SASS Single Action Revolver selection

KnightofCydonia · June 21, 2013, 02:57 PM

Hi,

I'm debating between a Ruger New Blackhawk and Ruger New Vaquero.

Can I compete with either or does the Blackhawk's sights make it ineligible?

Also, what barrel lengths are considered the best compromise between sight radius and quick draw? 4.5'', 5.5'' or 7.5''?

And in terms of caliber, should I get a Blackhawk convertible that takes 357/9mm or 45colt/45acp? I own a Rossi 92 in 357/38 so that would make sense I suppose.

How does the New Blackhawk handle compared to the New Vaquero? Is it a heavy ungainly beast of power compared to the trim slick handling of the Vaquero?

Also, how is windage on the Vaqueros? Without the adjustable sights, is POI very different from POA? Would the Blackhawk adjustable sights be the deal breaker?

And lastly, why is the Blackhawk less expensive than the Vaquero although it is stronger and has adjustable sights? Cowboy marketing?

Hawg · June 21, 2013, 03:05 PM

First of all you need two. The adjustable sights will restrict you to modern class unless they've changed the rules. Fixed sights usually hit close to POA laterally but may need filing to get on target vertically. However some just don't come close. Most prefer the short barrels as sight radius is really not important at 7 yards with a 16 inch target.

ChuteTheMall · June 21, 2013, 11:29 PM

To all of your questions, the answer is yes.

Anything you listed would be fine for SASS, it's mostly personal preferences on barrel length, sights, and caliber. Go ahead and show up at the matches, pards will be happy to loan you a gun to try out. Love to brag.

Most popular seems to be .38spl because it's cheaper, shorter barrels for faster draw and targets are so big that long sight radius and adjustable sights don't help (or hurt).

I started with one Blackhawk in 6.5" and one stainless new vaquero in 5.5" and a Rossi, all shooting .38 spl.
Within a year a Uberti replaced the Rossi (huge improvement, but triple the price) and I ran across another SS vaquero to replace the Blackhawk, primarily because I wanted interchangeable identical pistols for confidence reasons.

Really, you won't know what you want until you shoot several choices.
I will say that longer barrels look cool but most don't shoot them because this sport is very fast and very close.

KnightofCydonia · June 21, 2013, 11:52 PM

Is the Uberti Cattleman better than the Rugers?

DPris · June 22, 2013, 01:18 AM

No.
More authentic in design, less durable in construction.
Denis

thickice · June 22, 2013, 08:12 AM

First of all, there is no "modern" category now. I would suggest 2 things, first ask this question at SASSnet.com/forums and second go to some SASS matches and see what others are shooting, you will get a chance to handle several different pistols.

Jbar4Ranch · June 22, 2013, 09:50 AM

Modern went away in favor of age based categories, and adjustable sights are now legal in all the new age based categories, as well as B Western.

http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/SAS...ighlighted.pdf

The vast majority of shooters are using 4 5/8 or 5 1/2" barrels and .38/.357 & .45 Colt easily outnumber all other calibers combined. The smaller bore of .38 cal guns make them heavier than .45's and, TO ME, make them seem "unbalanced". As to the price difference, I would hazard a guess that it has, #1, something to do with supply and demand, and, #2, I think the Blackhawk has an alloy grip frame while the Vaquero's is steel.
Although I've only seen it a very few times, the 9mm and .45acp cylinders are legal, depending on the category. I've used a .45acp cylinder a couple times in a Uberti, just to mess with people, lol.
The fixed sights of the Vaquero will likely be very close L/R, close enough for the close ranges involved with CAS anyway, and will likely print slightly low of point of aim. This is a deliberate move so the shooter can decide on a load, then CAREFULLY file a few thousandths off the front sight to bring point of impact up to point of aim. If the gun prints left or right too far for your taste, the barrel can be clamped in a set of barrel blocks in a vise and the frame turned on or off the barrel slightly to center the groups.
I used Blackhawks my first year in the game, but have shot fixed sights ever since, simply because of authenticity, other than before Modern went away, I would also shoot adjustable sight Old Armies in that category just to be different.
I've got a lot of Uberti revolvers, but the Rugers are most definitely more durable and reliable. I've had Uberti (and Colt) leaf springs break a couple times, but have NEVER had a failure of a Blackhawk or Vaquero/New Vaquero.

newfrontier45 · June 22, 2013, 10:14 AM

These are very general questions and so much of the answer depends on you, you really need to get out there and handle/shoot some guns. You may be all hot & heavy for Rugers with adjustable sights and decide you'd rather shoot something more authentic.

Vaqueros cost more because they're all steel and receive a higher polish that's done through an additional process the Blackhawks never see. Although all new Blackhawks have steel rear sights and steel ejector housings. Only the grip frames on the blued guns are aluminum.

Hawg · June 22, 2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Modern went away in favor of age based categories, and adjustable sights are now legal in all the new age based categories, as well as B Western.

Thanks Jbar, its been awhile.

gak · June 24, 2013, 11:08 AM

This is one of those situations where the .38/.357 and .44/.45 work equally well for entirely different reasons and depending on your objectives, as mentioned....with cost and perceived lower recoil (.38 esp) versus balance and "authenticity" their respective advantages. The 4.62 (Ruger)/.4.75 (SAAs) lengths are preferred by the fast draw types, and are further "needed" for the smaller bores to keep weight down--yes every 1/2 oz counts for a lot of CAS and general purpose shooters--and give them at least a semblance of balance. For many folks, the bigger bores are well balanced regardless of barrel length, though again the shorter barrels preferred for competition requiring fast draw/handling. The 5.5" is a popular compromise with both small and big bore types as a general purpose shooting/trailing-camping piece, but shorter again preferred for a long day on the hip. With the OP's .357 Rossi, I'd say a 4.62 (4-5/8") Ruger New Vaquero in .357--shooting .38s for CAS and at the range--would be the perfect starting point. The special SASS stainless pair may still be available "out there" somewhere, and comes with the shorter spur Montado/SBH hammer liked by a lot of CAS'ers and GP shooters alike.
My .02.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 24, 2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBar4Ranch

Modern went away in favor of age based categories, and adjustable sights are now legal in all the new age based categories, as well as B Western.

Wow!

I didn't know that. That means I could enter with my Blackhawk. (If there were any SASS events around here -- which there aren't.)

Crunchy Frog · June 24, 2013, 05:03 PM

For the original poster and anyone else reading this thread who is interested (or thinks they may be interested) in cowboy action shooting: Before you buy guns, leather or whatever, attend a local match and talk to the cowboy shooters. You will learn more in one hour than you would get from reading internet stuff for a year. More importantly you will avoid the all-too-common and costly mistake of buying what you THOUGHT you needed. Buy once, cry once and all that.

To find a local club go the SASS website click on the SASS Clubs link. Here's a shortcut: http://www.sassnet.com/clubs/index.php Click on your state; it will bring up a list of clubs with websites, match dates, and contact information for the match director or some other designated contact. I bet you a dollar that person will be the type who loves to talk cowboy shooting. Tell them you are interested. Some clubs offer "new shooter clinics" or "practice sessions" where they will show you the ropes. Otherwise they will probably tell you to attend the next club match. Cowboy shooters love to show off their hardware. Often you will get recommendations on good places to buy, or there may be other shooters with used guns for sale. Most of the really good deals I have seen have word-of-mouth private sales.

OK, back to Blackhawks. I agree with most of the other replies. Blackhawks are fine. Most are built of the larger frame whereas the New Vaqueros are build on the "medium" frame which to my way of thinking has a better proportion. There are exceptions like the 50th Anniversary .357 Blackhawk which was built on the medium frame.

I have noticed several shooters in my area gravitating to the Blackhawk, often because the sights are easier to see. I know the fixed sights on my stainless New Vaqs are rather dazzling in direct sunlight. You can win the World Championship with either of them; you can finish dead last in your local club match with either one, too.

As to choice of caliber: .38/.357 is the most popular choice, primarily because it is less expensive to feed. We shoot 120 rounds in a monthly match (plus shotgun shells). If you handload, the component costs are lower for the smaller caliber. There is only one category (Classic Cowboy) in which a .40 plus rifle/pistol is mandatory. The second most popular chambering is .45 Colt. As I told a friend of mine when he started out, if you WANT to shoot .45 Colt, shoot .45 Colt. As an aside, most of the people I know who started out shooting .45 have since purchased .38/.357 guns. I don't see any advantage to a cowboy shooter in purchasing the convertible cylinders but if you want them, buy them. I like to keep life simple by using the same ammo for my revolvers as in my rifle.

PS to Aguila Blanca: You might be surprised to find that there is a SASS cowboy club near you after all. After I'd been shooting cowboy for about three years, we set up an "informational" table at the big gun show in my town. For two days people came to our table and said, "I've been interested in cowboy shooting for a while but I didn't know anyone around here was shooting it".

**Aguila Blanca** · June 25, 2013, 04:53 PM

Crunchy -- Thanks for the link, but it confirmed what I already knew. The nearest of the clubs in my state is 50 miles from me, and it would mean a drive on an hour and a half each way. At my age that's simply too far to drive just to satisfy curiosity. To me, "around here" means within half an hour, and preferably within 15 or 20 minutes.

Jbar4Ranch · June 25, 2013, 07:44 PM

Fifty miles is my close one, and I regularly drive up to 110 miles each way to shoot a match. But this is Montana and there isn't any traffic to deal with.

Crunchy Frog · June 26, 2013, 07:47 PM

I admit being spoiled. My home club is four miles from my front door. The next closest club is about 35 minutes away.

Visit a "local" club and check it out. If you like it, maybe you can convince some other shooters in your area to start up a new club.

June 21, 2013, 11:29 PM	#3
ChuteTheMall Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 1999 Location: Sinkholeville Swamp Posts: 228	To all of your questions, the answer is yes. Anything you listed would be fine for SASS, it's mostly personal preferences on barrel length, sights, and caliber. Go ahead and show up at the matches, pards will be happy to loan you a gun to try out. Love to brag. Most popular seems to be .38spl because it's cheaper, shorter barrels for faster draw and targets are so big that long sight radius and adjustable sights don't help (or hurt). I started with one Blackhawk in 6.5" and one stainless new vaquero in 5.5" and a Rossi, all shooting .38 spl. Within a year a Uberti replaced the Rossi (huge improvement, but triple the price) and I ran across another SS vaquero to replace the Blackhawk, primarily because I wanted interchangeable identical pistols for confidence reasons. Really, you won't know what you want until you shoot several choices. I will say that longer barrels look cool but most don't shoot them because this sport is very fast and very close. __________________ ChuteTheMallGawdSortaMount

June 22, 2013, 09:50 AM	#7
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	Modern went away in favor of age based categories, and adjustable sights are now legal in all the new age based categories, as well as B Western. http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/SAS...ighlighted.pdf The vast majority of shooters are using 4 5/8 or 5 1/2" barrels and .38/.357 & .45 Colt easily outnumber all other calibers combined. The smaller bore of .38 cal guns make them heavier than .45's and, TO ME, make them seem "unbalanced". As to the price difference, I would hazard a guess that it has, #1, something to do with supply and demand, and, #2, I think the Blackhawk has an alloy grip frame while the Vaquero's is steel. Although I've only seen it a very few times, the 9mm and .45acp cylinders are legal, depending on the category. I've used a .45acp cylinder a couple times in a Uberti, just to mess with people, lol. The fixed sights of the Vaquero will likely be very close L/R, close enough for the close ranges involved with CAS anyway, and will likely print slightly low of point of aim. This is a deliberate move so the shooter can decide on a load, then CAREFULLY file a few thousandths off the front sight to bring point of impact up to point of aim. If the gun prints left or right too far for your taste, the barrel can be clamped in a set of barrel blocks in a vise and the frame turned on or off the barrel slightly to center the groups. I used Blackhawks my first year in the game, but have shot fixed sights ever since, simply because of authenticity, other than before Modern went away, I would also shoot adjustable sight Old Armies in that category just to be different. I've got a lot of Uberti revolvers, but the Rugers are most definitely more durable and reliable. I've had Uberti (and Colt) leaf springs break a couple times, but have NEVER had a failure of a Blackhawk or Vaquero/New Vaquero. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

June 25, 2013, 07:44 PM	#14
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	Fifty miles is my close one, and I regularly drive up to 110 miles each way to shoot a match. But this is Montana and there isn't any traffic to deal with. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

June 21, 2013, 02:57 PM	#1
KnightofCydonia Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 219	SASS Single Action Revolver selection Hi, I'm debating between a Ruger New Blackhawk and Ruger New Vaquero. Can I compete with either or does the Blackhawk's sights make it ineligible? Also, what barrel lengths are considered the best compromise between sight radius and quick draw? 4.5'', 5.5'' or 7.5''? And in terms of caliber, should I get a Blackhawk convertible that takes 357/9mm or 45colt/45acp? I own a Rossi 92 in 357/38 so that would make sense I suppose. How does the New Blackhawk handle compared to the New Vaquero? Is it a heavy ungainly beast of power compared to the trim slick handling of the Vaquero? Also, how is windage on the Vaqueros? Without the adjustable sights, is POI very different from POA? Would the Blackhawk adjustable sights be the deal breaker? And lastly, why is the Blackhawk less expensive than the Vaquero although it is stronger and has adjustable sights? Cowboy marketing?

June 21, 2013, 03:05 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	First of all you need two. The adjustable sights will restrict you to modern class unless they've changed the rules. Fixed sights usually hit close to POA laterally but may need filing to get on target vertically. However some just don't come close. Most prefer the short barrels as sight radius is really not important at 7 yards with a 16 inch target.

June 21, 2013, 11:52 PM	#4
KnightofCydonia Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 219	Is the Uberti Cattleman better than the Rugers?

June 22, 2013, 01:18 AM	#5
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	No. More authentic in design, less durable in construction. Denis

June 22, 2013, 08:12 AM	#6
thickice Member Join Date: December 15, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 69	First of all, there is no "modern" category now. I would suggest 2 things, first ask this question at SASSnet.com/forums and second go to some SASS matches and see what others are shooting, you will get a chance to handle several different pistols.

June 22, 2013, 10:14 AM	#8
newfrontier45 Junior member Join Date: February 23, 2012 Posts: 921	These are very general questions and so much of the answer depends on you, you really need to get out there and handle/shoot some guns. You may be all hot & heavy for Rugers with adjustable sights and decide you'd rather shoot something more authentic. Vaqueros cost more because they're all steel and receive a higher polish that's done through an additional process the Blackhawks never see. Although all new Blackhawks have steel rear sights and steel ejector housings. Only the grip frames on the blued guns are aluminum.

June 24, 2013, 11:08 AM	#10
gak Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2005 Location: Aridzona Posts: 2,767	This is one of those situations where the .38/.357 and .44/.45 work equally well for entirely different reasons and depending on your objectives, as mentioned....with cost and perceived lower recoil (.38 esp) versus balance and "authenticity" their respective advantages. The 4.62 (Ruger)/.4.75 (SAAs) lengths are preferred by the fast draw types, and are further "needed" for the smaller bores to keep weight down--yes every 1/2 oz counts for a lot of CAS and general purpose shooters--and give them at least a semblance of balance. For many folks, the bigger bores are well balanced regardless of barrel length, though again the shorter barrels preferred for competition requiring fast draw/handling. The 5.5" is a popular compromise with both small and big bore types as a general purpose shooting/trailing-camping piece, but shorter again preferred for a long day on the hip. With the OP's .357 Rossi, I'd say a 4.62 (4-5/8") Ruger New Vaquero in .357--shooting .38s for CAS and at the range--would be the perfect starting point. The special SASS stainless pair may still be available "out there" somewhere, and comes with the shorter spur Montado/SBH hammer liked by a lot of CAS'ers and GP shooters alike. My .02.

June 24, 2013, 05:03 PM	#12
Crunchy Frog Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 591	For the original poster and anyone else reading this thread who is interested (or thinks they may be interested) in cowboy action shooting: Before you buy guns, leather or whatever, attend a local match and talk to the cowboy shooters. You will learn more in one hour than you would get from reading internet stuff for a year. More importantly you will avoid the all-too-common and costly mistake of buying what you THOUGHT you needed. Buy once, cry once and all that. To find a local club go the SASS website click on the SASS Clubs link. Here's a shortcut: http://www.sassnet.com/clubs/index.php Click on your state; it will bring up a list of clubs with websites, match dates, and contact information for the match director or some other designated contact. I bet you a dollar that person will be the type who loves to talk cowboy shooting. Tell them you are interested. Some clubs offer "new shooter clinics" or "practice sessions" where they will show you the ropes. Otherwise they will probably tell you to attend the next club match. Cowboy shooters love to show off their hardware. Often you will get recommendations on good places to buy, or there may be other shooters with used guns for sale. Most of the really good deals I have seen have word-of-mouth private sales. OK, back to Blackhawks. I agree with most of the other replies. Blackhawks are fine. Most are built of the larger frame whereas the New Vaqueros are build on the "medium" frame which to my way of thinking has a better proportion. There are exceptions like the 50th Anniversary .357 Blackhawk which was built on the medium frame. I have noticed several shooters in my area gravitating to the Blackhawk, often because the sights are easier to see. I know the fixed sights on my stainless New Vaqs are rather dazzling in direct sunlight. You can win the World Championship with either of them; you can finish dead last in your local club match with either one, too. As to choice of caliber: .38/.357 is the most popular choice, primarily because it is less expensive to feed. We shoot 120 rounds in a monthly match (plus shotgun shells). If you handload, the component costs are lower for the smaller caliber. There is only one category (Classic Cowboy) in which a .40 plus rifle/pistol is mandatory. The second most popular chambering is .45 Colt. As I told a friend of mine when he started out, if you WANT to shoot .45 Colt, shoot .45 Colt. As an aside, most of the people I know who started out shooting .45 have since purchased .38/.357 guns. I don't see any advantage to a cowboy shooter in purchasing the convertible cylinders but if you want them, buy them. I like to keep life simple by using the same ammo for my revolvers as in my rifle. PS to Aguila Blanca: You might be surprised to find that there is a SASS cowboy club near you after all. After I'd been shooting cowboy for about three years, we set up an "informational" table at the big gun show in my town. For two days people came to our table and said, "I've been interested in cowboy shooting for a while but I didn't know anyone around here was shooting it".

June 25, 2013, 04:53 PM	#13
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,473	Crunchy -- Thanks for the link, but it confirmed what I already knew. The nearest of the clubs in my state is 50 miles from me, and it would mean a drive on an hour and a half each way. At my age that's simply too far to drive just to satisfy curiosity. To me, "around here" means within half an hour, and preferably within 15 or 20 minutes.

June 26, 2013, 07:47 PM	#15
Crunchy Frog Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2008 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 591	I admit being spoiled. My home club is four miles from my front door. The next closest club is about 35 minutes away. Visit a "local" club and check it out. If you like it, maybe you can convince some other shooters in your area to start up a new club.