i think i have an OAL issue

Kyo · September 30, 2009, 11:17 PM

Ok, so I went to the range to shoot off 150 of my reloads.
4.6 grains Bullseye over 185g LSWC with an OAL of 1.230 - 1.239
Gun is a Ruger P345 made in Feb of 2009

As I shot, i saw something frequent that started bugging me. The cartridge would keep getting stuck inside the barrel when the slide would come back out, and the next round would try to load up and couldn't. This happened more than 10 times. It has to be my reloads, because the gun functions 100% with everything else I shoot, even Atlanta Arms & Ammo reloads.

The reason I think it is the OAL, is because the base of these cartridges, has marks from the extractor looking like the extractor tried to take the cartridge out, but could not so it nicked the lip of the cartridge.

Am I seating these too low for the extractor to properly grab the lip of the cartridge? Anyone else have issues with this?
Could it possibly be that the case is getting too wide with the lead bullet being put in, so its a tighter fit in the chamber, and has a harder time coming out?

Thanks for reading and any answers.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · September 30, 2009, 11:27 PM

Quote:

4.6 grains Bullseye over 185g LSWC

There is your problem right there...try putting the powder UNDER the bullet.

Did you take your barrel off and test to see if your reloads fit in the chamber and fall out easily?? I would start there and make sure that you taper crimp is taking all of the flare out of the case and digs into the lead bullet slightly. Also check to make sure you are not getting bullet setback in the case when the rounds are being chambered. Many things to check...this is where I would start.

QBall45 · September 30, 2009, 11:33 PM

Are you using a Factory Crimp Die? Like the one Lee makes with the carbide post sizing ring in it. This helps correct a lot of our relpoading mistakes.

Your OAL looks to be ok.

Kyo · October 1, 2009, 12:34 AM

i did in fact take out the barrel and do that when i first started reloading and made my permanent adjustments to set up my dies.
Using a Lee classic turret(4 holes) with the Factory Crimp Die.
You think I need to tighten my crimp? I thought 45's don't need it. The crimp is set on the die to somewhere in the "light" category. I will tighten it to see what it does. I can try it out next batch I do.
What do you mean bullet setback when I chamber the round?

Other notes- 50 were normal brass- the other 100 were tin plated from Speer and Remington. 90% speer. does it matter?

NWPilgrim · October 1, 2009, 01:14 AM

On a pistol cartridge you only need to crimp enough to take out the case mouth belling. Ideal is about .001" - .002" less than max case diameter at the mouth.

For the .45ACP this ideal crimped mouth would be: .471" - .472"

If you crimp too much the case mouth will slip past the little ledge in the chamber it is supposed to headspace against.

chris in va · October 1, 2009, 09:25 PM

Don't know if this helps any, but...

My Lyman manual shows a 185 *jacketed* SWC with 3.5-5.6gr of Bullseye and OAL of 1.135.

I recently bought some TC lead bullets for use in my various 9mm pistols, and my CZ would only start chambering reliably at 1.045, which is quite a bit shorter than the recommended OAL for regular FMJ or LRN.

It had the same symptoms you're describing until I ran it down in OAL.

Quote:

What do you mean bullet setback when I chamber the round?

Bullet setback is the bullet seating further into the case every time it's chambered, and IIRC can cause a dangerous high pressure situation. A taper crimp grabs the bullet and helps prevent that from happening.

But, a caveat...I'm very new to all this and the other guys can clarify.

wncchester · October 2, 2009, 10:27 AM

"Am I seating these too low for the extractor to properly grab the lip of the cartridge? "

Not sure how the OAL would affect "extractor grip" but I can tell you for sure how to find out; try changing it.

**Unclenick** · October 2, 2009, 11:37 AM

Kyo,

Setback happens when you have too little crimp. The bullet gets pushed back into the case on loading. That raises pressure quite substantially. It is especially a problem with lubricated cast bullets which can often be pushed deeper by thumb pressure alone, where jacketed bullets have enough friction with the case wall not to slip that way. You really want the crimp to bite into a lead bullet just enough to prevent that. The SAAMI specification for the diameter of the cartridge at the case mouth is 0.472" maximum, -0.006" minimum. In other words, you can crimp down to 0.466" and still be within specifications. With most cases, that will let you bite into the bullet well enough.

Your description of the extractor mark suggests it is possible you have excess pressure. Clearly, the extractor is slipping off because the case won't pull clear at cycle time. Thus is could be setback that is causing the issue.

Most chambers in .45's have some extra length, so most guns seem to be headspacing on the extractor hook rather than the step from the chamber down to the bore, as Browning originally intended. A good many of us who experimented with .45 accuracy for bullseye target shooting found that for lubricated lead bullets, headspacing on the bullet itself gave the best accuracy, provided the chamber wasn't so long that this caused the cartridges to be unable to fit in the magazine (I had that once). In your gun, this will mean a longer COL, rather than a shorter one that raises pressure. The image below shows how to use a 1911 barrel as a gauge for headspacing on the lead bullet (third from left).

Kyo · October 2, 2009, 01:19 PM

yea, you showed me that pic when i first started reloading. the lead reloads were flush with the end of the barrel at the top like the pics show. I compared them to Hornady 230g TAP +p's and the bullet there was not flush, it was raised a little above. so yea, i am going to have to seat them less. And maybe make the crimp heavier. not too heavy though, cause i don't want to kill my cases.

September 30, 2009, 11:17 PM	#1
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i think i have an OAL issue Ok, so I went to the range to shoot off 150 of my reloads. 4.6 grains Bullseye over 185g LSWC with an OAL of 1.230 - 1.239 Gun is a Ruger P345 made in Feb of 2009 As I shot, i saw something frequent that started bugging me. The cartridge would keep getting stuck inside the barrel when the slide would come back out, and the next round would try to load up and couldn't. This happened more than 10 times. It has to be my reloads, because the gun functions 100% with everything else I shoot, even Atlanta Arms & Ammo reloads. The reason I think it is the OAL, is because the base of these cartridges, has marks from the extractor looking like the extractor tried to take the cartridge out, but could not so it nicked the lip of the cartridge. Am I seating these too low for the extractor to properly grab the lip of the cartridge? Anyone else have issues with this? Could it possibly be that the case is getting too wide with the lead bullet being put in, so its a tighter fit in the chamber, and has a harder time coming out? Thanks for reading and any answers.

October 1, 2009, 01:14 AM	#5
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,357	On a pistol cartridge you only need to crimp enough to take out the case mouth belling. Ideal is about .001" - .002" less than max case diameter at the mouth. For the .45ACP this ideal crimped mouth would be: .471" - .472" If you crimp too much the case mouth will slip past the little ledge in the chamber it is supposed to headspace against. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

October 2, 2009, 11:37 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,735	Kyo, Setback happens when you have too little crimp. The bullet gets pushed back into the case on loading. That raises pressure quite substantially. It is especially a problem with lubricated cast bullets which can often be pushed deeper by thumb pressure alone, where jacketed bullets have enough friction with the case wall not to slip that way. You really want the crimp to bite into a lead bullet just enough to prevent that. The SAAMI specification for the diameter of the cartridge at the case mouth is 0.472" maximum, -0.006" minimum. In other words, you can crimp down to 0.466" and still be within specifications. With most cases, that will let you bite into the bullet well enough. Your description of the extractor mark suggests it is possible you have excess pressure. Clearly, the extractor is slipping off because the case won't pull clear at cycle time. Thus is could be setback that is causing the issue. Most chambers in .45's have some extra length, so most guns seem to be headspacing on the extractor hook rather than the step from the chamber down to the bore, as Browning originally intended. A good many of us who experimented with .45 accuracy for bullseye target shooting found that for lubricated lead bullets, headspacing on the bullet itself gave the best accuracy, provided the chamber wasn't so long that this caused the cartridges to be unable to fit in the magazine (I had that once). In your gun, this will mean a longer COL, rather than a shorter one that raises pressure. The image below shows how to use a 1911 barrel as a gauge for headspacing on the lead bullet (third from left). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 30, 2009, 11:33 PM	#3
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	Are you using a Factory Crimp Die? Like the one Lee makes with the carbide post sizing ring in it. This helps correct a lot of our relpoading mistakes. Your OAL looks to be ok.

October 1, 2009, 12:34 AM	#4
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i did in fact take out the barrel and do that when i first started reloading and made my permanent adjustments to set up my dies. Using a Lee classic turret(4 holes) with the Factory Crimp Die. You think I need to tighten my crimp? I thought 45's don't need it. The crimp is set on the die to somewhere in the "light" category. I will tighten it to see what it does. I can try it out next batch I do. What do you mean bullet setback when I chamber the round? Other notes- 50 were normal brass- the other 100 were tin plated from Speer and Remington. 90% speer. does it matter?

October 2, 2009, 10:27 AM	#7
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Am I seating these too low for the extractor to properly grab the lip of the cartridge? " Not sure how the OAL would affect "extractor grip" but I can tell you for sure how to find out; try changing it.

October 2, 2009, 01:19 PM	#9
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	yea, you showed me that pic when i first started reloading. the lead reloads were flush with the end of the barrel at the top like the pics show. I compared them to Hornady 230g TAP +p's and the bullet there was not flush, it was raised a little above. so yea, i am going to have to seat them less. And maybe make the crimp heavier. not too heavy though, cause i don't want to kill my cases.