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Old December 25, 2016, 02:58 AM   #26
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Since I Rockwell test, not just guess, look for changes in accuracy,
(Squeeze between fingers, guess if annealing produced better or worse groups without scientific standards, ZERO other variables, etc)

What I have found & can prove...
The more through the heat saturation, the more even the anneal.
Compacted stress lines are elminated or reduced, grain structure is restored.
Electrical Induction heats on a molecular level, restoring grain structure.
This REQUIRES a heating between 650-750*F in common cartridge brass.

Below about 500*F does nothing in 'High' brass.
Above 750*F alloy components in brass will off-gas,
800*+ brass will become monocrystalline & brittle.
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Old December 25, 2016, 07:22 AM   #27
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The way I measure the case
Is with the hornady headspace gauge
I put onto my digital caliper.
I understand annealing the brass and it
Does work. I just need to get the
Process down, so I can do it reliably
When I have too.
The issue, I'm having now is the
Dimensions of my chamber
Since I got my rifle back.
I pulled the bullet from a few of the
7.62x51 ammo I have and measured
Them. Length and from datum etc.
If I don't push the case to 1.625
Or lower I can't close my bolt.
But longer will chamber in 308 savage
If I bought ammo like mentioned
Here with a length of 1.630 I wouldn't
Be able to fire it.
This is what's confusing.
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Old December 25, 2016, 07:43 AM   #28
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Bytesniffer,

Help me sum up the information. What I think the situation is...

You have two rifles, one a Savage and the other a Mossberg Patriot.

The Savage will chamber 308 brass sized to 1.630" and the Mossberg will not.

The Mossberg was recently serviced.

Steps I'd check, see if there is any debris in the Mossberg chamber. Sometimes some brass chips can get in there and mess things up. Check the headspace with a Go Gauge, as a Go Gauge should be 1.630" and the bolt should close. If the bolt doesn't close on a Go Gauge, then you can either set the headspace yourself with a vise and barrel nut spanner, or you can have a gunsmith do it, or send it back to Mossberg.

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Old December 25, 2016, 09:47 AM   #29
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Bytesniffer:
Quote:
The way I measure the case
Is with the hornady headspace gauge
I put onto my digital caliper.
I understand annealing the brass and it
Does work. I just need to get the
Process down, so I can do it reliably
When I have too.
The issue, I'm having now is the
Dimensions of my chamber
Since I got my rifle back.
I pulled the bullet from a few of the
7.62x51 ammo I have and measured
Them. Length and from datum etc.
If I don't push the case to 1.625
Or lower I can't close my bolt.
But longer will chamber in 308 savage
If I bought ammo like mentioned
Here with a length of 1.630 I wouldn't
Be able to fire it.
This is what's confusing.
There are a few caveats to measuring case dimensions. Beginning with your Hornady Case Gauge. I have a set of those and the .308 cartridge is just about as accurate as anyone could want. See the below images.

Case Gauge Set:


When measuring for example .308 Winchester cases the datum on the shoulder is where the shoulder crosses 0.4". The Hornady collets while pretty accurate in hole dimension also have a radius. My Hornady gauge used for .223 Remington sucks with a + 0.005 error. What that means is if I fire and measure a spent case the number I see or read will exceed actual by .004". The gauge is usable as to measuring change as in resizing but is not at all accurate as to giving me a true number.

Here is an example using the .308 Winchester adapter with an actual known true headspace gauge:



Without a good "known" there is no way to rely on the gauge to measure an unknown. Best case is you can only measure change. OK, I just used the case gauge to measure a known 1.630 headsppace gauge. I can now feel the following measurement to be true and accurate:



So all in all what I am pointing out is the numbers you are getting from the Hornady Case Gauge set may or may not be valid. I have seen errors of 0.010" using those gauges depending on caliber. Unless the gauge has been compared to a known you really have no way of knowing what the legal truth is.

The only way to know what you have for an actual chamber is to measure it using a chamber headspace gauge, make a casting using something like Cero Safe then accurately measure the casting.

Finally, when using gauges like the LE Wilson case gauges keep in mind what they do and do not measure. For example they do not measure width of the case.

As to annealing? Getting it right comes with practice. There are likely dozen methods out there to choose from.

Ron
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Old December 25, 2016, 10:21 AM   #30
brasscollector
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Quote:
what I am pointing out is the numbers you are getting from the Hornady Case Gauge set may or may not be valid
The numbers are ALWAYS valid when you use it as it was designed, AS A COMPARATOR. It was never designed to give you hard figures from a zero measurement.
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Old December 25, 2016, 12:00 PM   #31
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ReloadRon,
I've found EXACTLY the same thing with headspace adapters, radiused edges that screw up an 'Absloute' reading.

That damned taper/radius/champfer usually gets lapped or cut off,
Or I just turn/bore my own.

If you can't ZERO the caliper/micrometer off EXACTLY the same face that contacts the case, then you have a 'Relative' comparator instead of an ABSLOUTE measurement.

That covered, this is an annealing thread...

Mr. Guffey takes 17 laps around the barn and a couple trips through the park,
Never gets directly to the point,
But he's correct about at least one thing,

You either have enough press to whip the brass,
Or the brass whips the press and you don't get CONSISTANT resizing.

What that DOES NOT cover is consistancy of the brass to start with.
Annealing gives a MUCH more CONSISTANT START POINT,
The 'ZERO' point,
The 'Base Line' where you start from.

Think about it this way,
The same brass, same firearm, same load, same bullet, same primer...
Reloaded on the same dies...
THE BRASS IS GOING TO HARDEN AT DIFFERENT RATES!

Brass will work harden side to side differently on the SAME NECK.
Since Rockwell testing is distructive, I tried to get two samples from the same case neck, and found two different Rockwell numbers.

GRAIN STRUCTURE from side to side often is different, one side more compressed than the other.

The ONLY thing I can come up with is FORMING causes compaction issues.
Brand new, unfired brass shows slight issues, which compound as the brass is blown out & sized back down.

A COMPLETE annealing reduces this difference to a minimum,
Giving you a MUCH more consistant starting point,
And since the brass is MUCH softer, it takes resizing more consistently,
And takes a bunch of stress off the press...

Heating with a torch is effective.
The biggest issue I see is heat transfer (saturation), the outside of the brass simply gets way hotter than the inside...
'Jet' torches compound the issue. (So does MAPP gas)

Open flame 'Fan Tip' heating *Seems* to reach target temp SLOWER allowing better saturation, without overheating the rest of the case.
Probably why so many manufacturers used, and still use this method.

Winchester, Remington, Federal all use electrical induction (magnetic) annealing for 'Premium' cases/ammunition.
I've been to the plants, I've seen it first hand.

The reason is simple, more consistant and complete annealing,
And it's also cost effective on large scale, being economy in volume.
My work with electrical induction was inspired by a factory engineer explaining why electrical induction was being used over gas or hot die annealing about 15 years ago... (2002-2003)

I don't know about the old stories, didn't read 'Fiction' about heat treating/annealing.
I went with technical manuals, manufacturers recommendations, and all the technical information I could find.
Actual science beats second or third hand stories written by guys doing non-scientifically controlled 'Experiments' on there kitchen tables every time.

I had to learn for government contracts, people with specific requirements that ARE going to do QC testing,
Cartridge brass annealing is my hobby that actual science spilled over into.
I don't read 40 year old articles written by an 'Outdoors Hobbiest' about something as technical as heat treating/alloy normalization,
So you won't see me quoting such...
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Old December 25, 2016, 12:31 PM   #32
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Bytesniffer --

Write down the numbers you got from measuring the cases
from each rifle on a small piece of paper and put the paper in
with your die set , you will need these numbers later setting up your
die for sizing
Also write the numbers down in the NOTES section
of your LOADING LOG ( for back up later )
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Old December 25, 2016, 12:42 PM   #33
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ByteSniffer,
You will find that most 'Common' (low budget) dies are a little sloppy.
They are too cheaply produced in volume for high tolerance QC finish.

Their 'Fix' is a 'Small Base' die, slightly tighter tolerances on the case body, but still mass produced.

*Some* of the high tolerance competition dies will produce very close to SAAMI specification brass.
Being experienced with dies myself, the 'Trick' is to final finish after heat treating.
Mass producers don't like to do this because the metal is hardened and MUCH harder to work, taking more time & time is money.

The next issue is working the case BODY/SIDES without setting the shoulder back.
The bottom of then case gets blown out just above the head when fired in a machine gun, the biggest problem with resizing 7.62/.308 brass by far.
The case is thick, hard AND oversized, and its oversized right where the common dies have a hard time reaching... Compounding the problem...

Bumping the shoulder back depends on die depth seating in relationship to the ram/shell holder. (We all know that)
What a lot of people don't realize is the taper/radius ground into the bottom of the die never contacts the bottom of the brass,
AND,
The shell holder prevents the die from reaching part of the lower of the brass.
This leaves a section of the lower sides that don't get resized...
In a really tight chamber that case 'Bloat' will keep the brass from reaching the headspace (Datum Line) taper in the chamber (and some Datum Line headspace gauges).

The headspace gauge IS NOT a case PROFILE gauge!
It's slightly oversized at the body to allow the datum point to reach the stop in the gauge with oversized case bodies.

A profile gauge will look like the headspace gauge with the side ground out so you can see if the brass contours with the gauge...

*IF* the chamber is 'Short' then correct the chamber.

*IF* the chamber checks out, and it's just 'Tight', then correct the brass.
One 'Trick' is to use a die that reaches down the case further, to push the 'Bloat' back in where it belongs.

'Small Base' dies just have a little less taper at the bottom,
Chamber length is still the same.
Cranking down on the die sets the shoulder/headspace back to unacceptable short headspace in some cases...

One 'Trick' I recently tried, and worked,
Was to use a cheap/common 'Small Base' .30-06 die, which gives you plenty of room between headspace taper & .308 brass shoulder,
And grind the bottom off the die until the die sizes the bottom of the case body,
Never touching the shoulder.

Run the cases through a proper .308 die to set shoulder where it needs to be.
This usually only has to be done once with machine gun fired brass, like removing the primer crimp... the 'Tight' chamber keeps the brass from over expanding again.
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Old December 25, 2016, 02:30 PM   #34
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I agree that induction is the most accurate and economic way to go for annealing cases although. The common hand loader isn't going to spend what the equipment would cost to go that way.

Practice with a broad propane flame from a bit of a distance about 3-4" should do with some testing.

I have found my hornet cases are about half the thickness of a 222 and a common 308 has more variable thickness than any I have seen with my very limited experience with annealing.

So for me it's a case in a deep-well socket in a drill motor is the way I go in aprox. time of 3 sec. Although I have cracked a few necks with my Hornet.

I only anneal only when my cases get used to a point of cracking necks at this time.

This thread is the most informative I have read yet on the subject.

Marry Christmas
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Old December 25, 2016, 07:45 PM   #35
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I have always thought (but no one has mentioned) the "water pan/tip over" method had the advantage of keeping the head/rim/bottom of the case at a controlled temp, while you heat the neck/shoulders. Thus you get relatively even temp above the water line.
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Old December 25, 2016, 07:55 PM   #36
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Marco Califo:
Quote:
I have always thought (but no one has mentioned) the "water pan/tip over" method had the advantage of keeping the head/rim/bottom of the case at a controlled temp, while you heat the neck/shoulders. Thus you get relatively even temp above the water line.
Thought that was mentioned? Anyway, yeah, while there is no merit to quenching brass the water in the pan acted to sink the heat away from the case head. It keeps the lower portion of the case cool. That said many who hold the brass by the head in their fingertips manage to get the neck annealed before the heat migrates along the case enough to burn their fingers. Does the water help? Nope but I guess it won't hurt anything either.

Ron
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Old December 25, 2016, 08:25 PM   #37
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6-8 seconds in tempilaq-regulated spin drill propane flame won't even make the base warm before the case is dumped.

That, plus the water-pan tipover method can't even hope to approach uniform heating.
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Old December 26, 2016, 12:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
6-8 seconds in tempilaq-regulated spin drill propane flame won't even make the base warm before the case is dumped.

That, plus the water-pan tipover method can't even hope to approach uniform heating.
Annealing reminds me of a parable by John Godfrey Sax;

http://www.constitution.org/col/blind_men.htm

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Old December 26, 2016, 06:34 AM   #39
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To do cartridge case annealing well you really have only two options.

Buy or build a machine that will consistently apply the heat you want. Or develop technique using hand and eye that is consistent enough to get the results you want.

I watched a youtube video on how to build an annealing machine for less than 100 bucks, and sure enough it would work just fine (using propane, not electrical induction). With a machine, you can "set it and forget it" to some extent, with the "hand and eye" technique you can't.

If I were in the manufacturing or remanufacturing business, a machine would be the only way to go. Simply for volume purposes on top of quality control purposes. But it wouldn't be a do it yourself hundred dollar machine.

Sill, a plumbers torch and spinning the cartridge with your fingers before dropping it into a steel bucket still works for me, at least for now. Might build one of those annealing machines for giggles.

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Old December 26, 2016, 08:21 AM   #40
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Marco , the water pan, tip over is the Norma way. Which ,over the years , I have quoted in full and also in part. Anyone listening ??

In science there is a comment --" Don't look for a convoluted complex answer when a simple strait forward one is at hand !"
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Old December 26, 2016, 09:31 AM   #41
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LongShot,
There are YouTube videos on electrical induction units made from scrap salvaged parts.
Some guys have no experience with electrical ANYTHING, and we actually had a thread on an open source annealer for reloaders...
Something easy to build with easy to follow diagrams.
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Old December 26, 2016, 11:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Marco , the water pan, tip over is the Norma way. Which ,over the years , I have quoted in full and also in part. Anyone listening ??
No; they are shouting, "Pick me", "Pick me". As John said: all were partially in the right and all were in the wrong.

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Old December 26, 2016, 12:14 PM   #43
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AFAIK, 260 brass (cartridge brass) has always been nominally 30% Zinc. 40% zinc is Muntz metal as was used to cover wooden ship hulls to prevent ship worms or other life forms from attaching themselves. Brass with zinc in the middle 30% range (31.3-37%, according to Matweb) is just common yellow brass. All have been used to make cartridge cases at one time or another. The higher zinc alloys were used for a time during WWII when copper was carefully husbanded.
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Old December 26, 2016, 12:46 PM   #44
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We call cartridge casings 'Brass' because what we see most of is made of brass.
Casings have been paper (cellulose), steel, aluminum, zinc, lead, copper, bronze & all kinds of brass.

Content of alloys varies my manufacturer.

Anyone that *Thinks* anything written about annealing in an outdoors magazine 40 years ago is wrong.
Anyone that thinks a 'Reloading' manual from 30 years ago is the last word is wrong.

The alloy mix is constantly evolving, no one uses the same base brass alloy, processing changes the base brass alloy (as does annealing done incorrectly, mostly overheating)...

There isn't one single CURRENT dissertation on cartridge brass annealing 8 can find, outside of proprietary factory information, and that's hard to lay hands on.

The ONLY way to figure out heat treating of brass (and annealing is heat treating) is to actually do that annealing & testing under controlled conditions.
The guys annealing & reloading several times, up to a couple dozen times, are doing testing.
No the most controlled manner testing, but testing none the less.

I don't care how you anneal, or even *IF* you anneal or not,
What I do care about is "old wives tales" being passed along as 'Fact'.
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Old December 26, 2016, 02:08 PM   #45
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Quote:
I don't care how you anneal, or even *IF* you anneal or not,
What I do care about is "old wives tales" being passed along as 'Fact'.
The old poison well thing and insults through innuendo works on everyone but me. That takes us beck to John Godfrey Sax and all being partially right but all in the wrong.

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Old December 26, 2016, 02:44 PM   #46
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Mr. Guffey, take your meds...
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Old December 26, 2016, 03:38 PM   #47
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Quote:
Mr. Guffey, take your meds...
Again; I am one of the few that is not impressed with your behavior, I quote a parable and it drives you into the curb or it locks you up. There are a number of members trying to contribute.

It has been many years since I made a recommendation to another member about improving his -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-y outlook on life; he did not take my advise and continued to be uncivil to me and others. I am not an enabler, I have Alabama Leg Dog experience thanks to the good people at Alabama Blue pit.

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Old December 26, 2016, 03:44 PM   #48
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What can I say... ?
http://i65.tinypic.com/avbcj.gif
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Old December 26, 2016, 04:00 PM   #49
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On a more serious note Guffey:

All any of are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place.
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Old December 26, 2016, 09:04 PM   #50
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I use the molten lead method and it works and has for just over 50 years for me. Rod
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