What are the advantages of .45?

[Dust Monkey]

Why did the FBI switch from 9MM to .40 ?

Because in Miami 2 agents, armed with handguns, decided to go up against some very bad guys armed with rifles. The FBI decided to blame the 9mm round instead of the agents, which IMO were partialy at fault. The 9mm round in question worked as designed.

Thhe FBI then went to the 10mm. And some agents couldn't handle the stout round. So the 10mm Kurtz was born.

[Texas Man]

Hey, Firepower!, quit posting .45 vs. 9mm crap, if you want more information from TFL look into older posts, all the points have already been made many times before.

[JohnKSa]

Now someone remind me, Why did the FBI switch from 9MM to .40 ?

They switched from 9mm to 10mm and then later to .40S&W which didn't exist at the time the switch to the 10mm happened.

The reason they switched was because they examined a multiply fatal encounter involving several agents and two criminals in which over 100 rounds were fired and chose to focus not on all the rounds that missed, on the tactics or weaponry employed or on the mistakes made but rather on the performance of a single bullet.

The round was a 9mm round which traveled through the criminal's upper arm (about 4 inches of penetration on a diagonal trajectory through the arm), impacted the side of the chest already expanded and then penetrated another 9 or 10 inches dealing the criminal a fatal wound. Medical experts have stated that the criminal would not have survived even had immediate medical attention been provided.

However, in spite of the circumstances, the decision was made that since the bullet had stopped short of penetrating the heart that the round had not performed adequately (which might have ended the deadly encounter faster) and the FBI began trials to look for a replacement caliber.

A person with a slightly different agenda might have just as rationally concluded that a high-capacity 9mm in the hands of Gordon McNeill would have ended the fight faster. McNeill was ideally positioned with good cover and scored several telling hits early in the fight but was neutralized when his revolver rapidly ran dry and he was unable to reload it due to a wounded hand. Had he been armed with a high-capacity 9mm (about all that was available in high-capacity in those days) he probably would have been able to end the fight before either gunman exited their vehicle. At the least he would have been able to reload more easily and wouldn't have been helpless when the gunman approached him and shot him in the neck, paralyzing him for the rest of the encounter.

[Firepower!]

Texas man,
Before making flagrant remarks you should read the OP. Perhaps you should stop posting crap that doesnt make sense.

I never asked 9v45 question. I simply wanted to know about 45 advantages. Read the title for Gods sake, and stop lecturing as if you are a MOD. If this thread has flaws Admins and Mods have the power to close or delete it. we as members should not worry about policing the forum.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by HisSoldier

Anymore with this kind of question I start off wondering if the OP is for real, no offense. I can't imagine many questions have been asked more than those concerning 9MM verses .45 ACP.
If you like and carry 9MM you are probably sure it's adequate, if you like and carry .45 you are probably sure the 9MM is not. Most people will never have true empirically based reasons either way, so whatever you believe in is the answer for you.

HisSoldier,

Truer words were never posted.

I will claim to be an exception, though. I prefer the 45 ACP, then 357 mag, but recognize that the 9mm is a good round and a decent manstopper in its own right. I would prefer the 500 Special at 350 grains and 800 fps if it were available in a launch platform I could handle/carry easily enough.

Everything is a compromise and I would gladly choose 9mm where the tactical situation is appropriate for it. (Main factors, carryability, concealability, level of threat, availability of backup, my ability with the cartridge/platform combination and availability of a launch platform among them)

Candidates available for consideration that I consider to be valid for consideration:

22 rf or 22 magnum
25 acp
32 acp
32 mag
380 acp
9x18 (makarov)
9mm
357 mag
40 S&W
45 acp
41 mag
45 Colt
500 S&W Special
44 mag
480 Ruger
454 Casull
475 Linebaugh
500 S&W Magnum

for example, entering a danger zone with backup far away and multiple opponents, would call for a 9mm or 40 S&W with high capacity. Concealability concerns would sway me to the 9mm.

In bear country, with no concealability issues, I would lean toward the 475 Linebaugh or 500 S&W, whatever I could handle best. Platforms available are limited in those power levels. If I wanted double action, there is only one choice in the 500 Mag. (As it is, I went for the smaller bullet, the 454 Casull because I like the lauch platform better, though I wish Ruger would produce a Super Redhawk 5.5" or 6.5" 500 S&W mag.)

Every chambering/caliber/platform has its place, its performance envelope. Use what is appropriate for your situation. 9mm has its place. 45 ACP/45 GAP have their place. No one caliber is appropriate for all situations. Every one has at least one situation where it is the best choice.

We choose to put our money where we believe we hit the most situations high enough on the preference scale. Those blessed with enough money (or flexibility in our administration) to have many choices and the foresight to predict our needs every day have many choices. If limited to a single chambering and platform, you have to trade off what you can.

I have rambled on enough. The point I am trying to make is that, beyond personal preference, there are universal truths that we can all agree on: There are times when anyone's preferred choice in handgun to meet ALL predictable criteria might be any chambering. Even a die-hard 45 ACP fan might prefer a 380 or 9mm. And a 9mm fan might pick the 40 or 45. But when the excrement hits the ventilator (S--- hits the fan) you have what your brought and you do the best you can.

No precoceived notions. They bring no benefit to the thinking man (or woman) but a savings in thinking time.

Lost Sheep.

Disclaimer: The foregoing is all personal opinion and you may feel free to disagree as strongly as you wish. I have thought it through as thoroughly as I am able with my limited experience and native intelligence. I am open to fresh thought on the subject.

[SlowDog]

OK...so everyone else has piped in so I guess it's my turn. I have been in the situation where I have seen the difference between 45 acp & 9mm.

There is talk of bullet advances in 9mm. There has also been advances in every other caliber on the market. As someone who can carry whatever he wants for self defense and with hands on real life experience I agree with the previous post that use what you bring proficiently. Just make sure you practice plenty.

As I used to tell my men..."Pay attention to detail, It'll save your life and bring you home." That being said, since I don't have a duty weapon anymore assigned to me and I only carry what I prefer to carry my mainstay is a 1911 45 acp. Remember those new bullet advances? Speer Gold Dot expands to an average of .74 and has excellent weight retention. My back up is a 380. Go figure huh? But again with bullet advancement and ease of concealment I feel comfortable carrying a 15 shot 380. Warm weather only. And before anyone starts railing me for using a 380 over a 9mm. They are the same caliber just 1mm shorter. And with those great bullet advances I feel OK with a 380 plus it happens to be the caliber of the gun I like as a back up/warm weather light clothing gun.

As to the real life experience. I worked on a Drug Suppression Team in South & Central America for several years and have seen every caliber known to man used. I have unfortunately seen what they do. And yes they all kill. But, alas, the 45acp with jhp ammo is by far the most devastating round from a conventional easily carried side arm. Take this for what it's worth.....just sayin....

[collector rob]

It's cheaper than a .50GI

[Mike Irwin]

"Now someone remind me, Why did the FBI switch from 9MM to .40 ?"

Because they had to blame someTHING (not someONE) for an abysmal failure of planning and tactics.

The Winchester Silvertip that hit the one gunman caused a fatal wound. As with ANY gunshot would from ANY caliber, however, a fatal wound isn't always instantly fatal. Platt (I think it was him) still had enough fight in him to take advantage of the FBI's tactical failures and do a huge amount of damage.

FBI by inference and activity blamed the 9mm round for the resulting agent deaths.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Oddly enough, within 10 years of the Miami Fiasco, followed by the "Let's adopt the 10mm fiasco," FBI was once again issuing 9mm handguns.

[jontz]

Maybe I'm simple minded, It just seems to me that a bigger hole just has to be better.

Big holes don't stop people instantly. I've heard from several different law enforcement agencies, first hand, that someone shot in the heart can still function for up to 30 seconds before collapsing. That time is even longer with a lung or gut shot. The ONLY thing that will stop someone in their tracks is a direct hit on the central nervous system. That takes shot placement. Shot placement takes practice. There is no replacement. Your choice of caliber should reflect which one you shoot better on a consistent basis.

So I guess to the OPs question, the .45 makes a bigger hole. Bigger holes make some people feel better. That's the advantage.

[45Gunner]

My caliber gun is a ________. I'm a real expert at shooting paper targets.

I have been in _______ actual gun battles. I have practiced emergency reloads ______number of times and tactical reloads_________number of times.

I have shot at _________number of moving targets with a predefined target area.

I know that if I strategically place my ________ caliber bullet, I will take down my attacker. I also know that if I miss the predefined target area with my _____caliber bullet, I will most likely not neutralize my attacker.

I also know that a bullet of _____caliber will penetrate a soft tissue mass and cause a body to bleed, along with causing other injuries.

Hmmmm. It seems that no matter what I use to fill in the blank, the end premise is still the same. Now, will someone please tell me what all this discussion is about so that it makes some sense to those of us that have heard it a gazillion times before.

[Ricky]

"The ONLY thing that will stop someone in their tracks is a direct hit on the central nervous system."

Wouldn't a bigger hole give you a little more room for error?
And if you miss the CNS then more tissue damage will facilitate faster bleed out.
I still like bigger holes.

[JohnKSa]

Wouldn't a bigger hole give you a little more room for error?

Yes. If you're talking about 9mm vs. .45 then depending on how you model your target using the larger bullet will improve your chances of hitting something by around 0.05% or so (maybe 5 hits more out of 1000 shots).

And if you miss the CNS then more tissue damage will facilitate faster bleed out.

Sounds good until you realize just how little tissue a handgun bullet in the service pistol class damages--regardless of caliber. From a practical standpoint no one has been able to demonstrate that it makes a difference in terms of more rapid incapacitation.

I still like bigger holes.

There you go. Buy what you want--that's what most people do anyway. These threads are primarily a bunch of people trying to come up with a good reason to justify their personal preconceptions and preferences.

[Officer's Match]

While I do like the larger diameter, it's the greater mass that I appreciate in the 45.

[JohnKSa]

While I do like the larger diameter, it's the greater mass that I appreciate in the 45.

It's important to have the greater mass. Without it, the greater frontal area would mean that you would have much reduced penetration compared to other common SD rounds.

[jfrey]

Is it OK just to say I like the .45ACP better, practice with it a lot, and it makes me feel confident when I carry one? The 9mm is a good round, I just prefer the .45 instead. Higher end 1911's are also a lot more pleasing to the eye than a standard black 9mm.

[Kyo]

jfrey, i think confidence is a big part of the self defense issue. why have the gun if you aren't confident with it, or comfortable with it? Same with the caliber imo.
Also I agree with the more mass theory because it is more mass to expand inside the body when the bullet strikes.
115g vs 230g. That is twice as much mass. That doesn't mean it will expand twice as big, what it does mean is that there is more to expand in any direction.

[dinsmore83]

for me, in a full size, I like 9mm capacity, but in compact and smaller, I shoot the 45 just as well, and sometimes better and often the number of rounds is only different by 2 or 3 in a magazine, so I'd go with a 45. all in all though, I find both rounds satisfactory

[Ricky]

To me the 9mm makes more sense in a compact pistol, reasonable # of rounds, less recoil. Of course, I'm in Ca. where we can't legally have more than 10 round mags. Might as well make them big and meaty.

[gunrobot]

to me? peace of mind that I'm using the largest most popular and easily obtained caliber in this country.

[Nisei]

To me, an advantage to using the .45 is the nice push I get instead of the snap of smaller calibers in terms of recoil.

To me, my hand gets tired slower with a .45 because of the recoil.

Any bullet is destructive. The .45 in most cases is the most destructive of all common handgun calibers. Of course, now days anything can be "common" to somebody...

Off topic point: People will debunk every advantage to anything with a technicality or misinformation. When I wanted to know the advantage of a .45 to a 9mm/.357/.38/.40 I borrowed/rented weapons and fired them at the range. To me, the choice was pretty clear.

The best and rewarding information you can get is actually acquiring the information yourself. Go rent/borrow handguns. Buy a box of .45 and whatever you want to compare it to and sit at the range for a few hours and ask to borrow other's weapons. Some will say no, some will say yes. In the end you'll get a better answer than trying to surf through a thread that eventually turns into a caliber war. Those that continue to bicker about which caliber is better should practice more. "Amateurs talk hardware, Professionals talk software."

Remember OP, field work is always more beneficial than text work.

- Hiroshi

[Ricky]

I just recently purchased my new Colt Commander .45. My 23 year old son and I took it to the range last Sunday and fired it as well as my .40 Glock. We were shooting 165 gr. in the .40 and 230 gr. in the .45 both were WWB. No question about it, the .45 had more recoil, not the push that so many people mention, It wasn't uncomfortable for either one of us. Neither is the .40 but we both thought there was more recoil from the .45

[BlueTrain]

So there's more recoil. So what. I've mentioned this before in several threads and now I'll say it again.

How many rounds do you all carry with your handgun anyway? I realize that police equipped with high capacity handguns carry something like 50 rounds with them these days but do you? Not so many police carry .45s, or so I read, but they most likely don't carry so much. Let's say two spare magazines. That was the army standard (21 rounds). If you go to the range and shoot more than your "basic load" for your actual carry gun, then two things happen, in theory. One is that you begin to forget you only have limited ammunition. Two, which is my point here, you begin to think your combination of pistol and caliber was a bad choice because your hand hurts. Or maybe something like that.

But I doubt that happens to most of you but a few complaints show up now and then. You could always shoot that particular gun and cartridge less or use a lighter load. The first option was what I did when I had a 4" Model 29 (in my Elmer Keith days) or my Colt Officer's ACP (in my Combat Handguns days). Right now I have beside me my new (yes, new) skinny barrel Model 10, which probably makes this my Ed McGivern days.

With the Model 29, by the way, I only used magnum loads and I always figured I was good enough after the first six rounds.

[N.H. Yankee]

There's been plenty of instances of someone getting a chest full of 45's and still in the fight, and these weren't FMJ. Bullet placement is the king of all, thats why some perps are shot dead in their tracks with the diminutive 25acp. Yes I would rather have a 9mm or bigger and wouldn't consider carrying a 25, they have performed 1 shot stops. I feel 9mm on up will do the job, IF the shooter does his or hers.

[Officer's Match]

Call it psychological if you wish, I'll stick with the 45:

[Ricky]

Looks to me like those quarter size mushrooms would do a LOT of damage!