The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 26, 2005, 10:33 PM   #51
Senior Member
Join Date: September 10, 2005
Location: Sactown
Posts: 227
If you are placing your fate in someones superficial perception of you, or your guns, you are in big trouble. Know the law and stay within its boundaries.
Wow. I understand the logic and the emotion behind the above post but if you are making such statements you have obviously not been informed of or in touch with how things are in the real world. Perception is the key to many situations in life, it may be sad but it is true. And the way people work may not measure up to your ideal vision of what is the law and justice but in the real world people are constantly making decisions on the basis of perception. Which is why when there is a person with serious issues who gets a hold of a gun and does evil things all of us as gun owners and RKBA advocates shudder becasue of how we will be perceived.

Perception is also the reason that many anti-gunners want to paint all gun owners as slightly crazed or unbalanced or a felony waiting to happen. For example one of reasons that we have to go through extensive background checks in some states is becasue they perceive that this will stop the aquisition of guns by criminals. Either way one should care how LEO perceives the defensive situation becasue his perception will be what he testifies in court for or against, as for me i would rather have them with me than against me. Also we live in a society and benefit greatly from that and there are rules for living in a society, having guns motivates most people to behave themselves in society and whether you like it or not other people in society have perceptions. I am not saying what gun you should use or how you should use it when protecting you and yours, but, be aware of the damage to the perception of gun owners when you carelessly spout off.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Jericho9mm is offline  
Old October 27, 2005, 10:20 AM   #52
Senior Member
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Behind enemy lines
Posts: 1,309
On behalf of your wife and children...

If you first hear a noise upstairs what will you do? Take your chosen firearm upstairs and confront Mr. Yuk in the doorway to the kids room, putting them directly in the line of fire? And at the same time leaving your wife unprotected down stairs? If you hear the noise downstairs, will you walk out of the room to investigate and leave your wife alone in the bedroom or do you stay in the room and leave your kids unprotected? And about the headshot in a hostage situation, with your own family member as a hostage. With all due respect sir if you had the skill and capability to do that you would not be posting a thread on here asking a bunch of people you do not know what you should use. If you are intent on having a weapon or in your case it should be weapons so your wife can help. Learn how to shoot and when to shoot to the point you can decide for yourself what would be best in your house. I don't care for the "modern techniques" taught by every one and his brother, they will get you killed and I say that from experience. But learn something. In the mean time get an alarm system and a nice loud dog.
Rimrod is offline  
Old October 27, 2005, 01:18 PM   #53
too many choices!?
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 371
AR-15 Hands Down...

Don't forget your backstop though...This should go for WHATEVER HOME DEFENSE WEAPON YOU CHOOSE ...

As long as your home defense AR does not have a 20" barrel(mine has a 14 1/2" barrel), and you use proper ammo selection for your home's construction/location, overpenetration is a secondary concern. Hitting the B/G with all rounds fired is your first ! I serioulsy doubt that an AR-15 bullet that enters and exits a B/G, will be an overpenetration issue to anyone outside the house,remembering that at HD ranges all AR bullets should tumble( if not fragment)...

So how about we don't shoot unless we can hit what we aim at, and overpenetration issues become moot....I use a Scorpion(LED) light, and a red dot, for my home defense carbine, all mounted forward, to help dampen muzzle jump(the AK muzzle brake helps to). The results are a carbine that can be set up for anything from a night time/defensive carbine(red dot and light and no recoil/muzzle climb), to a 100 yds bench gun/varminter(remove dot/light and add 3-9x scope), or just a light fast day time carbine with iron sights only(add removable carry handle, remove everthing else)...All transformations can be done in less than a minute or two. Aren't Rails great!!!

PS-A short barrel will generate less velocity, so the bullet(s) will travel less and have less energy to do secondary damage outside it's intended target area. Especially after hitting a wall or two, or hopefully the B/G...

Too Many Choices!?(and the AR-15 should definitely be one of them)...
too many choices!? is offline  
Old October 29, 2005, 07:46 PM   #54
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2004
Posts: 2,745
I think a pistol-chambered carbine, anywhere from 9mm to .44 Magnum is a fine choice. It has enough power for terminal effect, but can be fired much more accurately than a handgun, and will have milder report and recoil than a 12 gauge or a deer rifle. The two factors always stressed are placement and followup shots, and a light carbine is a great performer in both those areas. One advantage of a handgun if you have children though is that they are more easily safed than a long gun.
“Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.”
Niels Bohr
CarbineCaleb is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 09:59 AM   #55
Senior Member
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,294
+1 to CC here.

9mm carbine in the form of a CX4 Storm Beretta is my favorite choice as an alternative to my 12 GA pump. It is deadly accurate, low recoil, and I know exactly where all my shots are going. Plus with the rail system I can attach lasers and flashlights to make HD easier.
Duxman is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 11:06 AM   #56
Senior Member
Join Date: October 7, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 110

I have done just that with my Storm, RedDot sight and forward lighting under the barrel. I also keep a mag loaded with 135grn low velocity hydroshocks. Hopefully that will do it. The Storm is accurate and more so with the RedDot, as well as balanced and due to its size very manuverable. I would grab the Storm well before a shotgun.
StormTrooper is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 11:28 AM   #57
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,224
What ever you choose, please take a home clearing course with that weapon or something of the same size.

A few months ago I took a private class about clearing homes with a shotgun that a friend of mine was holding, he is in ERT (Ermergency response team) for the Tampa PD.

Clearing a house with a shotgun is tricky, especially when clearing around corners, you dont want to have the gun exposed because you dont want someone grabbing it from your blindsides, also you dont want to have it up or down, because someone can run to you and grab it, rendering the gun useless.

The best (in my opinion) home clearing class I took was with a knife. They (a good instructor) teach you how to use your weapon as if it was part of your body, really good stuff.

Some of you might remember my thread about going into condition black, well a good instructor teaches you how to try to avoid that, what i was told is that when i feel myself going into condition black, to just get down behind something using a wall or somehting else as support for my body and cover myself while breathing deeply until i regain control of my body.
BerettaCougar is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 12:22 PM   #58
too many choices!?
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 371

I repectfully disagree...My AR15pistol(PDW), has less felt recoil than a 9mm carbine, has both advantages of the carbine and pistol(only ~24" long), can be shot like a hand gun(icoseles position, even with the heavy barrel + 30 rounder), and can be shot like an AOW(with a hand on the mag well), or like a carbine with shoulder to buffer tube(but can be painfull if I don't get under the coller bone into that ,"pocket", of my upper pec muscle and shoulder)...

So go out and buy/build your own PDW AR-15 Pistol!! With a 10 1/2" H-bar, it really sucks up recoil and muzzle jump.

I guess I cheated while answering the posted question, since I use a .223 carbine(Bushie M4), as well as a .223 caliber pistol/carbine(PDW), , and two handguns(oh and don't forget the Ak hiding behind my underwear ...

My AR-pistol is the Bushmaster M4's side kick, and a soon as I figure out how to conceal it, it will become my,"Concealed Carry For Winter", bump in the night duty weapon, plus my car gun; replacing the Glock .40(which I will get to concealed carry now that it's winter, Hooray)...I am thinking,"Tactical Scabard", either," Ninja-style" , on the back, or ,"Samurai-style", weak side cross draw for the PDW, with Glock 23 strong side at about 4 O'clock....Just need a Trench Coat now(lol), and I am ready for any Texas-style SHTF. Idiot with an AK , I can grab the PDW outta the car...More mundane threat(street thug), yet still life threatening, run with what I got on me, the Glock 23 in .40 or the Millinium Taurus .45...

PS-I sleep with my PDW-AR-Pistol or M4(locked loaded,safety on, next to or in bed always) , MY Glock 23(holstered in a Fobus w 15+1 rounder) on me or in a drawer(loaded), or my Taurus(off safe, chambered, and under the pillow with 11 rounds).

(isn't having)Too Many Choices!?(great!)
too many choices!? is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 12:30 PM   #59
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,203
I'm glad I found this post. There are a lot of good points being made, even if some of them are conflicting. I never thought about a hostage situation.

I am still partial to my .45 rather than my shotty due to manuverability. I don't have any kiddies yet so I don't have to worry about others outside of my room. If I was barricading myself in, I would go with the shotty. If I was clearing the house (I know many think this equals suicide) I would use the .45. I think it is crazy to call the cavalry everytime you hear a bump in the night. My dog will usually confirm if there is an intruder or not by either barking her head off or dragging in their badly mauled cadaver.

As for my AR-15, I gave the HBAR with the 20" barrel. I have a full stock so I face the same problem as the 870 for manuverability. I know any of the guns fired without hearing protection will be loud, but the .223 really makes a lot of noise.

Even though the AR is probably my 3rd or 4th choice, I do keep it loaded with the Hornady TAPs which were previously mentioned. They are loaded with V-Max varmit rounds which have a plastic ballistic tip covering a nasty hollow point. I haven't shot anyone with these (or anything else thank God) but I imagine that they make a nasty wound. The V-Max offer less penetration but should shread whatever it does come in contact with.

I hope none of us ever end up in this kind of situation. As already stated, work harder at keeping the bad guys out and you won't have to worry about these kinds of scenarios as much.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 12:30 PM   #60
too many choices!?
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 371
OH yeah, I22,

I ,'Open Carry', at home, as their is no law requiring concealed carry in the house...

PS- I have no kids, and no desire to have someone constantly draining my gun fund. So no,"Girlfriend", in the traditional sense of the word either. I do have associates, and they know my guns come first ...
too many choices!? is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 01:50 PM   #61
Junior member
Join Date: August 9, 2005
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 2,228
I'm not going to be clearing my house at night. If I find evidence of an intruder, I fall back into the 911 mode, and will wait until either the intruder openly approaches, or the LEOs arrive. In that case, a 12 ga. will be the primary arm. My wife has her SA 1911A1 to back me up.

The house is alarmed, with battery back-up, and wireless hook-up to the phone system in the street. LEO response is under 5 minutes.

As for answering the door. We have a wide angle peep, a well-lit approach, and no vegetation to hide anyone in. There is a pistol in easy reach to pick-up prior to even approaching the door. Our neighbors on both sides also utilize motion sensor floods, as do we. One of the neighbors is a retired couple, and the other is running a business from their home.

I do not routinely arm myself to put out the trash, and wouldn't live in a neighborhood where that was necessary. The neighbors here are all armed, as well.

Depending upon construction, distance, and your layout, a carbine may be a viable arm. Pistol or rifle caliber will also be very dependent upon those circumstances, and the presence of others in close proximity, such as children or other residents in different areas of the habitat.

Hardening your residence will go a long ways towards alleviating the necessity of your choices.
JR47 is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 02:44 PM   #62
Hunter Rose
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2001
Location: 30 miles from Everywhere, right in the middle of Nowhere...
Posts: 718
the "bump in the night" guns for us are the Storm and 92. The 92 is on my side of the bed, in my hand while I retrieve the Storm from it's home in our bedroom. Then the 92 is given to Spoon...

With a decent light slung under the barrel, and 45 rds on demand, and plenty of accuracy within household distances, the Storm (to me) is the perfect choice...
Hunter Rose is offline  
Old October 30, 2005, 03:18 PM   #63
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2004
Location: people's republic of California
Posts: 386
A lever action rifle in the 38/357 caliber can be used in a HD situation. It is a small, fast handling gun. Can be loaded with 38 spl. ammo which would cut down on it's penetration.

Loaded with the 357 it comes in as an anemic 30-30. The 357 caliber really benefits from the longer barrel...

Since you are using a handgun caliber, it is beneficial to have a handgun chambered in the same caliber.

I have a mod.66 tarus while wify-poo has a Rossi Mod 92 (carbine) both are in the 357 so there is no problem with ammo...can toss a speed loader back and forth and either gun can function.

I should also mention that the 38/357 in the rifle has no recoil!
claude783 is offline  
Old October 31, 2005, 02:22 PM   #64
Senior Member
Join Date: October 13, 1998
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 299
.223 vs Shotgun for HD

First I'll state the truth before quibbling about the less important facts. Both weapons are adequate for home defense. However, after using both, and relying on a Moss 590A1 with SureFire foreend for years, I've switched to what I think is the best home defense weapon made: a Colt M4, loaded with a 55 gr. 5.56 mm NATO M193 cartridge. The only weapon I think is even close is the SIG 552 (I believe: 8-10" barrel), smaller than the M4, comes with Picatinny rails for mounting lights, sights, and a completely folding stock makes it more compact than the M4, but I think that's a minor difference for home defense. Anyway, it's still illegal for civillians to buy, while if you look hard you can know get your hands on a real Colt M4 that is identical to the type our US Armed Special Forces CQB house to house search teams use, our SWAT teams use. All these teams are quickly abandoning the MP-5 because the M4 has far better terminal ballistics than the 9mm MP-5, especially against BG's with body armor. M4 still stops the BG, MP-5 bounces off body armor. And don't think BG's don't use body armor. Here in Phoenix a couple years ago, a couple BGs with body armor posing as Bounty Hunters invaded a house with an innocent man and his wife. The home owner and his wife were armed with pistols; their rounds bounced off. The BG Bounty Hunters killed the couple; they were looking for drugs and cash, but were at the wrong address. So, I digress, but give you a couple reasons to consider a M4 or a Bushmaster M4 type rifle. With a light and an Aimpoint red dot sight, nothing comes close. . . . . . oh yeah I did say that a shotgun would get the job done if mounted with a light. . . . .
"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stuart Mill
ddelange is offline  
Old October 31, 2005, 03:31 PM   #65
Senior Member
Join Date: December 21, 2000
Posts: 4,142
I like the ideas of the M1 Carbine with the 110 gr. soft points.

I thought about an SKS, but overpenetration would be an issue.
Pilot is offline  
Old October 31, 2005, 06:58 PM   #66
Senior Member
Join Date: August 24, 2005
Location: Wake Forest, North Carolina
Posts: 188
HD Weapon

A carbine would be a great HD weapon. I have many of the firearms mentioned through the numerous treads from my M-1 Carbine, AR-15 Carbine, and Mossberg 500 Shotgun. In a situation that would involve an unwanted intruder I would probably go with my AR-15. Just because I have two 40 round mags joined with a Samco Mag clinch right next to my bed. A Shotgun is a great weapon but can be a little messy but will definitely do the job. My M-1 Carbine I actually bought for my wife just in case I was out of town and she needed a good HD rifle. I really recommend the M-1 Carbine for a woman because of the simplicity of loading, firing, and the lightweight.
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."-General George S. Patton
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buyone.'' Luke 22:36
BloodyBucket03 is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.19414 seconds with 9 queries