The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 24, 2009, 04:40 PM   #1
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
New type of hollow point bullet

Hi all, have a question;

I've invented a new type of hollow point bullet, and I'd like to 1., share, and 2.,get some feedback.
After much reading, I can see there are some knowledgable folks here.

My question is where do I post this? I don't really see a thread for ammunition except for reloaders.

Suggestions?

Thanks!
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 05:00 PM   #2
QBall45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2008
Location: South Central Minnesota
Posts: 583
What size & weight?
Projectial only? Rather than loaded ammo?

Where's the pic's?
QBall45 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 05:02 PM   #3
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,525
I would go ahead and post it right here in the reloading forum....especially if it is just the bullet.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 05:16 PM   #4
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Thanks for responding.

The bullet is a new class of Hollow Point. the innovative part is that I've incorporated small 'ports' or 'vents' at the base of the cavity.

this allows the bullet to vent the otherwise trapped air in the cavity, making expansion more efficient over a wider range of conditions.

to date, testing has been promising, and we're setting up independent testing from two different sources to verify our results.

I have a website: www.hypercavbullets.com with additional details.

Here's a pic:



I'll look forward to your input/questions.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 05:32 PM   #5
sserdlihc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2008
Location: S.C.
Posts: 1,454
IMHO it doesn't appear to expand nearly as much as a Golden Saber. Just by the pic you posted. I suppose I will need to see some test results to make my final judgement.

Post testing results as soon as you can!
__________________
Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius
If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress
sserdlihc is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 05:46 PM   #6
Christchild
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2009
Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770
Posts: 544
I too, would like to see a little more expansion, but expansion will vary with different "test media", depending on the media's material and density.

Very fine idea, however. I like the ports! Definitely makes sense to me.
Christchild is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 06:07 PM   #7
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
The round in the picture is a Speer Gold Dot .38+P fired from a 2"revolver. Ballistic medium was a wax-base, approx. 2X density of standard ballistic gel.
Penetration was 101/2"

A couple of notes;

This modification (HC), can be applied to literally ALL calibers, ALL brands, both handgun and rifle.

The other is if you look closely at the fired round, you'll notice the petals are extended outward, rather than curling back. that would translate to a wider permanent cavity. We got the same results time and time again.

The same stock 'control' round, opened and folded back almost touching the bullet body.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 06:12 PM   #8
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,816
If your theory is that the compressibility of the air trapped in the hollow point is delaying your expansion, why not fill the cavity with an incompressible solid like polyethylene? That way you don't even have to wait for the cavity to fill with tissue but the expansion starts the instant you contact a solid barrier.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 06:18 PM   #9
Christchild
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2009
Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770
Posts: 544
I agree with the petals remaining more "outward" from the shank, as opposed to curled back... I've got my own idea for the "Nose Cavity Patterning" to enhance exactly that.

So are You going to be marketing the ported bullets, themselves (for Handloaders), loaded ammunition only (with the ported bullets) or the system/tool to port the bullets?
Christchild is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 06:46 PM   #10
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,512
Wouldn't the same air vent holes become hydraulic vent holes the moment the bullet penetrated something fleshy or liquid? Rendering it less effective than one without holes?
teeroux is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:12 PM   #11
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"If your theory is that the compressibility of the air trapped in the hollow point is delaying your expansion, why not fill the cavity with an incompressible solid like polyethylene? That way you don't even have to wait for the cavity to fill with tissue but the expansion starts the instant you contact a solid barrier."
If I understand...what you're describing would be kind of difficult. Having a medium that's incompressible, yet flexible to allow deforming when acting on a force of flexible tissue.

Of course, I'm not an expert in specific resins...
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:20 PM   #12
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"I agree with the petals remaining more "outward" from the shank, as opposed to curled back... I've got my own idea for the "Nose Cavity Patterning" to enhance exactly that.

So are You going to be marketing the ported bullets, themselves (for Handloaders), loaded ammunition only (with the ported bullets) or the system/tool to port the bullets?"
Yeah, to me, the more ragged square area, the more tissue damage...more "bang for your buck".

If you have a design for an improved design, you should do a patent search and find out if its been done. If not, go for it!

Actually, i don't plan on marketing this myself, rather to License the technology to an existin manufacturer. i would think that HC-class ammo would become available in every form on the market today.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:28 PM   #13
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"Wouldn't the same air vent holes become hydraulic vent holes the moment the bullet penetrated something fleshy or liquid? Rendering it less effective than one without holes?"
It's intended, based on the 90 degree angle, that resistance during transition from air-to-tissue, that the holes are plugged, allowing the cavity to pressurize.

Any tissue-bleed into the ports would be irrelevant.
Remember, after the cavity is filled, the ports 'job' is done. The ports only exist for that first inch of penetration.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:31 PM   #14
Shane Tuttle
Staff
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 8,901
I'm not buying that air being trapped during impact would really cause a decrease in performance in expansion. In my limited search, I haven't seen any credible evidence otherwise.
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
Shane Tuttle is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:37 PM   #15
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"I'm not buying that air being trapped during impact would really cause a decrease in performance in expansion. In my limited search, I haven't seen any credible evidence otherwise."
Noted...the reason for the limited search results, are that there has been very little attention paid to this. That's why I was able to patent this, after searching patents internationally, back to 1922.

However, physics don't lie, and the 'laws' of same cannot be evaded.

"certain things MUST do certain things, under certain conditions".
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:38 PM   #16
Christchild
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2009
Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770
Posts: 544
Quote:
If you have a design for an improved design, you should do a patent search and find out if its been done. If not, go for it!
It's nothing major. Similar to the way Barnes is patterning the nose cavities in the TSX and TTSX, just enhanced/modified a bit.....
Christchild is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 08:55 PM   #17
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,525
I really like your creativity and how you are thinking. BUT, I would like to see a bullet without the vent holes and a bullet with the vent holes shot into the same media at the same velocity at the same distance. Do 10 of each and then post the results with pictures. I am interested. Thanks!
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 09:08 PM   #18
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"I really like your creativity and how you are thinking. BUT, I would like to see a bullet without the vent holes and a bullet with the vent holes shot into the same media at the same velocity at the same distance. Do 10 of each and then post the results with pictures. I am interested. Thanks!"
Thank you. I appreciate that.

As far as testing; We're setting up independent testing with Brassfetcher, and with DocGKR in the near future. Doc will be doing a full FBI protocol series.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 10:11 PM   #19
amathis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Champlain Valley, Vermont
Posts: 161
As Coyotehunter said, I'd love to see comparison pics. You could be on to something. If you ever send out samples for testing PM me.
amathis is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 10:17 PM   #20
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Go to my website, at the bottom is a "wishlist". I'll get some out as soon as I can.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 10:29 PM   #21
QBall45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2008
Location: South Central Minnesota
Posts: 583
I'm with Tuttle8 on this one.

Just give me any standard HP handgun ammo so can go load my mags. I done care if that's HydraShocks, Gold Dot's, Gloden Sabers, Ranger, Win SXT, or run o the mill plain jane JHP's. They are all better than nothing. And none as good as a .308.

Really, I'm seriously thinking about running factory hardball in my 45 this winter. Penetration is better than hp's in heavy clothing.

Just my random thoughts after reading more on this thread.
QBall45 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 10:45 PM   #22
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"Just give me any standard HP handgun ammo so can go load my mags. I done care if that's HydraShocks, Gold Dot's, Gloden Sabers, Ranger, Win SXT, or run o the mill plain jane JHP's. They are all better than nothing. And none as good as a .308.

Really, I'm seriously thinking about running factory hardball in my 45 this winter. Penetration is better than hp's in heavy clothing.

Just my random thoughts after reading more on this thread."
A chain saw is better than a butter knife for cutting trees...I can't really argue with that logic...
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 10:57 PM   #23
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,857
Dude, your modification makes those gold dots perform terribly. You somehow managed to decrease both penetration and expansion.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De....38spl/.357mag



Hollowpoints rely on pressure building up in the hollowpoint, and you are venting that pressure. You took a good projectile and made it a really bad choice for anything.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 11:05 PM   #24
They1
Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 44
Quote:
"Dude, your modification makes those gold dots perform terribly. You somehow managed to decrease both penetration and expansion.

Hollowpoints rely on pressure building up in the hollowpoint, and you are venting that pressure. You took a good projectile and made it a really bad choice for anything."
Uh, the expansion is from HYDRAULIC pressure...not PNEUMATIC pressure.

If you comment was even marginally correct, all HP ammo would expand right out of the muzzle.
They1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2009, 11:31 PM   #25
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,857
Your vents are venting both types of pressure, chief. Holes tend to do that.

What makes you think that liquid will not find its way through those holes just as well as air will?

Your modifications have made the projectiles perform more poorly than the unmodified gold dots. Use your eyeballs.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08887 seconds with 8 queries