Help settle a disagreement on 45ACP

[clayking]

I let another person shot my 45ACP revolver yesterday, loaded with 200 LRN over 4.8 gr. of 231. He commented that it seemed too hot and I told him that it was loaded out of the Winchester reloading book, the only thing different was the Winchester load was for 200 gr.SWC bullets and not RN. He said that that made a major difference and that I should back off. I don't see the difference, as the weight is the same. In fact, my 4.8 is a starting load..............comments........................ck

[rwilson452]

4.8 gr of 231 pushing a 200 gr any bullet is a very light load. Does your friend usually shoot a mouse gun (9mm)?

[Trapper L]

I think your friend is a wimp. There is nothing wrong with the loading data. I have found in shooting the 45 ACP that the faster powders will have more felt recoil over say a loading of AA5. While I have inherited a ton of 231, I find it dirty and have yet to get any loads that group as well as HS6 or AA5 in the 45.

[Don H]

I don't see the difference, as the weight is the same.

As a general note, even though bullet weights may be the same, different bullet shapes have different bearing surface area and substituting one for the other may either increase or decrease pressures. For example, a 250 gr. lead wadcutter will have more bearing surface than a 250 gr. lead round nose bullet and the WC would most likely develop higher pressures than the RN, all else remaining the same.

[clayking]

Actually, not a friend, but a guy who was shooting next to me asked about the gun so I let him shoot it. He was shooting a 45 auto, so I the revolver had more bite to it than the auto.

As a general note, even though bullet weights may be the same, different bullet shapes have different bearing surface area and substituting one for the other may either increase or decrease pressures

Yea, I knew that there was a slight difference but doesn't seem to be very much when viewing loads between the two. Usually very small variations in the tables that I've seen................ck




.....................ck

[James A. Mullins]

You didn't say what the overall length was. Were they seated to RN or SWC LENGTH. I use two Seco cast that are with in less than .005 of the same length as 200 gr RN. I use win 231 at either 4.3 or 4.5 with a slight taper crimp. These loads shoot clean in my guns. Another good load is IMR 700 X, a lofty powder at 3.8 or 4.2 Real clean burning. The 4.2 is an excellent bowling pin round with the SWC. If your are less than .003 / .005 You should pull them out to the correct length. Good luck.
James

[amamnn]

James makes a good point. Load data is not just powder charge. Combining a change in bearing surface with a change in the type of bearing surface and a change in the seating depth can add up to overpressure.

[Mike Irwin]

I don't care how much bearing surface you put on a 200-gr. lead bullet, 4.8 grains of WW 231 is an extremely light load any way you cut it.

[Mal H]

I doubt that it was the load/bullet/caliber at all that prompted his statement about the felt recoil. As clayking noted himself, it was probably the difference between shooting a semiauto vs shooting a revolver. He must have been expecting the same recoil as he was feeling with his semiauto. To really feel the difference in a revolver vs a semiauto, try a full house .44 Magnum in a nominal length revolver and then try the exact same loading in a Desert Eagle .44 Magnum - huge difference in felt recoil. The semiauto's action, weight, bore height, etc., all play a role in the difference.

[Mike Irwin]

"The semiauto's action, weight, bore height, etc., all play a role in the difference."

Fuh.

It's the gnomes.

[Shoney]

HS-6 and W231 are the same Hodgdon powder with different names!!!!!!!!

[snuffy]

HS-6 and W231 are the same Hodgdon powder with different names!!!!!!!!

Nope! In the first place, hodgdon doesn't "MAKE" any powder. Secondly HS-6 is the same a winchester 540,(no longer marketed). W-231 is considered the same as HP-38.

As for the recoil differences between a 1911 and a S&W revolver, that's a no-brainer. Any fixed breach weapon will generate more felt recoil than a semi-auto format. The weight difference certainly played into that as well.

[Shoney]

Sorry snuffy, you are correct, I misread my own notes, in addition I also have penciled in that:
HS-6 = W540 - http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/shotpist.php
WAP = Ramshot Silhoette
HS-7 = W541 - http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/shotpist.php
H-110 = W296
Any confirmation??????????

[Unclenick]

Correct on the Hodgdon powders. I called and asked a Hodgdon tech once, and they said the Winchester powders and theirs came out of the same plant with different labels.

As to the recoil difference, it is true that a semi-auto spring mechanism can make a load feel spongier, but it is also true that 4.8 grains of 231 is a heavier load than most bullseye shooters use in their target guns. A 185 grain JSWC over 4.3 grains of 231 is the equivalent to a factory match SWC. This load, at 1.135" OAL, produces a little over 10,000 PSI and in a 1911, produces 3.25 ft-lbs of recoil energy. 4.8 grains of 231 under a 200 grain LRN bullet seated to 1.275" OAL will also produce a little over 10,000 PSI, but the heavier bullet and longer barrel time and greater total powder energy available results in 3.90 ft-lbs of recoil energy. If your revolver's weight is close to or lighter than that of a 1911, then your target shooting acquaintance is probably correct that he feels more recoil, but that fact does not mean you are in any danger. By comparison, hardball will produce 6.00 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Let your acquaintance try hardball, then we'll see what he thinks "hot" is?

As to pressures, seating depth makes a lot of difference in the .45 ACP because its powder space is short and fat. This means small changes in how deeply the bullet base seats into the case can change chamber pressure rapidly. Taking a standard hardball military load equivalent, 230 RNFMJ, seated to 1.275" OAL over 5.0 grains of Bullseye, the peak chamber pressure is only around 16,000 PSI. If you seat the bullet a tenth of an inch deeper, to 1.1750" OAL, the availabe powder space decreases 30% and peak pressure leaps up to 24,000 PSI; well over the +P limit of 21,000 PSI. This is why it is very important that bullets in this, or any other stubby, straight wall cartridge case be firmly seated and be unable to shove back into the case when driven up the loading ramp or recoiled against in the magazine. Fortunately, the .45 ACP case has one safety feature built-in: The case web (the wall) thickness increases below the depth hardball is normally seated to. This means seating deeper fattens the cartridge by pushing that thicker brass outward, and if you go 1/10" deeper, the cartridge usually won't chamber. Just don't try to prove this the hard way, in case your chamber has extra room in it or you got an oddball brand of case not made with normal internal dimensions.

[amamnn]

Obviously the guy who claimed to feel overpressure in someone else's gun was a pontificating idiot, as 4.8 gr is a starting weight of 231 in the manuals I have. Still, guesstimating loads can become a bad habit that will bite you on the (pick a place) some day. With load data freely given out on the internet by powder makers and load manuals so cheap from the bullet makers, why take a chance?

[cheygriz]

don't care how much bearing surface you put on a 200-gr. lead bullet, 4.8 grains of WW 231 is an extremely light load any way you cut it.

__________________

Mike is spot on! It's a light load.

When you get to near maximum, bullet shape can make a considerable difference in safe pressures, but a starting load is a starting load.

[wxl]

Did not know Winchester powders came from same place as Hodgdon. Thanks for info

Hodgdon powders come from ADI in Australia

[Art Eatman]

Back when I was shooting IPSC, I used 5.8 grains of 231 with a 200-grain SWC to make Major. Not a max load...

Art

[Unclenick]

wxl,

Sorry for the confusion. I was only referring the the Winchester and Hodgdon powders mentioned in the earlier posts. These are all ball powders. Hodgdon Extreme powders, which are Hodgdon's stick powders, do come from Australia.

Nick