44 Magnum vs 45 Colt Question

Firepower! · December 6, 2009, 01:40 AM

Hi
I would like to know if 45 Colt can match the power of 44 Magnum. I have heard that when loaded to its potential, the 45 Colt can match power that of 44 Magnum. However, the second part of my question is what happens if you hot load a 44 Magnum, can a hot loaded 45 Colt match that as well?

Thanks

hickstick_10 · December 6, 2009, 02:22 AM

No it cannot.

Some guns MAY be able to handle slightly elevated 45 colts with no detrimental damage or wear, but you run the risk of one of your hot loads ending up in older 45 colt gun or one that was designed after it.

This would be bad, very bad

44 mag will throw heavier lead faster, trying to match the weight of the slug and the velocity with a 45 colt is asking for premature wear of your revolver, or outright destruction of other 45 colts in your possesion.

If you over load a 44 mag bad things happen to(case sticking, ruptures, case failures, gas pitting on the bolt face, extruding primers around the firing pin resulting in breakage, bulged chamber, throat erosion, gas cutting, cracked forcing cones, revolver frame stretching and so forth and so on), and you most definately cannot mach an overloaded 45 to an overloaded 44 your gun will be damaged.

Some rugers can handle slightly elevated loads according to some reloading manuals but they come no where close to 44 mag.

buy or borrow a reloading manual

HootG · December 6, 2009, 03:18 AM

John Linebaugh on the .45 Colt

Firepower! · December 6, 2009, 03:41 AM

Please comment on these two link below:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-10345.html

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-Hunters.htm

They seem to suggest or atleast try to that its a match for 44 or better in power.

Thanks

Lost Sheep · December 6, 2009, 04:31 AM

Modern 45 Colts throwing a .451" diameter slug have the potential to throw 16.2% more weight in similarly shaped bullets than the 44 magnum.

(.429 ^ 3 vs .451 ^ 3)

The 45 Colt case was designed for Black Powder, of course, so is sized accordingly. Dick Casull knew that the far larger extra capacity of the 45 Colt case over the 44 Magnum case would allow a much larger powder charge if the case would take the pressure. As long as you don't load the balloon head 45 Colt cases, but use the solid head cases, you can push the pressures quite high. Just be careful not to drop one of Dick's loads into a Ruger Blackhawk or even a T-C Contender.

Typical energies for popular rounds:
400/500 -- 45 Colt
570 ---------.357 - Magnum
960 --------- .45 colt
1040 -------- 44 Magnum
1100 ---------. 41 Magnum
1315 - ------- 480 Ruger (shorter version of 475 Linebaugh, uses exactly the same bullets)
1828 - ------- .475 Linebaugh
1925 --------- 454 Casull

and remember, heavier throw weights mean lots more momentum. Energy is proportional to mass and the square of velocity. Momentum is proportional to mass and the velocity, simple. And while energy shreds flesh, it's momentum that breaks bone. On dangerous game at close range, you need to break bone.

So, the conventional wisdom is that you can load 45 Colt a little bit lower than 44 Magnum in energy. But that same 45 Colt load that does not quite equa the enegy of a 44 Magnum blows past it in momentum by a wide margin.

Dick Casull loaded 45 Colt casings to the same power levels as the Casull power levels in the Mid-to-late '70. But those were not fired in 45 Colt Blackhawks. They were fired in Casull's own guns (the late '70's equivalent of the Freedom Arms Model 83) I suspect even Rugers would not survive that stress.

Then there is the steel. Revolvers chambered for Casulls are made of sterner stuff than those chambered for 45 Colt or 44 Magnum, and there is a lot more steel around the smaller 44 Magnum chambers than around the 45 Colt chambers (given the same cylinder size and six chambers per)

To summarize: 45 Colt in modern brass can surpass the 44 Magnum in momentum, but not in energy, but it is pretty close by either measure. But don't do it in guns not designed for it.

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

Lost Sheep

Firepower! · December 6, 2009, 06:07 AM

So, for example, a 45 LC by old Intercontinental Arms should use which ammo, that is safe to fire yet yields reasonable power?
Thanks

hickstick_10 · December 6, 2009, 06:47 AM

Firepower!

One link doesnt explain much as its mostly a review on a ruger revolver and the other link is a web forum on people discussing there hand loads, IMHO your best served by following reloading manuals or speaking with the manufacture direct.

HootGs link on john linabaughs comments make it pretty clear what is possible with a 45, just dont drop one in an uberti or something similar. I did forget about linabaughs custom sixguns which are hellishly strong though.

Also what some neglect to mention even if there wicked hot handloads dont cause a malfunction is the state of there gun as time goes on. I'd definately have some misgivings about creep with a 5 ton backpressure handload on my gun.

DiscoRacing · December 6, 2009, 07:56 AM

I can tell ya for sure that my HOT loaded colt wont do what my three HOT loaded 44s can do........but thats just me.

jhenry · December 6, 2009, 09:20 AM

Assuming intelligent handloading, and weapons able to withstand the loads, the answer is yes, the .45 Colt can outshine the .44 Mag. with ease. What I am saying is that once you remove the constraints of platform, the answer is yes. Models for this type of load exist and are available, but you better know what you are about. The easiest way to get bigbore performance is to get a .44 Magnum. Above that the easiest thing to do is to get a 454, 460, or some such hand cannon. I find them a bit much at full roar for anything other than a cylider or two. The .44 will get most folks attention, but I can tolerate it for extended periods.

CraigC · December 6, 2009, 10:21 AM

The Linebaugh article is really the first and last word on the subject. In strong guns the .45Colt can indeed match the .44Mag. However, .44Mag data has gotten better in recent years and the King of Sixguns still holds an edge.

SwampYankee · December 6, 2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Also what some neglect to mention even if there wicked hot handloads dont cause a malfunction is the state of there gun as time goes on.

Apparently, the Ruger Redhawk .45 Colts and .44 Magnum undergo the same heat treating and metallurgical processes. In such a case as this, it would be extremely unlikely to prematurely wear out a .45 Colt Redhawk. This is distinct from S&W, who do not give their .45 Colts the strength that they give their .44 Magnums.

If I really wanted something to blow holes in the backside of an elephant, I'd buy a .454 Casull and not waste my time on either .45 Colt or .44 Magnum. But there aren't too many elephants in my part of the woods....

HootG · December 6, 2009, 11:24 AM

John Linebaugh on the "weak" S&W 25-5 .45 Colt

SwampYankee · December 6, 2009, 02:50 PM

From the above link:

"While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake."

I've got a gorgeous 25-5 in nickel. It's just too valuable for me to goof around with. I have no problem pushing my Redhawk, but it is built like a tank through-and-through.

Thanks for the reference!

Webleymkv · December 6, 2009, 03:19 PM

When shot from the same platform, the .45 Colt cannot match the .44 Magnum in terms of power. The chief reason for this is the thickness of the chamber walls. While a .45 Colt when handloaded or loaded by makers such as Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or Grizzly can outperorm a run-of-the mill .44 Magnum, it's not an apples to apples comparison because they're not designed to be shot from the same guns. Most .44 Magnum loadings are designed to be safely shot in any .44 Magnum gun made while these hot-loaded .45 Colts are designed to be shot only from certain guns like Rugers, Freedom Arms, and Thompson Centers. If you use a .44 Magnum gun of the same strength, it can withstand higher pressures and thusly give you more power than even the hot .45 Colt loadings. This is evidenced by Buffalo Bore's Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ 340grn loading which is only safe to shoot (and will only fit in the chambers) of certain guns. This loading outperforms anything commercially loaded in .45 Colt and has muzzle energy similar to that of some centerfire rifles (this loading delivers a 340grn bullet at 1478fps for 1649 ft lbs of muzzle energy) but it can only be used in guns similar to those that are safe with the .45 Colt +P loadings (Buffalo Bore tests it from a Ruger Redhawk).

What does this all mean in the real world? Not really all that much. I very seriously doubt that anything shot with a hot-loaded round of either cartridge would be able to tell the difference. The only advantages I see of one cartridge over the other is that .44 Magnum will give you markedly better performance in what are typically considered to be "weaker" guns like S&W revolvers and .44 Magnum ammunition is more widely available than .45 Colt ammo that delivers similar performance. For a handloader with the right gun however, it's really six in one hand and half a dozen in the other.

garryc · December 6, 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

So, for example, a 45 LC by old Intercontinental Arms should use which ammo, that is safe to fire yet yields reasonable power?
Thanks

Pretty much as production guns go the magnum 45 colt would be a Blackhawk, Freedom arms and Tompson Center Contender. I wouldn't do it with anything else just to be safe. International Arms eventually became Interarms and sold the Dakota. The pistols I've fired were made by Hammerelli before production came to the U.S. The Dakota, and I don't know if that is what you have, is a strong pistol. It has peacemaker type lockwork. Nice guns actually.

My advise, if you want to beat on a revolver, beat on a Ruger, it WILL take it.

As far as the loads, the 45 colt can be loaded up far above factory. Really though, it only shines above the 44 mag with cast bullets in the 300-340 grain range. The thing is, with those bullets you don't need to take pressures to the wall, A 310 grain 45 bullet with a flat meplat at about 950 fps will punch through a deer end to end, seen it, done it.

seasterl · December 6, 2009, 09:33 PM

The Linebaugh article was a great read! It's too bad he didn't mention anything about the Ruger Vaquero. I think considering one of those as they seem like they represent the 45 Colt cartridge the best. IMO, the Blackhawk is more of a "magnum" cartridge pistol with those adjustable sights needed for longer range. Is there any definitive information about the strength and potential of the Vaquero?

garryc · December 6, 2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

The Linebaugh article was a great read! It's too bad he didn't mention anything about the Ruger Vaquero. I think considering one of those as they seem like they represent the 45 Colt cartridge the best. IMO, the Blackhawk is more of a "magnum" cartridge pistol with those adjustable sights needed for longer range. Is there any definitive information about the strength and potential of the Vaquero?

The old Vaquero had basically the same frame and cylinder dimentions as the blackhawk. The new one is lighter, more like a peacemaker. Note that the new one is not made in 44 mag

Pathfinder45 · December 8, 2009, 12:08 AM

If you're looking at it from a power perspective, 2 out of 3 shooters are better off with the 44 magnum. If you're a gun connoisseur and reloader the 45 Colt will likely be more satifying. I'm a 45 Colt guy and will likely never own a 44 magnum. Yet I will be the first to tell you that you probably don't want to tinker with cylinder throats, so just get a 44 magnum and be done with it. If you want a cowboy gun, then get a 45 Colt or .44-40. So, if you want to keep it simple; get a 44 magnum.

darkgael · December 8, 2009, 06:44 AM

Firepower: There is a related thread in the Handloading -Reloading section - begun November 30 - asking a similar question regarding the 45 Colt and the 454 Casull.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=386116
More to read.
Pete

Firepower! · December 8, 2009, 07:01 AM

Thank you guys. I really appreciated your educating responses.

December 6, 2009, 01:40 AM	#1
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	44 Magnum vs 45 Colt Question Hi I would like to know if 45 Colt can match the power of 44 Magnum. I have heard that when loaded to its potential, the 45 Colt can match power that of 44 Magnum. However, the second part of my question is what happens if you hot load a 44 Magnum, can a hot loaded 45 Colt match that as well? Thanks

December 6, 2009, 04:31 AM	#5
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	It depends- Momentum or Energy? Modern 45 Colts throwing a .451" diameter slug have the potential to throw 16.2% more weight in similarly shaped bullets than the 44 magnum. (.429 ^ 3 vs .451 ^ 3) The 45 Colt case was designed for Black Powder, of course, so is sized accordingly. Dick Casull knew that the far larger extra capacity of the 45 Colt case over the 44 Magnum case would allow a much larger powder charge if the case would take the pressure. As long as you don't load the balloon head 45 Colt cases, but use the solid head cases, you can push the pressures quite high. Just be careful not to drop one of Dick's loads into a Ruger Blackhawk or even a T-C Contender. Typical energies for popular rounds: 400/500 -- 45 Colt 570 ---------.357 - Magnum 960 --------- .45 colt 1040 -------- 44 Magnum 1100 ---------. 41 Magnum 1315 - ------- 480 Ruger (shorter version of 475 Linebaugh, uses exactly the same bullets) 1828 - ------- .475 Linebaugh 1925 --------- 454 Casull and remember, heavier throw weights mean lots more momentum. Energy is proportional to mass and the square of velocity. Momentum is proportional to mass and the velocity, simple. And while energy shreds flesh, it's momentum that breaks bone. On dangerous game at close range, you need to break bone. So, the conventional wisdom is that you can load 45 Colt a little bit lower than 44 Magnum in energy. But that same 45 Colt load that does not quite equa the enegy of a 44 Magnum blows past it in momentum by a wide margin. Dick Casull loaded 45 Colt casings to the same power levels as the Casull power levels in the Mid-to-late '70. But those were not fired in 45 Colt Blackhawks. They were fired in Casull's own guns (the late '70's equivalent of the Freedom Arms Model 83) I suspect even Rugers would not survive that stress. Then there is the steel. Revolvers chambered for Casulls are made of sterner stuff than those chambered for 45 Colt or 44 Magnum, and there is a lot more steel around the smaller 44 Magnum chambers than around the 45 Colt chambers (given the same cylinder size and six chambers per) To summarize: 45 Colt in modern brass can surpass the 44 Magnum in momentum, but not in energy, but it is pretty close by either measure. But don't do it in guns not designed for it. Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post. Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web. Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere. Lost Sheep

December 6, 2009, 09:20 AM	#9
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	Assuming intelligent handloading, and weapons able to withstand the loads, the answer is yes, the .45 Colt can outshine the .44 Mag. with ease. What I am saying is that once you remove the constraints of platform, the answer is yes. Models for this type of load exist and are available, but you better know what you are about. The easiest way to get bigbore performance is to get a .44 Magnum. Above that the easiest thing to do is to get a 454, 460, or some such hand cannon. I find them a bit much at full roar for anything other than a cylider or two. The .44 will get most folks attention, but I can tolerate it for extended periods. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

December 8, 2009, 12:08 AM	#18
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	six of one; half a dozen of the other If you're looking at it from a power perspective, 2 out of 3 shooters are better off with the 44 magnum. If you're a gun connoisseur and reloader the 45 Colt will likely be more satifying. I'm a 45 Colt guy and will likely never own a 44 magnum. Yet I will be the first to tell you that you probably don't want to tinker with cylinder throats, so just get a 44 magnum and be done with it. If you want a cowboy gun, then get a 45 Colt or .44-40. So, if you want to keep it simple; get a 44 magnum.

December 8, 2009, 06:44 AM	#19
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Additional reading Firepower: There is a related thread in the Handloading -Reloading section - begun November 30 - asking a similar question regarding the 45 Colt and the 454 Casull. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=386116 More to read. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

December 6, 2009, 02:22 AM	#2
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	No it cannot. Some guns MAY be able to handle slightly elevated 45 colts with no detrimental damage or wear, but you run the risk of one of your hot loads ending up in older 45 colt gun or one that was designed after it. This would be bad, very bad 44 mag will throw heavier lead faster, trying to match the weight of the slug and the velocity with a 45 colt is asking for premature wear of your revolver, or outright destruction of other 45 colts in your possesion. If you over load a 44 mag bad things happen to(case sticking, ruptures, case failures, gas pitting on the bolt face, extruding primers around the firing pin resulting in breakage, bulged chamber, throat erosion, gas cutting, cracked forcing cones, revolver frame stretching and so forth and so on), and you most definately cannot mach an overloaded 45 to an overloaded 44 your gun will be damaged. Some rugers can handle slightly elevated loads according to some reloading manuals but they come no where close to 44 mag. buy or borrow a reloading manual

December 6, 2009, 03:18 AM	#3
HootG Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2006 Location: Mississippi Posts: 14	John Linebaugh on the .45 Colt

December 6, 2009, 03:41 AM	#4
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Please comment on these two link below: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-10345.html http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-Hunters.htm They seem to suggest or atleast try to that its a match for 44 or better in power. Thanks

December 6, 2009, 06:07 AM	#6
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	So, for example, a 45 LC by old Intercontinental Arms should use which ammo, that is safe to fire yet yields reasonable power? Thanks

December 6, 2009, 06:47 AM	#7
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	Firepower! One link doesnt explain much as its mostly a review on a ruger revolver and the other link is a web forum on people discussing there hand loads, IMHO your best served by following reloading manuals or speaking with the manufacture direct. HootGs link on john linabaughs comments make it pretty clear what is possible with a 45, just dont drop one in an uberti or something similar. I did forget about linabaughs custom sixguns which are hellishly strong though. Also what some neglect to mention even if there wicked hot handloads dont cause a malfunction is the state of there gun as time goes on. I'd definately have some misgivings about creep with a 5 ton backpressure handload on my gun.

December 6, 2009, 07:56 AM	#8
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,640	I can tell ya for sure that my HOT loaded colt wont do what my three HOT loaded 44s can do........but thats just me.

December 6, 2009, 10:21 AM	#10
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	The Linebaugh article is really the first and last word on the subject. In strong guns the .45Colt can indeed match the .44Mag. However, .44Mag data has gotten better in recent years and the King of Sixguns still holds an edge.

December 6, 2009, 11:24 AM	#12
HootG Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2006 Location: Mississippi Posts: 14	John Linebaugh on the "weak" S&W 25-5 .45 Colt

December 6, 2009, 02:50 PM	#13
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	From the above link: "While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake." I've got a gorgeous 25-5 in nickel. It's just too valuable for me to goof around with. I have no problem pushing my Redhawk, but it is built like a tank through-and-through. Thanks for the reference!

December 6, 2009, 03:19 PM	#14
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	When shot from the same platform, the .45 Colt cannot match the .44 Magnum in terms of power. The chief reason for this is the thickness of the chamber walls. While a .45 Colt when handloaded or loaded by makers such as Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or Grizzly can outperorm a run-of-the mill .44 Magnum, it's not an apples to apples comparison because they're not designed to be shot from the same guns. Most .44 Magnum loadings are designed to be safely shot in any .44 Magnum gun made while these hot-loaded .45 Colts are designed to be shot only from certain guns like Rugers, Freedom Arms, and Thompson Centers. If you use a .44 Magnum gun of the same strength, it can withstand higher pressures and thusly give you more power than even the hot .45 Colt loadings. This is evidenced by Buffalo Bore's Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ 340grn loading which is only safe to shoot (and will only fit in the chambers) of certain guns. This loading outperforms anything commercially loaded in .45 Colt and has muzzle energy similar to that of some centerfire rifles (this loading delivers a 340grn bullet at 1478fps for 1649 ft lbs of muzzle energy) but it can only be used in guns similar to those that are safe with the .45 Colt +P loadings (Buffalo Bore tests it from a Ruger Redhawk). What does this all mean in the real world? Not really all that much. I very seriously doubt that anything shot with a hot-loaded round of either cartridge would be able to tell the difference. The only advantages I see of one cartridge over the other is that .44 Magnum will give you markedly better performance in what are typically considered to be "weaker" guns like S&W revolvers and .44 Magnum ammunition is more widely available than .45 Colt ammo that delivers similar performance. For a handloader with the right gun however, it's really six in one hand and half a dozen in the other.

December 6, 2009, 09:33 PM	#16
seasterl Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Posts: 69	The Linebaugh article was a great read! It's too bad he didn't mention anything about the Ruger Vaquero. I think considering one of those as they seem like they represent the 45 Colt cartridge the best. IMO, the Blackhawk is more of a "magnum" cartridge pistol with those adjustable sights needed for longer range. Is there any definitive information about the strength and potential of the Vaquero?

December 8, 2009, 07:01 AM	#20
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Thank you guys. I really appreciated your educating responses.