"Cruiser shotguns"... Opinions?

[liliysdad]

I have shot several, never owned one. The reason I have never owned one is that they are all but useless. They have a very limited realm of use, such as a breaching gun, or hiking/backpacking use. Other than that, there is absolutely nothing they do that a conventional shotgun doesnt do better.

[Rich636]

I could see the benefit of turning a hallway corner with a pistol gripped shotgun against your side....it would seem that the muzzle wouldn't lead as far as ahead of you (giving them something to grab). Then again I've never even handled a PG shottie, just trying to imagine it in my head. I still like having a handgun in close to my body for moving around the house, despite it not being as powerful.

edited for spelling

[dixierifleman]

i have a Mossberg 500 Persuader with the pistol grip and 20" barrel and 8 round tube. its real fun to shoot and i keep it within arms range of my bed. i keep it loaded with 2 target load #6 shot, 2 buckshot, 2 slugs, and 2 3" magnum steel shot. i figure most anyone will go down with the target load. ive shot over 50 buckshot and slugs through it in a day and its tolerable

[Gewehr98]

So you've managed to become the Mall Ninja Extraordinaire of all things shotgun by holding one at eye level with just a pistol grip on the receiver and one more on the slide, roughly the same position one would have the shotgun were the buttstock still there, except you've managed to relocate recoil to the wrists and elbows vs. the shoulder, and made for a less steady platform. This is an improvement how?

Likewise, just how much practice does the average shotgun buyer need to do this Ninja-esque hold, vs. simply using a standard buttstock to maintain eye/sight alignment and absorb recoil in something other than their wrists and elbows? Is it something they're going to be proficient with immediately after perusing a gun forum and listening to a guy tell them to buy a PG-only shotgun? Unless they're proficient, they're a liability, and that could end up making them dead.

I can play my Stratocaster behind my back, but it doesn't mean I'm going to tell everybody they need to do so or that it's preferable to the standard way of playing.

BTW, since you seem to be pushing for some sort of superiority, you are correct, I am indeed an ignorant kid, having just retired from a military career with plenty of combat medals in my own shadow box. Been there, done that, got the VA disability rating to boot. It's amazing who one just might bump into on a gun forum, isn't it? So do be careful, and watch the personal attacks and threats, they're not conducive to longevity on a privately-owned website. See you downstream.

[revjen45]

Clyde Barrow might be considered an expert on the use of the compact shotgun in close-up interpersonal dispute type situation, and he didn't use a PGO or give a rat's rectum about legal barrel length or l.o.a. His "whippit" (as in whip it out) A5 had a buttstock cut off as short as the mechanism would allow. He could have used a pump gun cut down to PGO with a bbl cut off even with a 5 shot mag, but he kept a useable (if short) stock. A 12 ga 3" mag has about the same recoil energy as a .375 mag. Would you want to shoot a .375 H&H with a pistol grip?

[Daves-got-guns]

more b/s personal attacks on peoples charactor.... i dont carry concealed carry, and im glad tony that you follow me around like a lost puppy dog, it gives me a fullfilled feeling of satisfaction that "haters" want to chop up w/e i say. I read alot on firearms, and i am no damn expert by any means, i dont claim to be. I do however tryto be insightfull and not hurt anybody elses cause, but your pissing me off. Ok tony, lets pretend your a expert. Go get your pistol grip pump, and come to my town, step to my door and ill step to that same door with my shoulder mounted mossberg 835. We can see just how well your pistol grip gun holds its merrits against a shoulder mounted shotgun. If you dont like what i say then why the hell can't you ignore it? You think im a liberal or something, or do you just got a hardon for me? and i know its not gonna be comfortable, or even worth trying to buy a pistol gripped shotgun, every idiot i see with a pistol grip shotgun thinx they're really hot ****, but most are idiots.

[TonyM1]

more b/s personal attacks on peoples charactor.... i dont carry concealed carry, and im glad tony that you follow me around like a lost puppy dog, it gives me a fullfilled feeling of satisfaction that "haters" want to chop up w/e i say. I read alot on firearms, and i am no damn expert by any means, i dont claim to be. I do however tryto be insightfull and not hurt anybody elses cause, but your pissing me off. Ok tony, lets pretend your a expert. Go get your pistol grip pump, and come to my town, step to my door and ill step to that same door with my shoulder mounted mossberg 835. We can see just how well your pistol grip gun holds its merrits against a shoulder mounted shotgun. If you dont like what i say then why the hell can't you ignore it? You think im a liberal or something, or do you just got a hardon for me? and i know its not gonna be comfortable, or even worth trying to buy a pistol gripped shotgun, every idiot i see with a pistol grip shotgun thinx they're really hot ****, but most are idiots

I most certainly hope you are not talking to me. But I have a feeling that you are since I didn't see any other Tony's in this thread. Even though it is now 4 days after the fact.

First off, if you have no experience with a pistol grip shotgun, why in the hell are you offering an opinion on one? I can read about being an astronaut, should I then be qualified to offer advice to a pilot who is thinking of applying to NASA to become an astronaut?

Secondly and most importantly....are you challenging me to a gun fight? The level of your intelligence is really shown in that statement. I regard that as a blatant threat.

Third, and not so important...more irony of a person that can't spell calling someone else an idiot.

Almost forgot; who's following who? I was in this thread before you and your "advice"

[liliysdad]

more irony of a person that can't spell calling soemone else an idiot

Yes, irony is fun, isnt it?



By the way, I still strongly advise that pistol grips shotguns are south of useless.

[dixierifleman]

i have a pistol grip shotgun that i shoot pretty regularly. that doesnt make me a damn idiot or make me think im hot ****. its a fun gun to have and easier to conceal than a full sized, looks damn cool, and a hell of alot more powerful than any pistol. its about as useful as a S&W 500 or Desert Eagle .50. got somethin bad to say about me? lets hear it

[revjen45]

De gustibus non desputandum. (There is no disputing taste.) If someone likes a pistol grip 12 ga more power to 'em. I'll keep the stock on mine. I also like 211 Steel Reserve, which evoked a puking smiley on another forum. If we all liked the same thing there wouldn't be enough to go around.

[dixierifleman]

211s are my favorite. cant beat the 8.1% alchy in a tall boy. i like my shotguns with stocks too. but i have a pistol grip and its just as fun to shoot.

[TonyM1]

Yes, irony is fun, isnt it?

Touche, although a spelling mistake by virtue of overzealous typing is not quite the same as multiple cases of simply not knowing how to spell and calling others idiots.


The guys that tested the folding pistol grip stock that I first mentioned in the thread are probably idiots trying to be cool too , but at least they did try shooting with it before giving any recommendation.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/C...TestReport.htm

[.351winchester]

Revjen-"Clyde Barrow might be considered an expert on the use of the compact shotgun in close-up interpersonal dispute type situation, and he didn't use a PGO or give a rat's rectum about legal barrel length or l.o.a. His "whippit" (as in whip it out) A5 had a buttstock cut off as short as the mechanism would allow. He could have used a pump gun cut down to PGO with a bbl cut off even with a 5 shot mag, but he kept a useable (if short) stock. A 12 ga 3" mag has about the same recoil energy as a .375 mag. Would you want to shoot a .375 H&H with a pistol grip?"
Very true about his auto (Model 11 and A5) Whipits. He did however have at least one PGO, I believe a Remington 17, Buck had a Winchester 16 ga. I had been researching and writing an article on guns of the motor bandits, but when my computer died last month lost everything (can't find my written notes) and have to start from scratch. Anyhow, B&C resources have a lot of varying accounts when it comes to weapon related details, but I did come across an article years ago I have since been unable to locate (perhaps it was on Oklahombres site). This pistol grip pump, Clyde was able to swing his hip and it would jump into his waiting hand. Another source indicated a zippered compartment on his trousers for a shotgun. This would be the most likely candidate.
Of course, both he and Bonnie's prefered street cannons were the autos with a portion of stock remaining, rubber from an inner tube tacked down forming a loop to slip over the shoulder, under a coat. The weapon was already shouldered. Some reported that this was merely for retention purposes and he would tug the strap loose, but I think he had enough savvy to realize keeping it shouldered was not only faster for the first shot, but far more controllable, quick and accurate. I mean he and an accomplice put 10 slugs into the head and neck of one lawman in Joplin. That's not hipshooting.

Anyway I think his Whipits would make excellent PDW's even today. Maybe better than the Witness Protection 12 ga. 870's with 12.5" barrels and hogleg grips, carried barrel up under strong arm. Instead of simply raising like a whipit, left hand grabs forearm, unsnaps and pulls outward, while the right unsnaps the grip strap. No way in hell I for one would keep a round chambered in such a carry position, so add to that time to rack the slide. I have to admit the Marshal's W.P. shotgun rigs are well designed and extremely concealable, but for me would just as soon have Clyde's configuration. (Off topic, but I always though chopping an auto on either end was disasterous to reliability, whether recoil or gas operated. But would bet my bottom dollar Barrow's ran flawlessly or he would not have used them). Lastly if he were around today, I think he'd favor the Saiga folder, 12 or 20, cut short as the entry model. Actually instead of acquiring the PG and FS parts (though installation would present no problem to him) he'd probably just remove 1/2-2/3 of the standard stock and make a whipit of it.
Clyde is more well known for his Scatterguns (what HE called his sawed off BARs) than what we call scatterguns. But the shotguns really were his bread and butter, they used 20s, 16s, 12s, even a 10ga. Win. Lever action riot gun. Great point you made about Clyde's whipit's, because in fact it's the first thing I think of when talking about PG Pumps.

[.351winchester]

Mokumbear I really think you'd be a lot better off having a stock. I have used PG's and double PG's but always went back to traditional stocks. Some people may be proficient with this configuration, but I can't believe anyone would be better without a stock than with it. I do not understand where the savings in length comes into play other than in storage and concealment. There are stances and positions to use with a riot gun that make it no easier to disarm than a handgun and move anywhere yet bring it to target instantly.
Just telling you my experiences. I never found it painful or extremely innacurate to have pistol grips, but it was too slow in every way, way too slow to be counted on for self defense. For me.

[Daves-got-guns]

tony, i like how you can blast on everything i say, and suddenly everything you say is golden. No its no challenge, cause getting into a gunfight with some idiot online whos probably a 17 year old kid and thinx hes got all the answers to life, aint worth it. Screw this thread, and ill let you think you are king with your pistol grip pump.

[TonyM1]

Well let's see dave, you invite me to come to 'your' town and 'step to your door' with my pg sg vs your standard stock sg and see how well mine holds it's merits against yours? Sure sounds like a call out and a threat to me, and by your own reasoning that would make you an idiot.

Let's look at your profile:

Biography:
I am a borderline redneck from Wa. I am going to alaska soon for work.
Location:
Marysville Washington
Interests:
shooting, hunting messing around.
Occupation:
none at the mome, soon to be a fish cannery worker.

Hmm, I think the 17 year old kid who thinx (sic) he's got all of the answers to life would fit that bio pretty well. Or perhaps you are much older and just living at home with mommy trying to look cool on gun forums with your super cool name 'daves got guns'....really, how many? Obviously a pg sg isn't one of them huh?

Try taking your own advice, if you don't like what I have to say, then just ignore it instead of publicly challenging me to an armed confrontation at your front door...stupid, stupid, stupid...run Forrest, run.

[OBIWAN]

Wow...won't be long before this one gets locked

I am on record as not being a big fan of the shotgun for defensive use...I think there are better options today

that being said....

I can't see any advantage to a pistol grip other than shortening the overall length for transport(and looking cool)

For the first I would suggest a folding stock of some kind...for the second...well.......never mind

Many years ago I did some informal experimentation with a moss500

Nobody liked shooting it with the PG and using the sites

Firing it from the hip had some serious CDI factor, but there was a marked tendency to shoot high...we found "aiming" at the bad guys feet to work ok

Most all shotguns have too long a stock for serious defensive use

But removing it entirely just causes new problems

I put a youth stock on my 590 and it is just about perfect...except that it is still a shotgun

[mustangdan1963]

ok, can't leave this one alone...ealier on this thread, I stated that I had a PG shotty in .410, and that I believe they have their place. I also stated that I prefer to shoot full stock shotguns whenever possible. That being said. I bought the PG shotgun close to 20 years ago, and have used it regularily ever since. I have used a wheelchair since I was 20, and pushing through the woods with a full sized shotgun is no easy feat. the PG with a sling makes a world of difference, and is great for squirrel or rabbit hunting. At this point I usually hunt with a pistol, but the old PG .410 still gets used several times a year. So, again I say everything has a place, what is less than ideal for some may be just the ticket for someone else. Can't we all just get along?

[Mannlicher]

I am sure that by now, some one has told you to NOT hold it up as if it were full stocked, and sight down the barrel. If ya do, you will know almost immediately that I was truthing you.

[Mokumbear]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice.

I am not quite sure what got everybody so stirred up.
My experience here is that while people will debate on technical issues,
the members tend to treat each other politely.

I certainly hope we can continue in that spirit.
It's one of the things that I really like about the Firing Line forums.

Anyway, after so many came out against the "cruiser models", I am currently
interested in checking out the Remington 870 Express® Synthetic 18".

I am going to stop by my local gun shop when I have time and see
how well it fits me and if I feel comfortable handling it.

[dixierifleman]

Manlincher, ive shot mine like that, its not bad

[guntotin_fool]

I see PG shotties as having a very very defined space in the useful realm.

First as a under the counter gun. if you are in a small store, like a jewelry store or pawn shop or a liquor store, look how much room there is between the counter and the shelves or walls. This is where a PG shottie makes sense.

Entry team. as a breaching gun or a secondary weapon for a team member. (even tho, now you will see most of these at least using an 11 inch pull stock for better recoil control.

PPD, AKA executive protection, the need for a big gun to show up immediately from a concealed place when the poo really hits the rotating ventilation device.

I used to use a folder in my old truck for a truck gun as it was small and able to fit where i needed it. after using it for a bit, I have gone to a speedstock pistol grip/with a 12 inch pull. very useful, very strong, and easier to control recoil with.

[Slugthrower]

+1 On the Copstock , wire folder, made by Knoxx.

They claim the recoil reduction to be 54% or better. Personally , it feels more like 35-40% reduction. Either way, I can handle shooting full power buck and slugs through it with no pain. The reduction in recoil is significant. Try one , you may like it. To me it is the best of both worlds. Want more recoil reduction and don't mind a longer OAL then maybe the SpecOps stock is your ticket.

[eerudd]

got to say...painful with 00 buck and slugs !!! my wrist hurts like a mofo

WORD