.311 versus .308 bullet for a 30-30

wdphillips · July 14, 2009, 10:01 AM

I purchased some 165g .311 hard cast lead bullets from Hunters Supply (that was all that was available at the time) thinking I could use these in my Winchester 30-30. Tried a few under Trail Boss and then 3031. They seemed be all over the place.

Any comments on .311 versus .308 in a 30-30?

GeauxTide · July 14, 2009, 12:28 PM

You thought wrong.

a7mmnut · July 14, 2009, 01:03 PM

Unless you own a 7.62x54R or 7.65x53, you need to trade and get the correct diameter for your .30-30. Mic the barrel. How fast are these loads going?

Master Blaster · July 14, 2009, 01:07 PM

If you reload you may know someone who owns a bullet sizer....

Or a lathe

Post a trade request, on this board you may get lucky

**Unclenick** · July 14, 2009, 01:24 PM

Getting some pure lead to slug the bore and then measuring the slugs with a micrometer (not a caliper) that has ten thousandths resolution is a good start. It is pretty common for cast bullets to shoot well at 0.0010" to 0.0020" over groove diameter, but for accuracy to deteriorate as they get bigger than that.

One thing you could try is getting one of Lee's inexpensive 0.309" sizing die kits that uses your reloading press, and running the bullets through to size them down. This may or may not work. It depends on bullets to be good quality and of even hardness and without voids anywhere, otherwise the sizing down can throw them off-axis.

The other issue, if this is not a gun you've used with cast bullets before, is it is not uncommon for some barrels to have constrictions in them. Jacketed bullets don't usually mind much, but cast bullet accuracy is destroyed by them. You often find them in lever guns under sight dovetail cuts or where the barrel screws into the frame. You need to push the pure lead slugs all the way down a lightly oiled bore to feel whether you have any or not? If you do, firelapping the gun is the most common cure, though conventional hand lapping will do it, too.

lee n. field · July 14, 2009, 01:25 PM

Might be able to size them down with a Lee bullet resizing die. Lee has both a .309 and a .308 die.

Do these bullets have a gas check?

Quote:

Unless you own a 7.62x54R or 7.65x53,

.303 British as well.

How many bullets?

wdphillips · July 14, 2009, 01:48 PM

Wow! I went back to the Hunters Supply site after I posted the thread. And there it was...

"Product Description
30 Caliber, 165 grain FP .311 Lead Bullet for practice shooting, competition matches, small and medium game. Design to function in lever action rifles. Light recoil"

Is there another .30 Caliber lever action rifle?

levrluvr · July 14, 2009, 02:00 PM

Try some different powders or work up a bunch of different grain loads with those boolits until you find one that groups well. .311 is fine, and all I shoot in cast out of my 336 with MG barrel, from 85 gr up to 173. Better accuracy, little or no leading. I tried .308 and .309 and found leading and accuracy to be bad. .310 was better, .311 perfect.
Unique or 2400 for slower stuff, 3031, RE-7 for gas-checked fast.

wdphillips · July 14, 2009, 02:50 PM

This is a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 (all of my other leverguns are Marlin).

I was trying 8.5g of Trail Boss and 28g of 3031.

From what I am ascertaining the 3031 is too hot for the cast bullets (lack of gas check) and... I should probably go back to the Trail Boss and experiment with a few more powder levels.

It may be that .311 just does not work well in a Winchester 30-30?

Jim Watson · July 14, 2009, 04:43 PM

Agree with levrluvr, nothing inherently wrong with a .311" CAST bullet in a .30 caliber rifle, .30-30 included. It might not be the best, but it is worth working with. I'd back off to the starting loads of about 22 grains 3031 or 6.5 of Trail Boss. I had pretty good results with 14 grains of 4227 but there is no need accumulating a lot of odds and ends of powders until you see if the bullets can be made to work at all.

ThomasT · July 15, 2009, 04:44 PM

Did you make certain that you have ALL the copper fouling out of the barrel? Dave Scoville at Rifle Magazine says that he never mixes bullet types in his guns. Some are lead only and some and jacketed only.

You might check out www.leverguns.com for lead load data. Your 28gr load sounds way too hot. I seem to remember someone using Unique for a plain base lead load. I think it was around 8-10 grains. Check it out, don't trust my memory.

**Unclenick** · July 15, 2009, 05:47 PM

Ratshooter is right that you need to be sure it's clean. But you still want to slug the bore and measure the slug. The fact someone else's rifle shoots it well may mean his bore is different? I don't own any Winchester lever guns, but I can tell you the Marlins seem to prefer a bullet 0.002" over groove diameter to one that is only 0.001" over groove diameter. In other words, a .308 bore Marlin will shoot a .310" cast bullet best. Over or under that doesn't do as well. I don't know about your Winchester, though. It may be the same way or it may like something else. You can only measure it to see what you've got, so you can make an educated attempt at the right size.

But also check for those constrictions. Once a cast bullet passes through one, if the pressure isn't high enough to bump it back up, gas will bypass it where it was narrowed and will cut the lead, unbalancing the bullet and splattering leading all over the bore.

For powder, try IMR SR 4759.

Yes, their are other .308" lever rifles. .307 Winchester, .30-20, .303-Savage, .308 Marlin Express, just to name a few off the top of my head.

July 14, 2009, 10:01 AM	#1
wdphillips Junior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: Trinidad, Colorado Posts: 6	.311 versus .308 bullet for a 30-30 I purchased some 165g .311 hard cast lead bullets from Hunters Supply (that was all that was available at the time) thinking I could use these in my Winchester 30-30. Tried a few under Trail Boss and then 3031. They seemed be all over the place. Any comments on .311 versus .308 in a 30-30?

July 14, 2009, 01:24 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,737	Getting some pure lead to slug the bore and then measuring the slugs with a micrometer (not a caliper) that has ten thousandths resolution is a good start. It is pretty common for cast bullets to shoot well at 0.0010" to 0.0020" over groove diameter, but for accuracy to deteriorate as they get bigger than that. One thing you could try is getting one of Lee's inexpensive 0.309" sizing die kits that uses your reloading press, and running the bullets through to size them down. This may or may not work. It depends on bullets to be good quality and of even hardness and without voids anywhere, otherwise the sizing down can throw them off-axis. The other issue, if this is not a gun you've used with cast bullets before, is it is not uncommon for some barrels to have constrictions in them. Jacketed bullets don't usually mind much, but cast bullet accuracy is destroyed by them. You often find them in lever guns under sight dovetail cuts or where the barrel screws into the frame. You need to push the pure lead slugs all the way down a lightly oiled bore to feel whether you have any or not? If you do, firelapping the gun is the most common cure, though conventional hand lapping will do it, too. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; July 15, 2009 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Typo fix

July 15, 2009, 04:44 PM	#11
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,773	Did you make certain that you have ALL the copper fouling out of the barrel? Dave Scoville at Rifle Magazine says that he never mixes bullet types in his guns. Some are lead only and some and jacketed only. You might check out www.leverguns.com for lead load data. Your 28gr load sounds way too hot. I seem to remember someone using Unique for a plain base lead load. I think it was around 8-10 grains. Check it out, don't trust my memory. Last edited by ThomasT; July 15, 2009 at 08:04 PM.

July 15, 2009, 05:47 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,737	Ratshooter is right that you need to be sure it's clean. But you still want to slug the bore and measure the slug. The fact someone else's rifle shoots it well may mean his bore is different? I don't own any Winchester lever guns, but I can tell you the Marlins seem to prefer a bullet 0.002" over groove diameter to one that is only 0.001" over groove diameter. In other words, a .308 bore Marlin will shoot a .310" cast bullet best. Over or under that doesn't do as well. I don't know about your Winchester, though. It may be the same way or it may like something else. You can only measure it to see what you've got, so you can make an educated attempt at the right size. But also check for those constrictions. Once a cast bullet passes through one, if the pressure isn't high enough to bump it back up, gas will bypass it where it was narrowed and will cut the lead, unbalancing the bullet and splattering leading all over the bore. For powder, try IMR SR 4759. Yes, their are other .308" lever rifles. .307 Winchester, .30-20, .303-Savage, .308 Marlin Express, just to name a few off the top of my head. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 14, 2009, 12:28 PM	#2
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,514	You thought wrong.

July 14, 2009, 01:03 PM	#3
a7mmnut Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: NC Foothills Posts: 1,150	Unless you own a 7.62x54R or 7.65x53, you need to trade and get the correct diameter for your .30-30. Mic the barrel. How fast are these loads going?

July 14, 2009, 01:07 PM	#4
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	If you reload you may know someone who owns a bullet sizer.... Or a lathe Post a trade request, on this board you may get lucky

July 14, 2009, 01:48 PM	#7
wdphillips Junior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: Trinidad, Colorado Posts: 6	Wow! I went back to the Hunters Supply site after I posted the thread. And there it was... "Product Description 30 Caliber, 165 grain FP .311 Lead Bullet for practice shooting, competition matches, small and medium game. Design to function in lever action rifles. Light recoil" Is there another .30 Caliber lever action rifle?

July 14, 2009, 02:00 PM	#8
levrluvr Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Location: no. IL Posts: 276	Try some different powders or work up a bunch of different grain loads with those boolits until you find one that groups well. .311 is fine, and all I shoot in cast out of my 336 with MG barrel, from 85 gr up to 173. Better accuracy, little or no leading. I tried .308 and .309 and found leading and accuracy to be bad. .310 was better, .311 perfect. Unique or 2400 for slower stuff, 3031, RE-7 for gas-checked fast.

July 14, 2009, 02:50 PM	#9
wdphillips Junior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: Trinidad, Colorado Posts: 6	This is a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 (all of my other leverguns are Marlin). I was trying 8.5g of Trail Boss and 28g of 3031. From what I am ascertaining the 3031 is too hot for the cast bullets (lack of gas check) and... I should probably go back to the Trail Boss and experiment with a few more powder levels. It may be that .311 just does not work well in a Winchester 30-30?

July 14, 2009, 04:43 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,169	Agree with levrluvr, nothing inherently wrong with a .311" CAST bullet in a .30 caliber rifle, .30-30 included. It might not be the best, but it is worth working with. I'd back off to the starting loads of about 22 grains 3031 or 6.5 of Trail Boss. I had pretty good results with 14 grains of 4227 but there is no need accumulating a lot of odds and ends of powders until you see if the bullets can be made to work at all.