Forward assist yes or no ? - Page 2

**44 AMP** · November 25, 2021, 05:08 AM

The original AR-15 and M16 did not have forward assists. The forward assist didn't come along until the M16A1, and was ONE of the attempted cures for the problems the M16 was having due to the Army's misfeasance (or malfeasance, depending on your point of view).

(and if you don't know what the Army did to screw up the M16, do some research, or PM me if you want my rant about it.)

The forward assist only partially makes up for the fact that the AR design lacks a charging handle that works both ways. It fails to completely remedy that situation because instead of one handle that works both ways you now have two, each one only working one way.

Also note that none of the AR10 class rifles have forward assists. I will qualify that statement slightly, I don't know if there is someone making an AR 10 class rifle with a forward assist today, but for decades they never had one.

The only other rifle I'm aware of that has a one way handle is the HK designs, and they don't have forward assists. Nor does the M1 Garand, M14, M1 carbine, FAL or any of the Soviet designs.

My personal experience with forward assists has always been crappy. In basic I had an older M16A1 with one of the "teardrop" FA buttons and that sumbitch snagged on EVERYTHING. Later on I had a newer one with the round button, and that was much better, solving the snagging problem. Never had to use it, so I won't say it worked well.

In the 80s I had an AR with the round button assist and on those few occasions when I had a bad round, using the FA always created a serious jam. So serious you couldn't clear the chamber using the charging handle. The rifle had to be disassembled and the bolt carrier tapped rearward until the round came loose from being stuck in the chamber.

This happened more than once with some poorly sized reloads. Shooting that same ammo (including those stuck rounds) from my mini 14 where a couple of rounds did not fully go into battery, and a rap on the back of the op rod handle locked the gun shut so it could be fired. The rest of the batch that jammed in the AR ran through my mini like a sewing machine....

SO, my experience is, that using the FA is a flip the coin thing. IF it closes the action fully, you're good to go, but IF NOT, you've got a jam you can't easily or quickly clear, so I don't use them anymore.

Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

eflyguy · November 25, 2021, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

In BCT, or AIT

The rifles are constantly cleaned and at no time are they fired with live ammunition while dirty.

BCT. Don't think there was any shooting at AIT (they're 68W)..

Again, I'm not anti-FA, I just never had a need for it and apparently neither did they.

HWS · November 25, 2021, 03:19 PM

I have never used it even once. But carrying through with Kyle's account of things, it saved his live in the closest of close quarter combat. Gotta give it credit where credit is due.

101combatvet · November 25, 2021, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

That Huber guy had a lot of gall to not want to get blasted at point blank range--very inconsiderate of him. That Tucker Carlson is a POS AFAIC.

Why?

101combatvet · November 25, 2021, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

I just don’t think that I’d ever be in a life or limb situation with an AR.
I won’t be carrying one around as a defensive weapon. If I ever find myself needing one of my ARs to defend myself or property, things would have gotten really bad.

I have had a riot on my street that approached my home, I stayed inside and avoided conflict... then made the decision not long after to return to Texas lol.
Basically I avoid situations as much as possible that I’d need a gun... I carry a pistol wherever I’m allowed, however.

If I planned on entering a scenario with an AR15, I might change my opinion of the forward assist.
In the Kyle R. Situation, his sling played a bigger role and was what allowed him to retain the weapon.

So you'd use a pistol over an AR?

101combatvet · November 25, 2021, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal god

Anyone see this , he doesn't use the correct term/wording but ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnw0R6lhFm0

So what do all of you that said the forward assist is useless say now ?

Glad all mine have them . Not sure how many followed the trial or have seen the video/photos . When Mr Hubert tries to take Kyles gun I'm thinking maybe some clothing or something got hung up and slowed the BCG from fully closing.

Kyle probably eased the bolt forward rather than allowing the bolt to go forward with the bolt release. Under certain circumstances you might want the option of quietly easing the bolt forward.

rickyrick · November 25, 2021, 03:41 PM

Quote:

So you'd use a pistol over an AR?

Everything isn’t a socom operation.

I would never have an AR at hand.
They’d be in the closet or gun cabinet.
Pistol is always on my belt.

Why would I count on using a weapon that isn’t close at hand?
I’m not going to a Walmart with a rifle strapped to my chest but I will have a pistol on my side.
When I used to do ranch work, I’d carry a rifle with me, but that was almost exclusively a Mini14.
My ARs are all toys, recreational items. The Mini14 was my working gun, that has taken dozens of coyotes, 100s of feral pigs and a few oddball nuisance animals.
I’ve assembled some purpose built ARs for varmints and such, just keep grabbing the Mini14 instead.
Again, the AR isn’t my choice for self defense. I carry pistols, not rifles.
Foward assist is a vestigial appendage

101combatvet · November 25, 2021, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

Everything isn’t a socom operation.

Oh, I feel better knowing that.

Metal god · November 25, 2021, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Kyle probably eased the bolt forward rather than allowing the bolt to go forward with the bolt release. Under certain circumstances you might want the option of quietly easing the bolt forward.

I don't think so , he had just fired the weapon 1.5sec before using the forward assist . then fired his weapon about 1.5sec after . Not a whole lot of time to ease the bolt down and tap it home .

See video linked in post #3 at about 2min

Rob228 · November 25, 2021, 06:20 PM

Both of mine have forward assists, but the only time I use them is for peace of mind if I do a brass check (let the bolt go forward then hit the FA with my palm).

I can't think of a single malfunction drill that includes the forward assist.

Rob228 · November 25, 2021, 06:21 PM

Forgot to say,

I don't mind having it at all. I use it, and something looks odd to me on an AR without one.

101combatvet · November 25, 2021, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal god

I don't think so , he had just fired the weapon 1.5sec before using the forward assist . then fired his weapon about 1.5sec after . Not a whole lot of time to ease the bolt down and tap it home .

See video linked in post #3 at about 2min

Good point! I should have watched the video; ouch.

SF Mike · November 25, 2021, 09:01 PM

Even though it is not a comforting feeling being issued a piece with a Fwd Assist, I found it a necessary evil in the field. Along with the dust flap.
We spent a lot of time in a swampy environment where the piece sometimes got submerged in dirty water.
As mentioned in another forum, it was a good idea to open the action a bit and "drain" the bore.
Bits of floating detritus also got into the action and magazines as well.
Sometimes we would empty and disassemble the mags and clean out the stuff.

kymasabe · November 25, 2021, 10:01 PM

Eh, I still don't like them. I ordered an Aero slick side upper without the forward assist (because I can't get my go-to Anderson one anymore), and am having to return the Aero for the 2nd time. I can't get charging handles to fit in them. Anderson, Bravo, Geissele, and Strike Ind. won't fit, I discovered the new Rise Armament handle will fit my Aero though. It's going back. Again. And will probably buy a standard stripped upper instead, haven't had charging handle fitment problems with that model.
FYI...my cheapy Bear Creek Arsenal side charging upper doesn't have a forward assist, doesn't need it with a side charger...

Road_Clam · December 9, 2021, 12:20 PM

Civilian target usage for me only. Not once have i ever needed FA. The few times i did think i needed it the issue was a improperly sized reloads with some type of neck or shoulder issue and working the FA button did nothing to help gain complete battery.

stagpanther · December 9, 2021, 02:30 PM

It may have happened some time in history--like the odds of winning a 100 million+ dollar Powerball jackpot--but if the return of the carrier's momentum doesn't successfully get a cartridge into battery, my experience has always been an FA will do nothing but make a jam worse.

RickB · December 9, 2021, 04:20 PM

I'm definitely in the camp of, "if it doesn't want to go into the chamber, trying to cram it in with forward assist makes less sense than ejecting the known bad round".
That said, the manual of arms for loading some guns includes giving a forward shove on the op rod handle to ensure the round is seated; where do you draw the line between ensuring a good round is seated, and not trying to force a defective round home?
When Eugene Stoner was approached about a forward assist for the M16, he essentially refused to take part.

Willie Lowman · December 10, 2021, 05:57 PM

In 21 years I have used the forward assist exactly 3 times. Each time was when I accidentally put 31 rounds into the mag and not 30. The spring pressure didn't allow for the BCG to go all the way home. A push of the forward assist and things were where they were supposed to be.

This was after looking into the ejection port and seeing what the problem was.

HiBC · December 10, 2021, 07:57 PM

I cant say I'm all that excited to have an FA, but I don't object to having one.
There was an original Colt,SN in the 3xxx range in the mid 1960's in the house. Those had no FA
I've been around them owned and shot them ever since.

I do not recall a FA ever fixing a problem,but I dont recall an FA causing one.

Armalite AR-10's and DPMS LR308s seem to get by fine without.

IMO,its not a deal breaker either way. I don't get emotional over them. There is nothing about having an FA that requires me to be stupid about using it.

Range toys and PD guns,etc, What difference does it make?

Realistically? I'm 69 years old. Not likely I'll be doing any swamp combat operations.
As far as those troops who will be using the weapon in combat.its best I just STFU and let them figure it out.

Where it MIGHT make a difference is the package deal, A slickside may lack a dustcover. No dustcover could be a dealbreaker.

Here is another potential dealbreaker. I do 7075 Aluminum forging receivers,

Period. Some of the slickside variants are made from 6061 alloy extrusions.

Definitely inferior material and a "Nope" from me. But its the 6061,and lack of dustcover, not the FA I reject them for.

pete2 · December 10, 2021, 08:00 PM

I don't use mine for hunting, not a hunting rifle. Again, for civilian use, I see no need.

Joe-ker · December 10, 2021, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

I cant say I'm all that excited to have an FA, but I don't object to having one.
There was an original Colt,SN in the 3xxx range in the mid 1960's in the house. Those had no FA
I've been around them owned and shot them ever since.

I do not recall a FA ever fixing a problem,but I dont recall an FA causing one.

Armalite AR-10's and DPMS LR308s seem to get by fine without.

IMO,its not a deal breaker either way. I don't get emotional over them. There is nothing about having an FA that requires me to be stupid about using it.

Range toys and PD guns,etc, What difference does it make?

Realistically? I'm 69 years old. Not likely I'll be doing any swamp combat operations.
As far as those troops who will be using the weapon in combat.its best I just STFU and let them figure it out.

Where it MIGHT make a difference is the package deal, A slickside may lack a dustcover. No dustcover could be a dealbreaker.

Here is another potential dealbreaker. I do 7075 Aluminum forging receivers,

Period. Some of the slickside variants are made from 6061 alloy extrusions.

Definitely inferior material and a "Nope" from me. But its the 6061,and lack of dustcover, not the FA I reject them for.

I took my dust cover off

rickyrick · December 11, 2021, 12:14 AM

I’ve “used” the forward assist just to see if it works. I deliberately made the bolt not close fully on a round. I’ve done it more than once on several rifles.
Sometimes it takes more than one push.
To me it seems easier and more intuitive to just yank the charging handle and shuck the round.
I think riding the bolt is a bad practice, but just my opinion. I feel that semiautos should be loaded and chambered with the full force of the action itself. The inertia of the moving components is the best way to seat the cartridge...

I think an AR is a fine hunting gun if used within its capabilities for caliber. You don’t have to fill a magazine just because you can.

shafter · December 16, 2021, 08:43 PM

After doing a press check it can be handy to have the forward assist to put it back into battery.

kilotanker22 · December 16, 2021, 11:43 PM

A forward assist can be a life saver. Sometimes it is faster to smack the assist to put the bolt into battery in the heat of the moment. There is a reason it is there. Although, proper maintenance and ammunition will mitigate the possible need for the forward assist.

Most of us do not get into firefights, but there was a time when I had to survive through a few. When you are outside the wire for extended periods of time in a hostile environment and your weapon might be a little dirty or have some built up carbon inside the bolt carrier, a forward assist may be the difference between getting a shot off or not. This is not a likely situation for most people to be in, but there is a reason the platform was designed with one, I would choose to have one over not.

rickyrick · December 17, 2021, 12:54 AM

I’m a civilian now... rifle doesn’t go into battery, I’m not going to try anything until I investigate the cause.

I get that it has a tactical purpose, but as a civilian the AR is impractical as a self defense weapon unless you walk around with one strapped to your body. It is highly unlikely that I will find myself doing that. I carry a pistol everywhere instead.

November 25, 2021, 05:08 AM	#26
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,486	The original AR-15 and M16 did not have forward assists. The forward assist didn't come along until the M16A1, and was ONE of the attempted cures for the problems the M16 was having due to the Army's misfeasance (or malfeasance, depending on your point of view). (and if you don't know what the Army did to screw up the M16, do some research, or PM me if you want my rant about it.) The forward assist only partially makes up for the fact that the AR design lacks a charging handle that works both ways. It fails to completely remedy that situation because instead of one handle that works both ways you now have two, each one only working one way. Also note that none of the AR10 class rifles have forward assists. I will qualify that statement slightly, I don't know if there is someone making an AR 10 class rifle with a forward assist today, but for decades they never had one. The only other rifle I'm aware of that has a one way handle is the HK designs, and they don't have forward assists. Nor does the M1 Garand, M14, M1 carbine, FAL or any of the Soviet designs. My personal experience with forward assists has always been crappy. In basic I had an older M16A1 with one of the "teardrop" FA buttons and that sumbitch snagged on EVERYTHING. Later on I had a newer one with the round button, and that was much better, solving the snagging problem. Never had to use it, so I won't say it worked well. In the 80s I had an AR with the round button assist and on those few occasions when I had a bad round, using the FA always created a serious jam. So serious you couldn't clear the chamber using the charging handle. The rifle had to be disassembled and the bolt carrier tapped rearward until the round came loose from being stuck in the chamber. This happened more than once with some poorly sized reloads. Shooting that same ammo (including those stuck rounds) from my mini 14 where a couple of rounds did not fully go into battery, and a rap on the back of the op rod handle locked the gun shut so it could be fired. The rest of the batch that jammed in the AR ran through my mini like a sewing machine.... SO, my experience is, that using the FA is a flip the coin thing. IF it closes the action fully, you're good to go, but IF NOT, you've got a jam you can't easily or quickly clear, so I don't use them anymore. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 25, 2021, 10:01 PM	#39
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,748	Eh, I still don't like them. I ordered an Aero slick side upper without the forward assist (because I can't get my go-to Anderson one anymore), and am having to return the Aero for the 2nd time. I can't get charging handles to fit in them. Anderson, Bravo, Geissele, and Strike Ind. won't fit, I discovered the new Rise Armament handle will fit my Aero though. It's going back. Again. And will probably buy a standard stripped upper instead, haven't had charging handle fitment problems with that model. FYI...my cheapy Bear Creek Arsenal side charging upper doesn't have a forward assist, doesn't need it with a side charger... __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

December 9, 2021, 12:20 PM	#40
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,719	Civilian target usage for me only. Not once have i ever needed FA. The few times i did think i needed it the issue was a improperly sized reloads with some type of neck or shoulder issue and working the FA button did nothing to help gain complete battery. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

December 9, 2021, 02:30 PM	#41
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 12,973	It may have happened some time in history--like the odds of winning a 100 million+ dollar Powerball jackpot--but if the return of the carrier's momentum doesn't successfully get a cartridge into battery, my experience has always been an FA will do nothing but make a jam worse. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

December 9, 2021, 04:20 PM	#42
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,559	I'm definitely in the camp of, "if it doesn't want to go into the chamber, trying to cram it in with forward assist makes less sense than ejecting the known bad round". That said, the manual of arms for loading some guns includes giving a forward shove on the op rod handle to ensure the round is seated; where do you draw the line between ensuring a good round is seated, and not trying to force a defective round home? When Eugene Stoner was approached about a forward assist for the M16, he essentially refused to take part. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

November 25, 2021, 03:19 PM	#28
HWS Member Join Date: July 1, 2018 Posts: 90	I have never used it even once. But carrying through with Kyle's account of things, it saved his live in the closest of close quarter combat. Gotta give it credit where credit is due.

November 25, 2021, 06:20 PM	#35
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	Both of mine have forward assists, but the only time I use them is for peace of mind if I do a brass check (let the bolt go forward then hit the FA with my palm). I can't think of a single malfunction drill that includes the forward assist.

November 25, 2021, 06:21 PM	#36
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	Forgot to say, I don't mind having it at all. I use it, and something looks odd to me on an AR without one.

November 25, 2021, 09:01 PM	#38
SF Mike Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 9	Even though it is not a comforting feeling being issued a piece with a Fwd Assist, I found it a necessary evil in the field. Along with the dust flap. We spent a lot of time in a swampy environment where the piece sometimes got submerged in dirty water. As mentioned in another forum, it was a good idea to open the action a bit and "drain" the bore. Bits of floating detritus also got into the action and magazines as well. Sometimes we would empty and disassemble the mags and clean out the stuff.

December 10, 2021, 05:57 PM	#43
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	In 21 years I have used the forward assist exactly 3 times. Each time was when I accidentally put 31 rounds into the mag and not 30. The spring pressure didn't allow for the BCG to go all the way home. A push of the forward assist and things were where they were supposed to be. This was after looking into the ejection port and seeing what the problem was. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

December 10, 2021, 07:57 PM	#44
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	I cant say I'm all that excited to have an FA, but I don't object to having one. There was an original Colt,SN in the 3xxx range in the mid 1960's in the house. Those had no FA I've been around them owned and shot them ever since. I do not recall a FA ever fixing a problem,but I dont recall an FA causing one. Armalite AR-10's and DPMS LR308s seem to get by fine without. IMO,its not a deal breaker either way. I don't get emotional over them. There is nothing about having an FA that requires me to be stupid about using it. Range toys and PD guns,etc, What difference does it make? Realistically? I'm 69 years old. Not likely I'll be doing any swamp combat operations. As far as those troops who will be using the weapon in combat.its best I just STFU and let them figure it out. Where it MIGHT make a difference is the package deal, A slickside may lack a dustcover. No dustcover could be a dealbreaker. Here is another potential dealbreaker. I do 7075 Aluminum forging receivers, Period. Some of the slickside variants are made from 6061 alloy extrusions. Definitely inferior material and a "Nope" from me. But its the 6061,and lack of dustcover, not the FA I reject them for.

December 10, 2021, 08:00 PM	#45
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,610	I don't use mine for hunting, not a hunting rifle. Again, for civilian use, I see no need.

December 11, 2021, 12:14 AM	#47
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,387	I’ve “used” the forward assist just to see if it works. I deliberately made the bolt not close fully on a round. I’ve done it more than once on several rifles. Sometimes it takes more than one push. To me it seems easier and more intuitive to just yank the charging handle and shuck the round. I think riding the bolt is a bad practice, but just my opinion. I feel that semiautos should be loaded and chambered with the full force of the action itself. The inertia of the moving components is the best way to seat the cartridge... I think an AR is a fine hunting gun if used within its capabilities for caliber. You don’t have to fill a magazine just because you can. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

December 16, 2021, 08:43 PM	#48
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	After doing a press check it can be handy to have the forward assist to put it back into battery.

December 16, 2021, 11:43 PM	#49
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,127	A forward assist can be a life saver. Sometimes it is faster to smack the assist to put the bolt into battery in the heat of the moment. There is a reason it is there. Although, proper maintenance and ammunition will mitigate the possible need for the forward assist. Most of us do not get into firefights, but there was a time when I had to survive through a few. When you are outside the wire for extended periods of time in a hostile environment and your weapon might be a little dirty or have some built up carbon inside the bolt carrier, a forward assist may be the difference between getting a shot off or not. This is not a likely situation for most people to be in, but there is a reason the platform was designed with one, I would choose to have one over not. __________________ “We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace. – St. Augustine

December 17, 2021, 12:54 AM	#50
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,387	I’m a civilian now... rifle doesn’t go into battery, I’m not going to try anything until I investigate the cause. I get that it has a tactical purpose, but as a civilian the AR is impractical as a self defense weapon unless you walk around with one strapped to your body. It is highly unlikely that I will find myself doing that. I carry a pistol everywhere instead. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

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