Reloading 9mm, First Time

[kavkaz]

After much thought and a lot of independent research, I decided to start learning the artisan skill of reloading my own ammunition. I want to do it right, and I understand there are many factors at play which is why before I even assemble my press, I want to reach out to people who know more than I do in this area for advice.

I try to base my decisions on numbers and truths, and I respect physics! People go back and forth often about using one data set instead of following another data set. Fair enough. I've tried to take it all into consideration when creating my own data sets.

I am using Berry's 9mm 115gr RN plated bullets (.356) and Hodgdon CFE Pistol Powder. After geeking out in my notebook I represented the data into two charts that I am want to use to make some kind of educated guess on where to actually start my load weight and what to expect and where the max load is and what values to expect. Of course, I want to tailor my ammunition to my firearms but I want to make sure I can create ammunition based on real data that is safe to fire and make most efficient for my handgun.

I did extensive comparisons with powder shapes, burn rates, and compositions from seven different reloading books, and reading others' experiences. Not all sources gave me velocities for starting loads so while it is an issue to represent the data exactly throughout. If for the sake of representing relevant data, reflecting the max charge load weight vs velocity to determine a starting load while visualizing velocity trend by assuming a linear relationship between charge weight and velocity. Only the max load weights have a known muzzle velocity hence the line density.



In my findings I was able to get the pressure (PSI) at the maximum load for 6 of the 8 other powders which I graphed to analyze the relationship with max load and generated pressure. I do not know myself, other than internet research, what an acceptable cartridge pressure is to measure at, which is why I wanted to have the data in front of me. Would it make sense to create 5 rounds ranging from charge weights from 4.8gr - 5.4gr based on this chart and my specific components, then fine tuning from there, worrying about other values.



Please give me any amount of productive advice, or criticism for any reason. I love to learn and become better skilled in as many facets of life as I can. I would be grateful to know at this point, where any experienced, or enthusiastic reloaders would go from this point on (if it wasn't all useless) given I have all the components and machinery.

[jetinteriorguy]

I only load 124gr and occasionally 47gr copper plated bullets from different sources and have shot at least 20,000 of the 124gr and only about 500 of the 47gr, so my experience is based on this. I find both cast and jacketed bullets similar in profile to the plated I’m using, then I start at mid range of the cast data and max out at mid range of the jacketed data and it works well. I’d say 90% of the time I wind up around max range of cast or starting range of jacketed for best results accuracy wise. Powder wise I’ve used 700X, Clays, Titegroup, Power Pistol, and HS6. My favorite is Clays for accuracy and soft shooting followed by 700X. Titegroup is great but runs hot and can get spikey, Power Pistol seems to have sharper recoil and a lot of flash, and HS6 with a magnum primer with the heavier bullets works great, especially in my carbine. I don’t have any particular data to recommend for research, this is purely on my personal experience.

[fotog54]

Those would be fine.

The following came from the Hodgdon website:

Manufacturer	Powder	C.O.L.	Grs.   Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure        Grs.   Vel. (ft/s)   Pressure
Hodgdon	    CFE Pistol	1.100"	4.9        1,124       28,800 PSI      5.4        1,209        33,800 PSI

(Edit: Please read board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

Use lead bullet loads for copper plated ammo.

Will you be loading for more than 1 9mm pistol? Average factory load for the 115grn bullet is in the 1000-1150fps range.

Welcome to the world of reloading!

Lee

[kavkaz]

Originally Posted by fotog54

Will you be loading for more than 1 9mm pistol? Average factory load for the 115grn bullet is in the 1000-1150fps range.

Thank you for your response. I am loading to shoot mainly out of my CZ75 SP01 which has a 4.6" barrel.

Even shortly after starting this thread I found so much more information that makes me again question what I'm doing and if I'm going about it the right way.

[44 AMP]

and welcome to the world of reloading!

The 9mm Luger is not the most "forgiving" round to learn reloading with, but it can be done safely and efficiently with care.

visualizing velocity trend by assuming a linear relationship between charge weight and velocity.

This is an idea to be careful with, because while there is a linear relationship, it is not always a constant slope. Probably won't see it in 9mm due to the small charge weights and narrow range between min and max, but there is often a point of diminishing returns, where adding X amount more powder does not yield the same velocity increase it previously did. All a matter of many factors, most of which probably won't apply to what you're looking to do, but it is something to be aware of.

reloading manuals are good guidelines, but their data is what they got with what they tested and every gun and load combination has the potential to be different from what they tested.

I don't use any of the powders you have, so I won't comment on them, specifically, but there are a number of general things that always apply.

First off, there is the industry standard working pressure. Its in the books, often given as slightly different numbers, based on the measuring system used.

The 9mm is a small case, and the volume of powder space can vary by make and sometimes even lot# of the brass used. Additionally, and important in the 9mm is the fact that small changes in bullet seating depth can have a significant change in the pressure due to the change in the powder space volume. Specifics are unique to the actual components used, of course, but it is possible to go from a pressure under listed max to one over listed max with a small change in bullet seating depth.

Every single thing about the gun and load (case, primer, powder charge, bullet and the assembly of the loaded rounds) is a factor. Some are much more important than others, but all play a part.

Most things will fall in or near the middle of the bell curve, but there are always results at both the high and low end, and one does not know for certain exactly what you will have with your gun, components and loading practices until they are tested by shooting them.

Good Luck, be safe, have fun!

Just be aware that there are more things involved than you have already plotted on your graphs.

(also be alert for information overload, those of us who have been loading for decades tend to forget how small a beginner's frame of reference can be.)

[tangolima]

Tinkering with data is fun. But do refrain from extrapolation. It can go bad real fast. Interpolation is ok. Strictly sticking to the book is the best policy for a beginner.

9mm is indeed not the best caliber to start with. .45 acp or .38 spl is better. Plated bullet is probably not the best bullet type to start either. Ordinary jacketed middle weight is recommended.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[rc]

Go slow and you'll be fine.

Use a loading block and drop your powder in batches of 10 to 50 cases, check your weights for several to make sure your drop is consistent and use a flashlight to look into the cases from above to make sure your charges are uniform. Don't use 1.169 as your loaded length. That's way too long for most 9mms to feed reliably. Something around 1.135 is more typical of loaded factory ammo. Practice making dummy rounds with no powder and primer and make sure they will feed and chamber manually. You take your loaded dummy and press it against a wood block on a table. Make sure the bullets won't set back to check your crimp. Once your dies are adjusted, and you have primed and flared cases with powder in them, the assembly process is pretty straight forward by capping the bullet onto the powder charged case with the seat/crimp die.

[Shadow9mm]

Dont extrapolate.

Max is max, its in the manual, exceeding that is at your own risk

Do not exceed 1250fps with berrys plated bullets, per berrys.

Different data sources use different barrel lengths. Unless you can verify the same barrel lengths were used your comparing apples and oranges.

Work up from start. Every gun is an individual. I just tested a load today that showed excessive pressure signs 1.2g below the listed maximum charge.

Powders vary from lot to lot. The lot they tested with is not the one you have.

The load in your manual that is the fastest, will be the fastest regardless of barrel length.

Guns work by converting a solid (gunpowder) into a gas. The greater the volume of powder, the greater the volume of gas that can be created. But the pressure has to be controlled so it does not burst the barrel.

You could use a small quantity of a fast burning powder and reach maximum safe working pressures. Or use a slower powder with more volume that is well below max pressures but that produces more velocity due to the increased volume of gas produced.

The slower burning the powder, the more you get to use, and the greater the velocity. With the limiting factor being case capacity.

[Nathan]

Is this Quickload or another internal ballistic modeling software output driving the charts? I ask because many of those powders are not available in the USA.

IME, these models do a terrible job with straight wall cartridges. Pressures are shown too low when I model in Quickload across the board.

That said, I’d be willing to give 9mm loading advice.

I don’t think your base load recipe is too bad. It might be worth starting with slightly higher volume powder so it is harder to double charge a round.

A common new reloader error is double charging a case. You need to have a countermeasure applied for this. Weigh each charge, check 10-50 and compare thrown charges. Progressive press with auto indexing, check die, higher volume powder, etc.

[Chuck Norris]

The first thing I learned when loading for my CZ 75 is the chambers tend to be short,I would load about 10 rounds then do the drop test in your barrel to see if they fit,if too long shorten them up some until they all fit.

The CFE powder would be a fine choice

[44 AMP]

The chambers aren't short. The rifling leade can be. Some models of Walthers are also known for this.

The first step loading for one of these guns should be to take the bullet you are going to use, and find out how long it can be seated without hitting the rifling.

and also check at that length that it feeds from the bottom of the magazine. The maximum usable cartridge length with that bullet is the longest one that feeds all the way through the magazine and into the chamber without issue.

This length may be longer or shorter than the industry spec max loaded length. It is worth knowing what lengths will work, with the bullet you are using.

THEN look at seating depth, powder space, and the appropriate powders and amounts to fill it, and work up loads carefully.

[Unclenick]

Manufacturer	Powder	C.O.L.	Grs.   Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure        Grs.   Vel. (ft/s)   Pressure
Hodgdon	    CFE Pistol	1.100"	4.9        1,124       28,800 PSI      5.4        1,209        33,800 PSI

1209 fps/5.4 grains = 224 FPS/Grain

(1209 FPS - 1124 FPS)/(5.4 Grs. - 4.9 Grs.) = 170 FPS / grain

So actual FPS gain per grain is lower up near peak pressure than overall charge would indicate.

On the other hand:

33,800 PSI / 5.4 grs. = 6,259 PSI / grain

but,

(33,800 PSI - 28,800 PSI) / (5.5 grs. - 4.9 grs.) = 10,000 PSI / grain

So, velocity gains fewer FPS per grain as pressure goes up, but pressure gains more PSI per grain as pressure goes up. Another reason extrapolation is hazardous. A lot of people think they are matching pressure when they match velocity with different powders, but that isn't so. Even with the same bullet and powder type, if you match a past velocity with a different lot (or case or primer) and the charge required is lower than you used before to reach that velocity in the same gun with the same bullet, then peak pressure is higher. If it takes more of the new powder lot (or with the new case or primer, but same bullet) then peak pressure is lower than the original load had.

[kavkaz]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

the fact that small changes in bullet seating depth can have a significant change in the pressure due to the change in the powder space volume. Specifics are unique to the actual components used, of course, but it is possible to go from a pressure under listed max to one over listed max with a small change in bullet seating depth.

Heard. I will make sure to look for any inconsistencies throughout the process with my specific components.

Originally Posted by tangolima

But do refrain from extrapolation. It can go bad real fast. Interpolation is ok. Strictly sticking to the book is the best policy for a beginner.

I appreciate it, I've been trying to gather information from as many sources as possible, from books to emailing component companies. Unfortunately, l it seems to just become an information overload as someone mentioned. I do think I have an idea now on where to go after reading all these responses.

Originally Posted by rc

Go slow and you'll be fine.

Use a loading block and drop your powder in batches of 10 to 50 cases, check your weights for several to make sure your drop is consistent and use a flashlight to look into the cases

Sounds like a good plan. I'll take notes during production and testing as well. Are there any other metrics that you would typically measure or organize data during the firing/testing stage?

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Guns work by converting a solid (gunpowder) into a gas. The greater the volume of powder, the greater the volume of gas that can be created. But the pressure has to be controlled so it does not burst the barrel.

You could use a small quantity of a fast burning powder and reach maximum safe working pressures. Or use a slower powder with more volume that is well below max pressures but that produces more velocity due to the increased volume of gas produced.

The slower burning the powder, the more you get to use, and the greater the velocity. With the limiting factor being case capacity.

Heard, this makes visualizing the physics of the powder burning sequence much better in my head to help me make a better decision.

Originally Posted by Nathan

Is this Quickload or another internal ballistic modeling software output driving the charts?

This was a chart I generated myself based on multiple sources of data. I did not use Quickload.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

also check at that length that it feeds from the bottom of the magazine. The maximum usable cartridge length with that bullet is the longest one that feeds all the way through the magazine and into the chamber without issue.

Would it make sense to create 10 dummy cartridges at some given COL to see how they all feed from the magazine into my firearm as I manually rack it to cycle through? Or is there a better way to look at it, I know someone (as well as Hodgdon) said 1.100" and someone else said 1.135".

Originally Posted by Unclenick

So, velocity gains fewer FPS per grain as pressure goes up, but pressure gains more PSI per grain as pressure goes up. Another reason extrapolation is hazardous. A lot of people think they are matching pressure when they match velocity with different powders, but that isn't so. Even with the same bullet and powder type, if you match a past velocity with a different lot (or case or primer) and the charge required is lower than you used before to reach that velocity in the same gun with the same bullet, then peak pressure is higher. If it takes more of the new powder lot (or with the new case or primer, but same bullet) then peak pressure is lower than the original load had.

Heard, I had not even considered this and comments like this one are exactly why I knew asking about it in a forum like this will help me get as much critical information as possible. Thank you for explaining this to me.

OP:
I'm starting at 4.8gr and with increments of .1gr, I will make batches up to 5.4gr. Taking into consideration all of your advice along the way, please do post more advice.

[Nathan]

Where did you get Reload Swiss, Lavex, Vectan and other powders not available in the USA? Where are you from? Might help the help….

[P Flados]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

With the 9mm, it is very important to consider seating depth.

As noted above, you will need to "plunk test" a dummy load to make sure your COAL will not result in the bullet hitting the rifling as you chamber the round.

If you need to reduce COAL to pass the plunk test this will increase seating depth.

Because different bullets of the same weight can be different length, substituting bullets can also increase seating depth.

I tried to estimate the impact of increasing seating depth using Quickload. I took a similar load using HS-6 (CFE Pistol is not in the QL database) and adjusted the charge to 6.62 gr to get 33000 psi. I then increased seating depth 0.050" and found pressure to increase to 44800 psi. I then had to drop the charge down to 5.95 gr to get back to 33000 psi.

This above works out real close to a 0.1 gr reduction in charge for every 0.007" increase in seating depth.

[kavkaz]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Where did you get Reload Swiss, Lavex, Vectan and other powders not available in the USA? Where are you from? Might help the help….

I live in the USA, in California. I read through multiple free resources online at this website that lists free loading manuals from various manufacturers/companies. I read through most of them and compared all relevant data and wrote down anything I thought would pertain to my specific components.

I was also able to get in touch with Hodgdon technician who gave me specific data based on the powder (they make) and the bullets I’m using. The data that I plotted isn’t actually tested data, but instead me trying to visualize my notes so I can make a decision. Thanks again.

[kavkaz]

Originally Posted by P Flados

As noted above, you will need to "plunk test" a dummy load to make sure your COAL will not result in the bullet hitting the rifling as you chamber the round.

If you need to reduce COAL to pass the plunk test this will increase seating depth.

Because different bullets of the same weight can be different length, substituting bullets can also increase seating depth.

I started off, based on all the data I have, with dummy rounds (no powder or primer) with COLs of 1.110” and 1.100”. I ran and chambered them in my CZ75 and the 1.100” was noticeably but slightly more silky and smooth to close the slide. I describe it as it felt it was happier chambering the 1.100” than the 1.110”. The longer cartridge had a split second longer slide close time and felt like it was just barely catching something. So naturally I assume the 1.100” is the goal.

[Nathan]

That is the right way to determine OAL. If using a long RN profile, I find 1.15” about right for 124gr RN.