Seating revolver bullets EXTRA loooonggg?

Doodlebugger45 · July 16, 2009, 09:52 PM

I've been kinda thinking about all this for several days ever since there was a thread on the forum about loading up 38 specials to 357 mag levels to be fired in a 357 revolver. As I said then, I had sort of experimented with doing something similar one time. I had taken 38 special cases and gradually worked them up past 38 special +P loads. I never had any signs of excess pressure but eventually, the accuracy went down, down as I kept increasing the charge. I figured at the time that it might have been due to the extra distance the bullet had to travel before it got to the cylinder throat which is set up for 357 mag length cartridges. Anyway, it was a silly experiment because why do such a thing when I have perfectly good 357 cases to load up higher velocities?

But then someone mentioned that IF you seat that bullet in the 38 special out EXTRA long, so that it's approaching the same overall cartridge length of a 357 mag cartridge, everything would be better dimension-wise. Basically load the 38 special to 1.570" instead of 1.455". Made sense I guess but I still had no reason to try it.

But today I was showing my BFR to someone and I mentioned that my particular revolver was chambered for 480 Ruger only, not 475 like some of them are. The cylinder is certainly long enough to take the 475 Linebaugh cartridge but the cylinder throat starts too early in the cylinder to allow the 475 Linebaugh case to fit in. He asked why couldn't I just have each throat reamed out about 0.15" to let the long case fit in. Sure it's possible, but I have decided that the 480 Ruger cartridge has PLENTY of power and recoil for me just the way it is, thank you.

But.... all this got me to thinking about the deal with 44 mag and 445 SuperMag cartridges. I have a S&W 629 and I got to measuring things this evening. Sure enough, with a standard 240 gr bullet loaded in it to a COAL of 1.575", well I STILL have about 0.20" of clearance between the tip of the bullet and the end of the cylinder.

Soooo.. for anyone still bothering to read this far... my question is could I seat the 44 mag bullet all the way out to 1.775" or so for a COAL? That would give me an extra 0.200" of "extra" cartridge capacity. Not as much as a true 445 SuperMag, but it's still more than the difference in length between a 38 and a 357 or the difference between a 480 Ruger vs a 475 Linebaugh.

I have no idea what it would do to pressures. Obviously, going from 38 +P to 357 generates a lot more pressure, but in going from a 480 to 475, the pressures stay about the same. I guess the sane thing would be to take a regular 44 mag load and just start gradually lengthening the seating depth right? When you got it long enough, if everything was looking good, then you could gradually start increasing charge?

Why would I want to do this you ask? Hmmm.... I dunno. It's just a science experiment I guess. But surely others have already tried it before.

Sport45 · July 16, 2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

As I said then, I had sort of experimented with doing something similar one time. I had taken 38 special cases and gradually worked them up past 38 special +P loads. I never had any signs of excess pressure

You didn't see signs of excess pressure because you were firing them in a .357mag revolver. They may well have destroyed a .38 special revolver. The brass case is basically just a gasket that seals the pressure in the chamber. If the case "sticks" it's because the chamber swelled on firing. The case will always swell to the chamber size and them relax a bit.

The same would hold true in what you are describing now. You will start sticking cases when you approach dangerous pressure levels in the gun you are trying them in.

Quote:

Why would I want to do this you ask? Hmmm.... I dunno.

Maybe because you counted your fingers and decided you had a few extras to spare?

Doodlebugger45 · July 17, 2009, 12:11 AM

That is true. I know Elmer Keith blew up some guns and I would assume he was looking for pressure signs as well along the way.

But that's why I was asking about seating the bullets out longer. If I were to do that, then wouldn't that reduce the max pressure, while at the same time allowing more total powder for a longer burn time and increased velocity? I mean is there any harm in seating your bullets out as far as your cylinder length will allow?

chriske · July 17, 2009, 08:27 AM

Just my 2 cts :
Until recently I seated 158-Gr. LSWC and LRN bullets in .38 Spl cases at COL between 37,25 to 37.35 mm ( =1.466" to 1.470 "), depending on exact bullet tip profile.
After a tip from a German bulletmaker, I tried seating them at COL 38.4 mm (= 1.512 ").
The longer ones always proved more accurate.

Sport45 · July 17, 2009, 08:33 AM

Are you seating them out in an attempt to get better accuracy? Or are you trying to turn your .44mag into a .445 supermag?

Like Elmer Keith, are you willing to blow up a few guns along the way?

tmd11111 · July 17, 2009, 10:02 AM

Your not trying anything that hasn't been tried before. One thing though. DON'T try it with your S&W. They may be pretty, they may be smooth, but one thing they ain't is STRONG ENOUGH to handle excessive pressures. Guns such as Ruger Super Redhawks and T/C contenders can handle almost any load you can fit in the tube but that S&W cant.

mtnbkr · July 17, 2009, 10:13 AM

IIRC, Skeeter Skelton had a 38special load that he used in 357mag guns. The bullet was a special design with the crimp groove lower on the bullet so more of it stuck out of the case. He loaded them to near 357mag loads. The reason for this was to use heavy bullets in a 357mag with a short cylinder.

It has been a while since I read about this, so the details might be a bit off.

Edit: This is a clearer description of what he was trying to accomplish from someone who knew him...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....54&postcount=6

Chris

azredhawk44 · July 17, 2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Soooo.. for anyone still bothering to read this far... my question is could I seat the 44 mag bullet all the way out to 1.775" or so for a COAL? That would give me an extra 0.200" of "extra" cartridge capacity. Not as much as a true 445 SuperMag, but it's still more than the difference in length between a 38 and a 357 or the difference between a 480 Ruger vs a 475 Linebaugh.

This is what Buffalo Bore and Garrett do with their 330gr and heavier cartridges.

You just plain-out can't fit them in the cylinder of a S&W 29 or 629 though. Too long.

I've played this game with 300gr bullets, H110 and my 5.5" Redhawk though. Great big long cylinder on that one, and I made cartridges that dang near felt like they were coming from my friend's .454 Freedom Arms.

The problem you run into is making certain you have a good enough crimp that during the recoil of one shot, you're not rattling the bullets loose on the rest of the cylinder. I've had some bullets jump crimp in the past playing this game.

.44 mag has a lot of "undocumented" upper threshold, but it stays undocumented for a pretty good reason: The Model 29 and 629 just weren't made for it.

mtnbkr · July 17, 2009, 11:22 AM

Az, what velocities were you getting? I'm easily hitting 1300 with 300s and have pushed them faster in the past (no thanks, 300@1300 is plenty) with the bullet seated to the crimp groove (Cast Performance 300 WFNGC).

Chris

azredhawk44 · July 17, 2009, 11:41 AM

No chronometer.... just the roots of my teeth rattling.

I'm not going to publish the load here, but I was seating 300gr JSP's to 1.790" OAL. Then I did the math on the available internal case capacity and ratioed that against previous case capacity of a published H110 load, and increased accordingly.

DANGER: DOING THE ABOVE WILL MOST CERTAINLY INVOLVE PERSONAL RISK OR DEATH, OR DAMAGE TO YOUR FIREARM. NEITHER THEFIRINGLINE.COM NOR THIS POSTER ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DUMB ACTIONS. IN A WORD, DON'T DO IT.

I ended up jumping crimp on the above load. I had about 0.015 clearance from the bullet tip to the forcing cone. Probably would work better with extremely hard cast bullets with a custom crimp groove location.

FYI, the 454 Casull has a published OAL of 1.765".

Doodlebugger45 · July 17, 2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Are you seating them out in an attempt to get better accuracy? Or are you trying to turn your .44mag into a .445 supermag?

Like Elmer Keith, are you willing to blow up a few guns along the way

It's an attempt to get better accuracy at pretty fast velocities. It doesn't have to be anywhere close to 445 supermag velocities.

Now that I'm feeling good about reloading, it's like turning a kid loose in a toy store. That 629 revolver has always given me outstanding accuracy with factory ammo using 240 gr jacketed and lead bullets. Those JHP and soft lead bullets are not necessarily the best choice for hunting, but that's what I used. Now that I'm reloading, I decided to try the 250 gr hard cast Keith type bullets. I only borrowed about 20 of those from a friend and put together a few loads. Granted, that's not many to judge from, but that's all I had available. The results so far haven't been all that impressive. There are lots of loads published out there, some of them claiming velocities up to 1500 fps. I haven't been pushing them anywhere near those loads yet. But at the low end of the loads, the accuracy was OK, about what I am used to. But as the loads got hotter, the groups opened up beyond what I would take hunting with me. No, I don't have a chronograph so I can't give velocities, but based on the looad data and their velocities, I'm guessing I'm around 1200 fps.

So, anyway, that's my goal is to be able to get very good accuracy with a 250 gr hard cast bullet at around 1400 fps or so. Sure, I have a whole lot of "conventional" loads to explore. I'm just imagining all the other possible variables to try.

And as someone else said, perhaps the 629 isn't the one to experiment with high pressures. I'm fixing to get a Super Blackhawk fairly soon. That is stronger. It's just that the 629 is so nice to shoot...

azredhawk44 · July 17, 2009, 12:05 PM

If you're gonna deliberately get a gun to play with long OAL .44 loads, the best ones on the market are the Redhawk, Super Redhawk, Anaconda and Dan Wesson. Magnum Research BFR is supposed to be pretty good in cylinder length, too. I've heard that the FA's don't play this game well for one reason or other. Can't remember why.

The Super Blackhawk has a shorter cylinder than the Redhawk. Plenty strong, but still not the same potential.

The cheapest good buy you could find would be a used Dan Wesson. I'm still kicking myself for passing one up for $300 at a gun show a couple years ago.

Edited: H110 and Win296 are NOT good powders to use for extended length games, BTW. Unless you're willing to do some geometry calculations. Volume of a cylinder, weight/volume conversions, things like that.

I'd recommend AA#7 or #9 as good powders to play with. They fill more than 1/2 the case so you get consistent ignition from the flash hole, but aren't detonation prone from having too much empty space in the case like H110 or BP.

mtnbkr · July 17, 2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

No, I don't have a chronograph so I can't give velocities,
but based on the looad data and their velocities, I'm guessing I'm around 1200 fps.

Don't guess. Get a chrono. You can get Shooting Chrony's base model for less than $100.

Every gun is different and you can't extrapolate anything from other's work. For example, based on the results of others, my 44mag load should be giving me about 1150-1200fps. I'm getting a bit over 1300. In the same gun (Redhawk 5.5"), my "lite" load with Trail Boss and a 240gr SWC should be giving me under 900fps, I'm getting right at 1000fps.

Watching the velocity change with a given powder charge or seating change will tell you more about what your load is doing than any "seat of the pants" analysis or internet load chart.

Chris

July 16, 2009, 09:52 PM	#1
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Seating revolver bullets EXTRA loooonggg? I've been kinda thinking about all this for several days ever since there was a thread on the forum about loading up 38 specials to 357 mag levels to be fired in a 357 revolver. As I said then, I had sort of experimented with doing something similar one time. I had taken 38 special cases and gradually worked them up past 38 special +P loads. I never had any signs of excess pressure but eventually, the accuracy went down, down as I kept increasing the charge. I figured at the time that it might have been due to the extra distance the bullet had to travel before it got to the cylinder throat which is set up for 357 mag length cartridges. Anyway, it was a silly experiment because why do such a thing when I have perfectly good 357 cases to load up higher velocities? But then someone mentioned that IF you seat that bullet in the 38 special out EXTRA long, so that it's approaching the same overall cartridge length of a 357 mag cartridge, everything would be better dimension-wise. Basically load the 38 special to 1.570" instead of 1.455". Made sense I guess but I still had no reason to try it. But today I was showing my BFR to someone and I mentioned that my particular revolver was chambered for 480 Ruger only, not 475 like some of them are. The cylinder is certainly long enough to take the 475 Linebaugh cartridge but the cylinder throat starts too early in the cylinder to allow the 475 Linebaugh case to fit in. He asked why couldn't I just have each throat reamed out about 0.15" to let the long case fit in. Sure it's possible, but I have decided that the 480 Ruger cartridge has PLENTY of power and recoil for me just the way it is, thank you. But.... all this got me to thinking about the deal with 44 mag and 445 SuperMag cartridges. I have a S&W 629 and I got to measuring things this evening. Sure enough, with a standard 240 gr bullet loaded in it to a COAL of 1.575", well I STILL have about 0.20" of clearance between the tip of the bullet and the end of the cylinder. Soooo.. for anyone still bothering to read this far... my question is could I seat the 44 mag bullet all the way out to 1.775" or so for a COAL? That would give me an extra 0.200" of "extra" cartridge capacity. Not as much as a true 445 SuperMag, but it's still more than the difference in length between a 38 and a 357 or the difference between a 480 Ruger vs a 475 Linebaugh. I have no idea what it would do to pressures. Obviously, going from 38 +P to 357 generates a lot more pressure, but in going from a 480 to 475, the pressures stay about the same. I guess the sane thing would be to take a regular 44 mag load and just start gradually lengthening the seating depth right? When you got it long enough, if everything was looking good, then you could gradually start increasing charge? Why would I want to do this you ask? Hmmm.... I dunno. It's just a science experiment I guess. But surely others have already tried it before.

July 17, 2009, 08:33 AM	#5
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Are you seating them out in an attempt to get better accuracy? Or are you trying to turn your .44mag into a .445 supermag? Like Elmer Keith, are you willing to blow up a few guns along the way? __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 17, 2009, 12:11 AM	#3
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	That is true. I know Elmer Keith blew up some guns and I would assume he was looking for pressure signs as well along the way. But that's why I was asking about seating the bullets out longer. If I were to do that, then wouldn't that reduce the max pressure, while at the same time allowing more total powder for a longer burn time and increased velocity? I mean is there any harm in seating your bullets out as far as your cylinder length will allow?

July 17, 2009, 08:27 AM	#4
chriske Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Belgium Posts: 176	Just my 2 cts : Until recently I seated 158-Gr. LSWC and LRN bullets in .38 Spl cases at COL between 37,25 to 37.35 mm ( =1.466" to 1.470 "), depending on exact bullet tip profile. After a tip from a German bulletmaker, I tried seating them at COL 38.4 mm (= 1.512 "). The longer ones always proved more accurate.

July 17, 2009, 10:02 AM	#6
tmd11111 Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: San Angelo, Tx Posts: 275	Your not trying anything that hasn't been tried before. One thing though. DON'T try it with your S&W. They may be pretty, they may be smooth, but one thing they ain't is STRONG ENOUGH to handle excessive pressures. Guns such as Ruger Super Redhawks and T/C contenders can handle almost any load you can fit in the tube but that S&W cant.

July 17, 2009, 10:13 AM	#7
mtnbkr Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Manassas, Virginia Posts: 914	IIRC, Skeeter Skelton had a 38special load that he used in 357mag guns. The bullet was a special design with the crimp groove lower on the bullet so more of it stuck out of the case. He loaded them to near 357mag loads. The reason for this was to use heavy bullets in a 357mag with a short cylinder. It has been a while since I read about this, so the details might be a bit off. Edit: This is a clearer description of what he was trying to accomplish from someone who knew him... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....54&postcount=6 Chris

July 17, 2009, 11:22 AM	#9
mtnbkr Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Manassas, Virginia Posts: 914	Az, what velocities were you getting? I'm easily hitting 1300 with 300s and have pushed them faster in the past (no thanks, 300@1300 is plenty) with the bullet seated to the crimp groove (Cast Performance 300 WFNGC). Chris

July 17, 2009, 11:41 AM	#10
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	No chronometer.... just the roots of my teeth rattling. I'm not going to publish the load here, but I was seating 300gr JSP's to 1.790" OAL. Then I did the math on the available internal case capacity and ratioed that against previous case capacity of a published H110 load, and increased accordingly. DANGER: DOING THE ABOVE WILL MOST CERTAINLY INVOLVE PERSONAL RISK OR DEATH, OR DAMAGE TO YOUR FIREARM. NEITHER THEFIRINGLINE.COM NOR THIS POSTER ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DUMB ACTIONS. IN A WORD, DON'T DO IT. I ended up jumping crimp on the above load. I had about 0.015 clearance from the bullet tip to the forcing cone. Probably would work better with extremely hard cast bullets with a custom crimp groove location. FYI, the 454 Casull has a published OAL of 1.765".

July 17, 2009, 12:05 PM	#12
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	If you're gonna deliberately get a gun to play with long OAL .44 loads, the best ones on the market are the Redhawk, Super Redhawk, Anaconda and Dan Wesson. Magnum Research BFR is supposed to be pretty good in cylinder length, too. I've heard that the FA's don't play this game well for one reason or other. Can't remember why. The Super Blackhawk has a shorter cylinder than the Redhawk. Plenty strong, but still not the same potential. The cheapest good buy you could find would be a used Dan Wesson. I'm still kicking myself for passing one up for $300 at a gun show a couple years ago. Edited: H110 and Win296 are NOT good powders to use for extended length games, BTW. Unless you're willing to do some geometry calculations. Volume of a cylinder, weight/volume conversions, things like that. I'd recommend AA#7 or #9 as good powders to play with. They fill more than 1/2 the case so you get consistent ignition from the flash hole, but aren't detonation prone from having too much empty space in the case like H110 or BP.