Brass processing

studman5578 · January 16, 2010, 10:54 AM

My least favorite part about reloading is triming the brass. Right now I use a Lee zip trim and a ball grip cutter, and champfer and deburr the case mouth. I can do the entire loading process in the time it takes to trim. Do any of you have a specific sequence that makes it quicker? I'm looking about getting into loading semi-comercially to sell at gunshows and the like and am looking for ways to speed things up a bit. Thanks for any sugestions!

Also, how many times can you fire straght-walled cases before you need to trim again for 223 and 30-06?

Sevens · January 16, 2010, 12:15 PM

I really like Lee products and though I admit up front that their construction and materials aren't always up to the competition's version of a similar product, they deliver well for the price point. HOWEVER, there are some tools they offer that are, IMO, better left behind.

I think the zip trim is one of those items. I think it's a rinky-dink little item that isn't worth my time or money.

Good news is that the Lee cutting tools work very well when chucked in to a variable speed drill, and cordless is better but not a deal breaker.

Quote:

I'm looking about getting into loading semi-comercially to sell at gunshows and the like and am looking for ways to speed things up a bit. Thanks for any sugestions!

Have you seriously looked in to this? You need a type 7 FFL and it's not cheap. This is a much bigger venture than you might imagine if you haven't actually looked in to it. For a guy who trims each piece of brass on Lee equipment, I'm not sure if one guy can make the volume of ammo and turn any kind of profit given the hoops you have to jump through to do it legally.

If you did the research and you are serious then you need to look in to a Giraud trimmer and save yourself a mountain of time and work.

wncchester · January 16, 2010, 12:24 PM

"Also, how many times can you fire straght-walled cases before you need to trim again for 223 and 30-06?"

In addition to the above (very valid) comments, and without any intention to flame you, anyone who words and asks this kind of question is NOT yet experienced enough to tackle what you are looking at. The 223 and -06 are not straight walled cases but the answer you seek is anywhere from 4-5 to maybe 10 times that much, depending on how it's loaded, if it gets annealed, the chamber it's fired in and how it's resized. (See what I mean?)

studman5578 · January 16, 2010, 01:30 PM

i didn't mean that the 06 and 223 are straight walled cases, i meant straight walled AND 06 and 223. those are cases i own. sorry for the typo, and yes I see what you mean.

studman5578 · January 16, 2010, 01:35 PM

Sevens,

So to set up a booth at a gun show and sell remanufactured ammunition, I would need a type 7 FFL?

No, I have not seriously looked into it yet. That's what this thread is (indirectly) about, I want to see if I can expedite some of the loading steps and see if i can make my loading process fast enough to make it worthwhile.

**Unclenick** · January 16, 2010, 01:40 PM

If you actually have the capital for the class 7 license and the expensive special liability insurance you need, you want to be selling a pretty good volume of ammo or catering to CAS shooters firing obsolete calibers, or to benchrest and varmint custom recipe load shooters who will pay a lot per round. If you have lower cost high volume production of a caliber, in that instance you will be able to justify buying a motorized trimmer. I would recommend the Giraud for a commercial application because of the rotatable cutter inserts. For commercial applications you can buy separate cutters for each chambering to make changeover faster. The Giraud cutter is shaped so it trims and chamfers the inside and deburrs the outside of the case mouth all at once. I run between two and five seconds per case on mine, depending how much metal has to come off? Use the search function on YouTube to see demos of the Giraud trimmer. It's ball bearing construction makes it more suitable for commercial applications that the others available, IMHO.

Low pressure straight wall cases never need trimming unless you are evening them up for your crimp die. As a rule of thumb, cartridges loaded to less than about 30,000 psi don't grow. Many, like .45 ACP, .38 Special, and so on, actually shorten very slightly with each load cycle. For those low pressure cases, you just shoot them until the case mouths split. I know of no one who anneals them. It's not impossible to do, but unless they are custom turned brass for the rare CAS chamberings, pistol brass isn't usually considered expensive enough to be worth going to that trouble. I've had .45 ACP I used for light target loads last thorugh 50 reloadings before it got too short.

Bottleneck rifle cases don't always grow uniformly and their life expectancy isn't uniform. For commercial loading you therefore want to trim every time, for liabiilty reasons. You likely want an annealing machine and to anneal every time if you don't have some way to guarantee it's only been fired once and never reloaded before (such military brass with a crimp still intact on the primer). If I were doing it, since some guns, especially full auto, will stretch cases further than they can be resized down enough to fit all chambers, I would want a dial indicator tool to check that the shoulder didn't need too much setting back before I did more than clean it. Such a tool will sort the bent rims out, too.

You will want a primer pocket swaging tool, like the Dillon 600 if you are going to decap and load once-fired military cases.

P.S., I believe the BATFE has information on line about where they draw the line on requiring a license. It seems to me that if you undertake to make money from it on a regular basis, they consider you a commercial enterprise, and you need it, but you should find and read their definition for yourself. I, myself, wouldn't risk liability exposure of reloading for others without having both a license and insurance (you probably can't get the insurance without the license). I wouldn't work loads up to sell to others without a pressure test rig for each chambering, either. The only exception to the pressure test gear would be those custom recipe loads, where the rifle maker has already worked up the recipe and determined the exact components used.

studman5578 · January 16, 2010, 03:13 PM

Good point, thanks for the advice and information. Anybody out there who does this kind of thing and can give insight to more problems
not yet addressed?

Hammonje · January 16, 2010, 05:51 PM

Big +1 on the Giraud. Best piece of equipment for trimming available.

January 16, 2010, 10:54 AM	#1
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	Brass processing My least favorite part about reloading is triming the brass. Right now I use a Lee zip trim and a ball grip cutter, and champfer and deburr the case mouth. I can do the entire loading process in the time it takes to trim. Do any of you have a specific sequence that makes it quicker? I'm looking about getting into loading semi-comercially to sell at gunshows and the like and am looking for ways to speed things up a bit. Thanks for any sugestions! Also, how many times can you fire straght-walled cases before you need to trim again for 223 and 30-06?

January 16, 2010, 12:24 PM	#3
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Also, how many times can you fire straght-walled cases before you need to trim again for 223 and 30-06?" In addition to the above (very valid) comments, and without any intention to flame you, anyone who words and asks this kind of question is NOT yet experienced enough to tackle what you are looking at. The 223 and -06 are not straight walled cases but the answer you seek is anywhere from 4-5 to maybe 10 times that much, depending on how it's loaded, if it gets annealed, the chamber it's fired in and how it's resized. (See what I mean?) Last edited by wncchester; January 16, 2010 at 12:41 PM.

January 16, 2010, 01:40 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,732	If you actually have the capital for the class 7 license and the expensive special liability insurance you need, you want to be selling a pretty good volume of ammo or catering to CAS shooters firing obsolete calibers, or to benchrest and varmint custom recipe load shooters who will pay a lot per round. If you have lower cost high volume production of a caliber, in that instance you will be able to justify buying a motorized trimmer. I would recommend the Giraud for a commercial application because of the rotatable cutter inserts. For commercial applications you can buy separate cutters for each chambering to make changeover faster. The Giraud cutter is shaped so it trims and chamfers the inside and deburrs the outside of the case mouth all at once. I run between two and five seconds per case on mine, depending how much metal has to come off? Use the search function on YouTube to see demos of the Giraud trimmer. It's ball bearing construction makes it more suitable for commercial applications that the others available, IMHO. Low pressure straight wall cases never need trimming unless you are evening them up for your crimp die. As a rule of thumb, cartridges loaded to less than about 30,000 psi don't grow. Many, like .45 ACP, .38 Special, and so on, actually shorten very slightly with each load cycle. For those low pressure cases, you just shoot them until the case mouths split. I know of no one who anneals them. It's not impossible to do, but unless they are custom turned brass for the rare CAS chamberings, pistol brass isn't usually considered expensive enough to be worth going to that trouble. I've had .45 ACP I used for light target loads last thorugh 50 reloadings before it got too short. Bottleneck rifle cases don't always grow uniformly and their life expectancy isn't uniform. For commercial loading you therefore want to trim every time, for liabiilty reasons. You likely want an annealing machine and to anneal every time if you don't have some way to guarantee it's only been fired once and never reloaded before (such military brass with a crimp still intact on the primer). If I were doing it, since some guns, especially full auto, will stretch cases further than they can be resized down enough to fit all chambers, I would want a dial indicator tool to check that the shoulder didn't need too much setting back before I did more than clean it. Such a tool will sort the bent rims out, too. You will want a primer pocket swaging tool, like the Dillon 600 if you are going to decap and load once-fired military cases. P.S., I believe the BATFE has information on line about where they draw the line on requiring a license. It seems to me that if you undertake to make money from it on a regular basis, they consider you a commercial enterprise, and you need it, but you should find and read their definition for yourself. I, myself, wouldn't risk liability exposure of reloading for others without having both a license and insurance (you probably can't get the insurance without the license). I wouldn't work loads up to sell to others without a pressure test rig for each chambering, either. The only exception to the pressure test gear would be those custom recipe loads, where the rifle maker has already worked up the recipe and determined the exact components used. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; January 16, 2010 at 01:50 PM.

January 16, 2010, 01:30 PM	#4
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	i didn't mean that the 06 and 223 are straight walled cases, i meant straight walled AND 06 and 223. those are cases i own. sorry for the typo, and yes I see what you mean.

January 16, 2010, 01:35 PM	#5
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	Sevens, So to set up a booth at a gun show and sell remanufactured ammunition, I would need a type 7 FFL? No, I have not seriously looked into it yet. That's what this thread is (indirectly) about, I want to see if I can expedite some of the loading steps and see if i can make my loading process fast enough to make it worthwhile.

January 16, 2010, 03:13 PM	#7
studman5578 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Varying between 1 and 3 hours from Chicago Posts: 152	Good point, thanks for the advice and information. Anybody out there who does this kind of thing and can give insight to more problems not yet addressed?

January 16, 2010, 05:51 PM	#8
Hammonje Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2010 Location: Lilburn, GA Posts: 117	Big +1 on the Giraud. Best piece of equipment for trimming available.