Looking for advanced information

[wcboggs]

I've been reloading for more years that I might want to admit so I'm certainly not a beginner. But I'm looking to see if I can take this to another level. I've heard it said that, for example, sorting head stamps can affect accuracy, the alloy of the brass can affect accuracy, slight differences in brass capacity (meaning now thick the base is; thicker shortening the capacity) can change accuracy, and there might have even been another one. When I heard this stuff it made no sense to me; in fact I thought we've got a real Snake Oil Salesman here. I do the trimming, trickling, one step at a time, kid glove stuff but I thought I might check some of this stuff out. I did come across the idea of weighing brass and bullets and I suppose paring these up somehow? And after finding that, I kind of thought maybe there is some truth to these stories I heard?

First of all does anybody know of a reloading book that goes way beyond the recipes? I'm almost afraid to buy one I cant hold since I need more recipes like a hole in the head. I want one that goes into these case/bullet weighing stuff and anything else that might sound like a fairy tale to me now.

AND... does anybody here have this kind of knowledge and how to use it? Or can either confirm or laugh with me about the Snake Oil Salesman stories?

All I load these days is handgun cartridges; 45 acp and 44 special. I have done competition shooting paper target, bowling pins and am planning on doing some tactical competition shooting withe the 45's.

[rwilson452]

well it's not snake oil. However, those things you mentioned only come into play when you loading for precision rifle shooting. The extent of it is to get cases with the same exact volume. and bullets with the same exact weight. at the range you shoot pistol at those thing will make a difference well within your margin of error. You won't see the difference. if your shooting rifle and trying to work loads that are well within 1/2 MOA those thing begin to manifest themselves. For shooting my 45ACP loads I shoot mixed cases with no worries. the only other place that it might matter is if you loading to the absolute maximum pressure for your gun. Loading to max book pressure your not likely to get in trouble. I load for accuracy and have never found a load that is as accurate at max load as a load somewhat less than max. if your loading pistol I wouldn't go to those lengths. even for bullseye. I can recall seeing a book of late but, "Precision Reloading", is a good magazine for that. I will admit a lot of it is way beyond me.

[Shane Tuttle]

PM sent...

I think one of the biggest immediate improvement on accuracy that's easy to pinpoint is experimenting with different primers...

There are other more pressing techniques involved to attain ultimate accuracy, but mere changing out types and brands of primers with your loads can make quick differences.

Just be sure to understand that you may have to start on a powder charge that's lower than your ideal original recipe. I.E., if you're close to max on a pet load, a different primer may produce different results (sometimes a dangerous one).

I know this may sound basic to you since you asserted that you're not a rookie, but I thought sometimes the simple stuff may get overlooked even by the well rounded reloader...

[wcboggs]

Thank you....

Well now that makes sense; maybe for back in the days when I had bought a 300 Win Mag with the intention of doing some mile shooting anal things like that would have made a difference. I never did it but it was fun to shoot.

Yea, my conversation with this guy was tense since he's saying this stuff knowing I shoot a 45 and I can remember back when I shot a 44 mag with split cases and could still put 6 shots in one hole. I'm telling him the brass is essentially something to hold things together and a gasket to contain the explosion, who could the alloy affect where the bullet goes?

Well it's good to know I'm not nuts and I can put this to bed even without the book.

Thanks again rwilson452

[wcboggs]

Hummm never experimented with primers; I've always just used CCI and been satisfied then adjusted charge.

Embarrassing as it is to admit, I did experience how far a primer will send a bullet down a barrel tonight. I just bought a Hornady Lock-N-Load Progressive Press and the first loads were a little mind boggling with the different actions needed by me so I was all thumbs there for a while and I found one that didn't get a powder charge. Whoops, LMAO

Oh and I was going to take a rod just in case and forgot; I hope there's no more of those.

Buy the way, I love the press. Shooting a 45 eats up ammunition like crazy; this saves lots of time and drops a surprisingly accurate charge. I wouldn't use those for competition but they are great for practice and plinking.

[joneb]

I sort my pistol brass, for reasons you have mentioned. For my rifle brass I do the same, and each lot is sorted for weight and reloaded the same number of times for a consistent hardness. If I can easily make my reloads more uniform I will, will it make a big difference maybe not, but when you add up all the little things it may. I am more than pleased when I can reload ammunition that is more accurate than anything I can buy.

[wcboggs]

Reloading is definitely better stuff than across the counter. I spent some time on a carry forum and they all say they wont carry anything but factory for reliability. Yikes, the only times I ever pulled a trigger and it didn't go bang was with factory loads. In over 30 years I've not loaded a bad cartridge till I just got a progressive loader and experienced the learning curve (which is over).

[Unclenick]

The guys have pretty much covered it, but I will have to point out that even in pistol you can see some differences. Many years ago, when the Army Department of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) was still funded, on the pistol side of it, a number of competitors reported that the military match ammo was giving them higher scores than the civilian stuff. This was a source of puzzlement for a time. It was finally concluded that the pitch brushed onto military bullets as a moisture seal was adhering the bullets in place just hard enough to improve their ignition consistency.

If you've been shooting Bullseye (matches, that is), you'll already know this, but for others reading this who do not, the match accurized 1911 is nothing to sneeze at. When I first fit up my Series '70 Goldcup back in the early 1980's, despite employing the old fashioned method of welding up and filing and scraping the original barrel's link lugs to achieve lock-up, it's first group off bags was five shots into 0.37" C-T-C at twenty-five yards. That's just under 1.5 m.o.a., and not too sloppy for accuracy loading technique to be lost in the noise.

Knowing tightly fit match guns can do that kind of shooting and keeping the military ammo experience in mind, it is reasonable to assume that anything that affects neck tension on a bullet can be reflected on the target when shooting a tight gun. It needs to be consistent. I wouldn't start painting on pitch (what a mess), but I would make sure all the brass was the same make, did not have any wild weight excursions, and had all been reloaded the same number of times so work hardening of the brass (which affects that tension) is the same for any given reloading cycle. Mind you, even a 1.5 m.o.a. pistol is not going to have its group size halved by this technique, the way a 0.5 m.o.a. rifle might. But even if it were improved just from 1.5 m.o.a. to 1.4 m.o.a, that can turn into several additional points and X's over the course of a 2700 match.

[WESHOOT2]

Wasn't that tense.....LOL

[Travis Two]

Any and all of the abc's of reloading as done by Dean Grennell only, and if available the book on Handloading by Jim Wooters and I believe Sinclair International has some detailed info for the benchrest crowd. Basically the same thing true before is still true today. the more things you can do to minmise variations in the ammo(consistency) the better your results.

[wcboggs]

WESHOOT2, drop it right now; you made an absolute fool of yourself on the other Forum and I'm not going to tolerate your taunting here too. And buy the way, you were wrong with all your ranting.

Done finished, I dont want to hear from you.:barf:

[amamnn]

There are a good many things that serious competitors can do to tighten up groups. Most involve fixing the shooter (#1 the most important failure point) then the gun (#2) and then the ammo (a very distant #3)

Jerry Miculek has some very good tips on his website http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/...y_miculek.html as does Doug Koenig http://www.dougkoenig.com/ http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_110457299 among other champion shooters. Books abound in the software and other publications sections of gun related retailers' websites.

Obviously serious competitors spend serious money on serious custom guns and serious time practicing. A teacher is a lot more valuable than most shooters seem to think. Almost everyone can benefit from having another pair of eyes to watch what you are doing wrong and right.

There are some things you can do to tune up loads and also to improve the function of factory guns. How much time and money you are willing to spend is up to you. Tuning your powder to your bullet and vice versa will shave some MOA off. Some aftermarket recoil springs, guides etc. can be changed on a factory gun to tune it to the load and the shooter. All will have some slight effect and require experimentation on your part. People shooting bowling pins or CAS at the local club may not find all this to be cost effective both in terms of money and of time.

Certainly I could be wrong. but guessing from the fact that the post was on this site in this particular category of the forum, the poster is looking for some extra advantage to be gained from special loads, techniques and the likeas so many, many people who post such questions on such sites are. I would answer that there is a great secret and it applies equally to rifle shotgun and handgun competition shooting. It will do more for any shooter young or old, experienced, or tyro. It is this: fix #1 first.

[wcboggs]

Oh I understand, I started shooting maaaany years ago taking Tri-State Champion (Bulls eye), bowling pins 5 in 5.5 seconds, can put 6 shots in one hole hand held and split a piece of paper in half with one shot, with wheel guns.

I just bought my first (and second) .45 ACP 1911 and am working on perfecting the loads so I can shoot it as well. The question was asked as a truly seasoned person seeing if there is something else I can do within reason.

That and the Snake Oil story I was told.

That first one is a nice site; good stuff.

[joneb]

I have noticed with .45 acp brass that they may not be created with a equal length, they may vary in length from .8920 to .897 for certain brand, I trim those that are over .893 down to .893" (this case length works well for my gun)I also make sure the flash holes are consistent .080 to .081" seems the norm. When working up loads for accuracy I feel better taking these steps.
For bullet seating I use my barrel as a gauge to get the max COL. and then test fire for function. Call it snake oil if you wish but I need all the help I can get

[WESHOOT2]

When someone posts on a reloading forum unsafe practices that novices can read without understanding or experience it becomes a responsibility to correct and/or clarify for safety's sake.

To state as fact that the case just holds the stuff up against the primer; to state that reloading cracked or split cases is somehow safe is utterly irresponsible.

I have been a fool; I will be one again, but unsafe reloading practices will not go uncorrected.

The fact that you came here for conformation of my 'snake oil' shows you didn't bother to check out the information published in numerous manuals, two of which I specifically mentioned, even page number.

Anyone wishing more information can check the 1911 Forum, Reloading Section, thread titled "Sorting Cases".

[wcboggs]

jibjab, got that covered, I've been reloading for over 30 years I was just checking on the information supplied by someone who obviously suffers from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and thinks that what letters are stamped in the head of a case determines the direction your bullet goes when reloading 45ACP...Oh and of greatest importance the alloy of the brass also changes the direction of travel of a reloaded 45ACP. My past experience being wheel guns; I know that in the other EXTREAM, I could reload cracked cases for a wheel gun and still put 6 shots in one hole so the Snake Oil Salesman's story made no sense to me. Upon researching these OCD assertions; head stamps matter with high power rifle cartridges when competitively shooting extremely long distances ie. mile shooting. Now that I might expect. Since I'm not shooting mile long Bulls Eye with a 45 ACP, I could care less what the head stamp says. And all of this OCD arguing and taking information out of context was for no other reason than to prove someone wrong to achieve forum superiority.

Hopefully the Moderators here will take not of this person and please make sure he doesn't follow me from thread to thread in his continued strive for superiority by being a total pest. He made quite the mess on another forum; I really hope he isn't allowed to do it here too.

I will begin ignoring this thread as the issue I asked about was answered.