686 cylinder Locked Up - Page 2

HighValleyRanch · August 30, 2023, 10:16 AM

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth!
The only three points engaging the cylinder are:
1. The cylinder stop
2. The cylinder pin on the ejector rod
3. the cylinder pawl to rotate as the hammer is pulled back

Since the cylinder latch moves back and forth, we might assume that the latch is pressing in on the cylinder pin to release it.
So the question for everyone to consider would be what else could cause the cylinder to not open?

The OP has already stated that there is a cylinder gap, so a squibb or bullet between the barrel and cylinder could not be the problem.
A high primer dragging on the rear?

Check with a flashlight to see that the pawl is not engaged, but since the hammer is down, I would assume that the pawl is not.

Someone suggested that the ejector rod might have unscrewed, but couldn't that be solved by looking into the barrel shroud to see if the rod is binding by being unscrewed?

So if there is no bullet in the gap, no pawl engaged, and the cylinder latch pushes in, why not use a rubber mallet to force the cylinder open?
That would be my line of thinking if it was my problem to deal with.

hatchet · August 30, 2023, 02:01 PM

Japle & HighValleyRanch,

Thank you both for chiming in with the suggestions. I think what you both have pointed out, sounds like the most probable at this point. I contacted a gunsmith yesterday and am going to take it to him tomorrow. I will run these thoughts by him that you have mentioned.
Unfortunately where I live in Montana, there is no authorized S&W repair options, and the nearest gunsmith is an hour away.

Japle · August 30, 2023, 04:17 PM

Been thinking about this.
When you pull the trigger, either SA or DA, the first thing that happens is the nose of the trigger cams the cylinder stop down. As you describe it, the cylinder won't rotate. Is the cylinder stop engaged? If so, something is blocking the stop and keeping it from rotating and releasing the cylinder. I can't imagine either the trigger nose or the cylinder stop being broken. Never seen that happen.
My guess - and it's just a guess - is there's something that's jammed the trigger or the stop.
I just did an action job on a 686+ and told the owner that it must have been the last gun that went through QC on a Friday just before a long weekend. Really rough with insane number of sharp edges and tool marks. The nose of the trigger that cams the cylinder stop was very sharp and it took over 5 lbs of pressure to release. Just ridiculous. There could be a piece of something left in your gun that's shifted and is gumming up the works.
Several years ago, I bought a 686SSR that had six chambers and seven cylinder flutes. That meant most of the chamber walls were far too thin for safety. I made a huge stink on the gun forums and now I have what's probably the only 686SSR with an unfluted cylinder. Needless to say, I'm not very impressed with S&W's QC.
Let us know what you find out.

hatchet · August 30, 2023, 04:33 PM

Japle,

This is good information to know, and I will share it with the gunsmith tomorrow.
I have a 8 shot TRR8 that I bought 4-5 years ago. I have put probably 500 rounds through it with zero issues.
I also have a couple newer 629's and several older pre-lock 629's from the 80's and 90's, that have never had an issue.
Maybe this if more of an issue with the k frame and/or 686 in general.
Makes me want to go with the 7 shot GP 100 for a substitute for the 686.

Japle · August 31, 2023, 03:32 PM

hatchet,
I have ten S&W revolvers right now and have owned and tuned dozens more. Most of them have been pretty good out of the box and excellent after the actions were slicked up.
I've also owned and tuned a bunch of Rugers, but I don't own any now. I could never get anywhere near as good a DA pull on a Ruger as on a Smith.
Most of my revolvers have never been fired SA, even when used in hunting. A M-29 I own has the trigger stop set so far back that it can't be cocked SA, something I didn't even realize until a friend tried cocking it. I shot some hogs with that gun, a couple of them running flat-out all DA.
A set of Bang, Inc springs, an extended firing pin (if your gun has the in-frame pin) and a professional action job makes all the difference in the world. Night and day. Fire and water.

Jim Watson · August 31, 2023, 04:27 PM

Quote:

A M-29 I own has the trigger stop set so far back that it can't be cocked SA,

The guy that set up my M67 for IDPA SSR did that intentionally. He said that if I wanted to shoot SA, just file the stop until the hammer would sear up. Not the usual method of grinding off the full cock notch to make it permanently DAO.

RoyceP · August 31, 2023, 04:30 PM

I would take it to the nearest S&W authorized repair center and drop it off to be fixed under warranty.

**4V50 Gary** · September 2, 2023, 10:01 AM

What does the term "half stroked" mean?

tangolima · September 2, 2023, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

What does the term "half stroked" mean?

I took it as the firing pin stopped short of hitting the primer.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

MC 1911 · September 2, 2023, 03:54 PM

I took it as half cocked...Maybe he will come back & tell us!

tangolima · September 2, 2023, 04:33 PM

686 doesn't have half cock notch.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

**4V50 Gary** · September 2, 2023, 07:07 PM

The S&W can be locked up if the trigger is not fully released and then pressed again, but he says he released it fully.

I wonder if it was super dry inside with no lube or so dirtied up that it jammed?

Personally I would love to work on that gun and check out the insides.

MC 1911 · September 2, 2023, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangolima

686 doesn't have half cock notch.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

No it doesn't have a half cock notch, but you can still pull the hammer back 1/2 way which is what I took as it couldn't be fully cocked.

hatchet · September 9, 2023, 07:07 PM

So I took it to a gunsmith and dropped it off last Thursday and just picked it back up a couple days ago.
He said there was a particle internally binding the cylinder. Blamed it on a MIM part.
He polished everything, replaced a rebound spring and tweeked the action for a lighter trigger pull. Shoots awesome now.
I dropped off 3 629's with him to do the same action job.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 9, 2023, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the after-action report. I'm happy it was something simple, and that the gun is now better than it was before.

**4V50 Gary** · September 10, 2023, 04:36 AM

MIM parts breakage. Bad part then. Can you ask him what part?

I suspect the DA sear, cylinder stop are modernly MIM. Hammer and trigger were case hardened but not MIM in the old days. How about the internal safety (Clinton era)?

Japle · September 15, 2023, 02:52 PM

hatchet,
Good to hear you got it fixed. Not surprised that it was a piece of something stuck in there.
A good action job is worth the money. I've got 3 686s on my bench right now and a week to do the work. So much for being retired!

August 30, 2023, 10:16 AM	#26
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth! The only three points engaging the cylinder are: 1. The cylinder stop 2. The cylinder pin on the ejector rod 3. the cylinder pawl to rotate as the hammer is pulled back Since the cylinder latch moves back and forth, we might assume that the latch is pressing in on the cylinder pin to release it. So the question for everyone to consider would be what else could cause the cylinder to not open? The OP has already stated that there is a cylinder gap, so a squibb or bullet between the barrel and cylinder could not be the problem. A high primer dragging on the rear? Check with a flashlight to see that the pawl is not engaged, but since the hammer is down, I would assume that the pawl is not. Someone suggested that the ejector rod might have unscrewed, but couldn't that be solved by looking into the barrel shroud to see if the rod is binding by being unscrewed? So if there is no bullet in the gap, no pawl engaged, and the cylinder latch pushes in, why not use a rubber mallet to force the cylinder open? That would be my line of thinking if it was my problem to deal with. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 30, 2023, 02:01 PM	#27
hatchet Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 226	Japle & HighValleyRanch, Thank you both for chiming in with the suggestions. I think what you both have pointed out, sounds like the most probable at this point. I contacted a gunsmith yesterday and am going to take it to him tomorrow. I will run these thoughts by him that you have mentioned. Unfortunately where I live in Montana, there is no authorized S&W repair options, and the nearest gunsmith is an hour away. __________________ All gave some, some gave all.

August 30, 2023, 04:33 PM	#29
hatchet Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 226	Japle, This is good information to know, and I will share it with the gunsmith tomorrow. I have a 8 shot TRR8 that I bought 4-5 years ago. I have put probably 500 rounds through it with zero issues. I also have a couple newer 629's and several older pre-lock 629's from the 80's and 90's, that have never had an issue. Maybe this if more of an issue with the k frame and/or 686 in general. Makes me want to go with the 7 shot GP 100 for a substitute for the 686. __________________ All gave some, some gave all.

September 2, 2023, 10:01 AM	#33
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	What does the term "half stroked" mean? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 2, 2023, 07:07 PM	#37
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	The S&W can be locked up if the trigger is not fully released and then pressed again, but he says he released it fully. I wonder if it was super dry inside with no lube or so dirtied up that it jammed? Personally I would love to work on that gun and check out the insides. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 30, 2023, 04:17 PM	#28
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	Been thinking about this. When you pull the trigger, either SA or DA, the first thing that happens is the nose of the trigger cams the cylinder stop down. As you describe it, the cylinder won't rotate. Is the cylinder stop engaged? If so, something is blocking the stop and keeping it from rotating and releasing the cylinder. I can't imagine either the trigger nose or the cylinder stop being broken. Never seen that happen. My guess - and it's just a guess - is there's something that's jammed the trigger or the stop. I just did an action job on a 686+ and told the owner that it must have been the last gun that went through QC on a Friday just before a long weekend. Really rough with insane number of sharp edges and tool marks. The nose of the trigger that cams the cylinder stop was very sharp and it took over 5 lbs of pressure to release. Just ridiculous. There could be a piece of something left in your gun that's shifted and is gumming up the works. Several years ago, I bought a 686SSR that had six chambers and seven cylinder flutes. That meant most of the chamber walls were far too thin for safety. I made a huge stink on the gun forums and now I have what's probably the only 686SSR with an unfluted cylinder. Needless to say, I'm not very impressed with S&W's QC. Let us know what you find out.

August 31, 2023, 03:32 PM	#30
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	hatchet, I have ten S&W revolvers right now and have owned and tuned dozens more. Most of them have been pretty good out of the box and excellent after the actions were slicked up. I've also owned and tuned a bunch of Rugers, but I don't own any now. I could never get anywhere near as good a DA pull on a Ruger as on a Smith. Most of my revolvers have never been fired SA, even when used in hunting. A M-29 I own has the trigger stop set so far back that it can't be cocked SA, something I didn't even realize until a friend tried cocking it. I shot some hogs with that gun, a couple of them running flat-out all DA. A set of Bang, Inc springs, an extended firing pin (if your gun has the in-frame pin) and a professional action job makes all the difference in the world. Night and day. Fire and water.

August 31, 2023, 04:30 PM	#32
RoyceP Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2020 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 234	I would take it to the nearest S&W authorized repair center and drop it off to be fixed under warranty.

September 2, 2023, 03:54 PM	#35
MC 1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 373	I took it as half cocked...Maybe he will come back & tell us!

September 2, 2023, 04:33 PM	#36
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,834	686 doesn't have half cock notch. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

September 9, 2023, 07:07 PM	#39
hatchet Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 226	So I took it to a gunsmith and dropped it off last Thursday and just picked it back up a couple days ago. He said there was a particle internally binding the cylinder. Blamed it on a MIM part. He polished everything, replaced a rebound spring and tweeked the action for a lighter trigger pull. Shoots awesome now. I dropped off 3 629's with him to do the same action job. __________________ All gave some, some gave all.

September 9, 2023, 08:54 PM	#40
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,477	Thanks for the after-action report. I'm happy it was something simple, and that the gun is now better than it was before. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

September 10, 2023, 04:36 AM	#41
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	MIM parts breakage. Bad part then. Can you ask him what part? I suspect the DA sear, cylinder stop are modernly MIM. Hammer and trigger were case hardened but not MIM in the old days. How about the internal safety (Clinton era)? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 15, 2023, 02:52 PM	#42
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	hatchet, Good to hear you got it fixed. Not surprised that it was a piece of something stuck in there. A good action job is worth the money. I've got 3 686s on my bench right now and a week to do the work. So much for being retired!