are right about everything.
But the world runs on fear and ignorance, and the gun culture is no exception.

Thanks for the support. I feel less alone

[demigod]

But the world runs on fear and ignorance, and the gun culture is no exception.

The gun culture is the pinnacle of fear and ignorance.

[toy4Rick]

Hey gang,

I just finished polishing 4500 9mm brass in a Lyman 1200 Pro using lizard litter and 1 cap full of NuFinish, 2 hours, and WOW, works great. 8 runs of brass in the Lyman with 1 batch of litter so I have tons for the future. It does produce some dust but is manageable with a couple of dryer sheets.

Have fun
Toy4Rick

[Daggs01]

I just done a batch using rice with some pollish called Purple by California Customs for 45 min and they are like new on the outside just a little dirty on the inside.

[coyote_slayer]

The best brass cleaning method out there is Stainless Tumbling Media. Yes, it does cost a bit more to get setup but it's a one time purchase. It is amazing how clean the brass comes out each time. Here is a review of it

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...umbling-media/