38/357cal wad cutters ?

drvector · March 4, 2006, 11:04 AM

Greetings All,

Brand new to re-loading and I’m just in the process of finishing up my first box of 38 cal Rainier 125 grn flat points. They seemed to be a pretty good bullet, but now I want to try my hand at some 38/357cal wad cutters. Does anyone have any recommendations? There seems to be allot of different types of variants on the wad cutter design. Rainier has their copper plated bullet, laser cast make one…etc. What do you folks prefer?

Jim Watson · March 4, 2006, 11:50 AM

I shot a bunch of Speer hollowbase wadcutters over the years. If I got back into it, I'd try the Remingtons. Light loads only, go for 700 -750 fps.

A friend has a 6" Taurus that shoots into about 3" at 50 yards with swaged wadcutters and better than that with JHP. It would not keep the plated Rainier wadcutters on a three FOOT target backer. I don't know about other guns, but if you want to try them, get a small box first.

rnovi · March 4, 2006, 02:48 PM

I really, really like Penn Bullets. They shoot like the dickens out of my GP100.

www.pennbullets.com

sne7777 · March 4, 2006, 04:49 PM

I use Prcesion 148gr flat base wad cutters, on top of 3gn.s of Bullseye. Very accurate and enexpensive.
The pistol is a Mod 10 with a 5" barrel. Plated bullets have never been as acruate as lead with this gun.

Quantrill · March 4, 2006, 05:53 PM

The Bullseye accepted load for years has been 2.7gr of Bullseye (What else?) under the 148gr wadcutter. I have always used 2.5gr of 700X with good results and cast my own wadcutters (Hensley & Gibbs #50, Lyman #358495 and Lyman #35891). Quantrill

Leftoverdj · March 4, 2006, 07:00 PM

Top accuracy will almost always come from a swaged HBWC, but you may need a machine rest to see the difference. In top level PPC competition, you will be hard pressed to find anyone using anything else. The brand differences do not seem to be large and I'm not active in competition now so do not know the favored brands.

For those of us who are less than topflight competitors and are shooting less than hand built match guns, cast WC are plenty good. My Mecquon rest shows an ocassional flier opening 50 yard groups up by half to an inch. I don't see as big a difference when shooting .38 WC in a scoped Handi.

I could not find a significant difference in moulds and slight design variations. The Lee 358-148-HEWC shot as well as any and is available in an inexpensive 6 cavity so I use that, although I have several other one and 2 cavity designs.

dogfood · March 5, 2006, 01:51 PM

I have always had good luck with Hornady's swaged 148 gr. HBWC. I use 3.2 gr. of Winchester Superlite (long since discontinued, but I still have a bunch). But there are many powders that will work well - Bullseye and 700X (as previously mentioned), W231, HP38, AA#2 ... and probably a bunch of others.

I have tried various cast WC's, but always seemed to do better with the swaged Hornady's. Never tried tried the Remington or Speer.

dogfood

deadin · March 5, 2006, 02:06 PM

The only thing I can add is don't try to load 148 WC's into surplus military brass. Most of the surplus stuff is thicker than commercial and it will bulge with the deep seated WC's.

Dean

Leftoverdj · March 5, 2006, 02:10 PM

Good point, Deadin. I've also run into bulging problems with police range pickup +P+.

WIL TERRY · March 5, 2006, 04:08 PM

The carbide sizer for the 38S&W works just fine. Run the cases over your regular expander plug to bell the cases and have at it.
I have an ammo can full of WCC71 brass and it works great with WC bullets using the system I mentioned. Incidently, that ammo can is the original one the WCC71 brass was in as loaded ammo with 130GR FMJ bullets, a real woossy load if there ever was one.
If you can't find an old RCBS 38S&W carbide die look for one of the Lyman versions which works just fine too.

deadin · March 5, 2006, 04:20 PM

I don't quite understand the .38 S&W die use. Do you mean run the loaded (bulged) rounds through it to iron out the bulge? If so, you are changing the diameter of the already seated bullet and effectively doing almost a base crimp thereby raising the pressure of the load. If not, the problem seems to be that the diameter of the bullet + 2X the thickness of the brass at the base of the bullet is greater than the ID of the cylinder and the round won't chamber. (Unless your gun has really oversized cylinder holes. Maybe a converted 38/200 WW2 M&P?)

Dean

Ignatz · March 5, 2006, 04:45 PM

2.7-3.0 of bullseye is a great starting block for the HBWC. And every thing else above is good too. I found the Remmington bulk 148gr. HBWC accurate but messy to handle. I've been using Speer's HBWC's in 32 and 38 with no complaints. If you try cast bullets like a BBWC, there fine too and even cleaner to handle. I use a swaged lead bullet because there suposed to more accurate, but I'll never notice the difference between Speer HBWC and a quality cast bullet.

Ignatz · March 5, 2006, 04:55 PM

Not to go too off topic on the bulged loaded cases. Back when I was loading 357 Maximum I was getting bulged loaded cases using Redding dies. I returned the sizing die and they changed it to 38 super so it sized it slightly looser. It looked much better after the change. Call me a sissy, but the 357MAX was too much for me. I'm a 2.8gr. of bullseye/148hbwc kind of guy.

918v · March 5, 2006, 05:05 PM

I use Remington swaged HBWC's with Clays. I tried Hornady, and Speer, but the accuracy was inferior with a whole bunch of powders.

WIL TERRY · March 6, 2006, 12:09 AM

You use a larger sizer to FL size and decap the fired brass so the ID on the brass after sizing is larger.
You can also use a 38SUPER carbide die which has an ID about the same size as a 38S&W carbide die.
All of the problems you have with WC bullets in military brass is caused by the thick casewalls of those cases. If you do not size 'em as much on the outside they will be bigger on the inside.

Leftoverdj · March 6, 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

If you do not size 'em as much on the outside they will be bigger on the inside.

If you don't size them as much on the outside, they might not fit in the chamber.

The problem ain't the sizing; it's the bulging back out when a wadcutter is flush seated in a case with thick walls.

deadin · March 6, 2006, 12:23 AM

Leftoverdj.....
Bingo! Couldn't have said it better myself. (I thought I did say that, but apparently it didn't get through.

)

Dean

Leftoverdj · March 6, 2006, 02:02 AM

Deadin, you said it most elegantly. I said the same thing most bluntly.

918v · March 6, 2006, 12:51 PM

I don't size my HBWC brass. I just insert the bullet and shoot. The lube holds it in place. Makes reloading easy.

Leftoverdj · March 6, 2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

I don't size my HBWC brass. I just insert the bullet and shoot. The lube holds it in place. Makes reloading easy.

Better you than me. One of these days one of those loose bullets is gonna work its way forward under recoil and lock the cylinder up. Aside from that, I see no advantage since you still have to deprime, and sizing and depriming are the same step.

918v · March 7, 2006, 12:19 AM

No it won't. The lube holds it in place. I've tested it. There is not enough recoil to pull the bullet.

JJB2 · March 7, 2006, 05:07 AM

7777 that's the load i use too.... 3.0 or 3.2 grs. of bullseye is good for that load....

Superhornet · March 7, 2006, 08:46 AM

In my humble opinion of course, the coke bottle effect of the bullet does not distract from the ability of the ammo to function properly. I used to shoot all the GSSF matchs with a Glock 17, and had a sizing die a few thousands less than normal. Put a coke bottle effect on the cartridge..keeps the feed ramp from driving bullet back in case........I won a little money and a Glock 17 shooting that load at Fort Benning....

azredhawk44 · March 7, 2006, 11:24 AM

I shoot redline 158gr LSWC very well with Titegroup in 38special and 357magnum. The 38's get a tiny load of Titegroup - I don't remember the exact charge, but somewhere in the vicinity of 3.2gr. Consult a manual, don't use my numbers. I can hit coke cans all day at 25-50 feet with a 3" barrel with this load.

The magnums are not super-hot by any stretch, but much more than the 38's. About 5.2gr of Titegroup? This is over hodgdon's max load for cowboy lead shooting, but well below their load for 158gr JHP XTP (6.1gr). Shoots excellently from my sp101 with no leading and no signs of pressure. Use at your own risk, working up from below their published max of 5.0gr for lead 158gr.

But the redlines don't seem to lead at all. Very hard cast.

March 4, 2006, 11:04 AM	#1
drvector Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Northeast Posts: 69	38/357cal wad cutters ? Greetings All, Brand new to re-loading and I’m just in the process of finishing up my first box of 38 cal Rainier 125 grn flat points. They seemed to be a pretty good bullet, but now I want to try my hand at some 38/357cal wad cutters. Does anyone have any recommendations? There seems to be allot of different types of variants on the wad cutter design. Rainier has their copper plated bullet, laser cast make one…etc. What do you folks prefer?

March 5, 2006, 04:08 PM	#10
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	All You Need To Load That 38 Wcc And +p+ Brass Is A Bigger Sizing Die. The carbide sizer for the 38S&W works just fine. Run the cases over your regular expander plug to bell the cases and have at it. I have an ammo can full of WCC71 brass and it works great with WC bullets using the system I mentioned. Incidently, that ammo can is the original one the WCC71 brass was in as loaded ammo with 130GR FMJ bullets, a real woossy load if there ever was one. If you can't find an old RCBS 38S&W carbide die look for one of the Lyman versions which works just fine too.

March 6, 2006, 12:09 AM	#15
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	No, You Do Not Resize The Loaded Rounds !!!! You use a larger sizer to FL size and decap the fired brass so the ID on the brass after sizing is larger. You can also use a 38SUPER carbide die which has an ID about the same size as a 38S&W carbide die. All of the problems you have with WC bullets in military brass is caused by the thick casewalls of those cases. If you do not size 'em as much on the outside they will be bigger on the inside.

March 4, 2006, 11:50 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,169	I shot a bunch of Speer hollowbase wadcutters over the years. If I got back into it, I'd try the Remingtons. Light loads only, go for 700 -750 fps. A friend has a 6" Taurus that shoots into about 3" at 50 yards with swaged wadcutters and better than that with JHP. It would not keep the plated Rainier wadcutters on a three FOOT target backer. I don't know about other guns, but if you want to try them, get a small box first.

March 4, 2006, 02:48 PM	#3
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	I really, really like Penn Bullets. They shoot like the dickens out of my GP100. www.pennbullets.com

March 4, 2006, 04:49 PM	#4
sne7777 Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Posts: 90	I use Prcesion 148gr flat base wad cutters, on top of 3gn.s of Bullseye. Very accurate and enexpensive. The pistol is a Mod 10 with a 5" barrel. Plated bullets have never been as acruate as lead with this gun.

March 4, 2006, 05:53 PM	#5
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	The Bullseye accepted load for years has been 2.7gr of Bullseye (What else?) under the 148gr wadcutter. I have always used 2.5gr of 700X with good results and cast my own wadcutters (Hensley & Gibbs #50, Lyman #358495 and Lyman #35891). Quantrill

March 4, 2006, 07:00 PM	#6
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Top accuracy will almost always come from a swaged HBWC, but you may need a machine rest to see the difference. In top level PPC competition, you will be hard pressed to find anyone using anything else. The brand differences do not seem to be large and I'm not active in competition now so do not know the favored brands. For those of us who are less than topflight competitors and are shooting less than hand built match guns, cast WC are plenty good. My Mecquon rest shows an ocassional flier opening 50 yard groups up by half to an inch. I don't see as big a difference when shooting .38 WC in a scoped Handi. I could not find a significant difference in moulds and slight design variations. The Lee 358-148-HEWC shot as well as any and is available in an inexpensive 6 cavity so I use that, although I have several other one and 2 cavity designs.

March 5, 2006, 01:51 PM	#7
dogfood Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Southwestern OH Posts: 239	I have always had good luck with Hornady's swaged 148 gr. HBWC. I use 3.2 gr. of Winchester Superlite (long since discontinued, but I still have a bunch). But there are many powders that will work well - Bullseye and 700X (as previously mentioned), W231, HP38, AA#2 ... and probably a bunch of others. I have tried various cast WC's, but always seemed to do better with the swaged Hornady's. Never tried tried the Remington or Speer. dogfood

March 5, 2006, 02:06 PM	#8
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	The only thing I can add is don't try to load 148 WC's into surplus military brass. Most of the surplus stuff is thicker than commercial and it will bulge with the deep seated WC's. Dean

March 5, 2006, 02:10 PM	#9
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Good point, Deadin. I've also run into bulging problems with police range pickup +P+.

March 5, 2006, 04:20 PM	#11
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	I don't quite understand the .38 S&W die use. Do you mean run the loaded (bulged) rounds through it to iron out the bulge? If so, you are changing the diameter of the already seated bullet and effectively doing almost a base crimp thereby raising the pressure of the load. If not, the problem seems to be that the diameter of the bullet + 2X the thickness of the brass at the base of the bullet is greater than the ID of the cylinder and the round won't chamber. (Unless your gun has really oversized cylinder holes. Maybe a converted 38/200 WW2 M&P?) Dean

March 5, 2006, 04:45 PM	#12
Ignatz Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Posts: 72	2.7-3.0 of bullseye is a great starting block for the HBWC. And every thing else above is good too. I found the Remmington bulk 148gr. HBWC accurate but messy to handle. I've been using Speer's HBWC's in 32 and 38 with no complaints. If you try cast bullets like a BBWC, there fine too and even cleaner to handle. I use a swaged lead bullet because there suposed to more accurate, but I'll never notice the difference between Speer HBWC and a quality cast bullet.

March 5, 2006, 04:55 PM	#13
Ignatz Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Posts: 72	Not to go too off topic on the bulged loaded cases. Back when I was loading 357 Maximum I was getting bulged loaded cases using Redding dies. I returned the sizing die and they changed it to 38 super so it sized it slightly looser. It looked much better after the change. Call me a sissy, but the 357MAX was too much for me. I'm a 2.8gr. of bullseye/148hbwc kind of guy.

March 5, 2006, 05:05 PM	#14
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	I use Remington swaged HBWC's with Clays. I tried Hornady, and Speer, but the accuracy was inferior with a whole bunch of powders.

March 6, 2006, 12:23 AM	#17
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	Leftoverdj..... Bingo! Couldn't have said it better myself. (I thought I did say that, but apparently it didn't get through. ) Dean

March 6, 2006, 02:02 AM	#18
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Deadin, you said it most elegantly. I said the same thing most bluntly.

March 6, 2006, 12:51 PM	#19
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	I don't size my HBWC brass. I just insert the bullet and shoot. The lube holds it in place. Makes reloading easy.

March 7, 2006, 12:19 AM	#21
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	No it won't. The lube holds it in place. I've tested it. There is not enough recoil to pull the bullet.

March 7, 2006, 05:07 AM	#22
JJB2 Junior member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 558	7777 that's the load i use too.... 3.0 or 3.2 grs. of bullseye is good for that load....

March 7, 2006, 08:46 AM	#23
Superhornet Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: florida Posts: 292	In my humble opinion of course, the coke bottle effect of the bullet does not distract from the ability of the ammo to function properly. I used to shoot all the GSSF matchs with a Glock 17, and had a sizing die a few thousands less than normal. Put a coke bottle effect on the cartridge..keeps the feed ramp from driving bullet back in case........I won a little money and a Glock 17 shooting that load at Fort Benning....

March 7, 2006, 11:24 AM	#24
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I shoot redline 158gr LSWC very well with Titegroup in 38special and 357magnum. The 38's get a tiny load of Titegroup - I don't remember the exact charge, but somewhere in the vicinity of 3.2gr. Consult a manual, don't use my numbers. I can hit coke cans all day at 25-50 feet with a 3" barrel with this load. The magnums are not super-hot by any stretch, but much more than the 38's. About 5.2gr of Titegroup? This is over hodgdon's max load for cowboy lead shooting, but well below their load for 158gr JHP XTP (6.1gr). Shoots excellently from my sp101 with no leading and no signs of pressure. Use at your own risk, working up from below their published max of 5.0gr for lead 158gr. But the redlines don't seem to lead at all. Very hard cast.