What VOLUME of Powder (TiteGroup)

[lwestatbus]

I need to check on the volume of powder I should be getting with lite loads using Hodgdon TiteGroup powder. I am brand new to handloading and only yesterday I set up my new Lee Classic Turret Press. I set up disks for .38 special and .44 special and loaded ten rounds of each. I am concerned that the volume of powder I had at the suggested weight was very low and would appreciate a reality check before I try to send these rounds down range. I also have a second question for what to do when the specs of your components don't match anything in the reloading info.

I decided that I should use 3.2 grains of powder for the .38 special and 4.0 grains for the .44 special (but see question #2). In both cases the volume of powder was waaayy less than could have fit in the case. My Lee die sets came with a 0.5 cc measure and this measure exceeded the weight I was loading. I'd done a lot of research before committing to my set up and encountered warnings about loads that filled cases too high that bullets would not seat. That will never be the case here.

Q1: Is 3.2 grains of this powder a very small volume?

I used a powder trickler into the pan of a Lyman balance bean scale and verified some of the throws on a Hornaday electronic scale. The weights were spot on. I calibrated both scales using a Lyman test weight set.

Q2: What do you do when the combination of caliber, case, bullet weight and style, and powder don't match any published data?

I had the Hodgdon 1924 Annual Reloading Manual and I used the Hodgdon online loading guide. I also compared what I found with the abbreviated guide that came with the Lee dies. Nothing ever matched and the Hodgdon manual would never be incomplete (because it broke down loads by brand of brass but if you use Starline as I am you may see loads for Winchester brass that weren't in the Starline section and vvice versa). When TiteGroup was listed it recommended lower grain weights than other powders driving the same bullet.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Jim Watson]

.38 Special and .44 Special were introduced with black powder which does fill the case, smokeless has more potential energy per unit mass or volume and does not.

Titegroup is what used to be known as a dense smokeless powder and is fast burning to boot. It does not take much to drive a revolver bullet and it looks like very little down in the bottom of a big case. You must take care not to double charge.

You don't state what bullets you are using. On the Hodgdon www 3.2 grains of Titegroup is the starting load for a.38 Special 158 grain cast semiwadcutter. That would serve a roundnose bullet as well, cast or coated. Jacketed would be different.

Brand of brass and primer are not significant at standard load levels, I have shot a lot of mixed brass.

[lwestatbus]

Thanks, Jim,

The .38s are 125 grain copper jacketed lead while the .44s are 240 grain FMJ.

Is having less than 0.5 cc of volume a reasonable amount of propellant for 3.2 grains? Your explanation re case size for black powder makes a lot of sense but would really like to prevent a stuck bullet. (Had one once with a factory manufactured .22.)

How are jacketed bullets different? Need more charge? Less? We are definitely getting into nuances of knowledge that aren't contained in the tabular data and I don't really know where to look for it.

Larry

[Recycled bullet]

Yes three grains of tightgroup can be a safe powder charge. Tightgroup is an extremely energetic pistol powder. Very very small amounts will generate sufficient pressure for the bullet to exit the handgun.

A strategy I have used that so far has never gotten me in trouble when I have difficulty locating loading data for a bullet that is for example not listed in any loading manual I own...
Generally it is safe to use the starting powder charge of heavier bullet with your lighter bullet as long as the seating depth is not deeper with the bullet that you are trying to extrapolate data for. Remember that a reduction of internal casing volume will increase pressure-sometimes in a way that is dangerous and not linear where small increases of powder or small reductions of internal volume can create an unsafe situation.

As long as you're careful, pay attention to all the details and ask a lot of questions you're going to be making excellent ammunition real soon!

I can definitely say I have shot similar loads and they were safe. I shot thousands of them, but with cast powder coated bullets.

There are instances where the gunpowder fills the case 100% full and can be safely compressed, for example in 357 Magnum using h110 or W 296 gunpowder.

And on the flip side I can put five powder charges of tight group in the casing and still have room to fit a bullet. Kaboom!

Generally powder coated or hi-tek coated bullets can exit the barrel with a lower powder charge all other things being equal, as opposed to a jacketed bullet which may require a greater initial powder charge to prevent a stuck bullet.

Look at your fired casings and if the exterior of the cartridge case is sooty after being fired then usually that means that the pressure was too low to seal the casing properly and should be incrementally increased. Shoot 10 or 20 shot groups at a Target at a set distance and as you compare average group size if an incremental increase of the powder charge causes an exponential increase in the group size then you know that the pressure or recoil is causing a deleterious effect on the combination of shooter, gun, bullet, case and powder.

Generally the more energetic powders require a lesser charge Mass and volume to make an equivalent pressure as the greater charge mass and volume of a less energetic gunpowder.

Look in your reloading manual at the 357 Magnum powder charge and pressure listings for tight group and W 296 for 110 grain bullets and you will see the difference in charge Mass required to make a similar velocity.

Also you can look at the same powders between 9 mm Luger and 38 Special and you can notice a pattern of similar powder charges with standard for caliber bullet weights in 38 vs 9mm, 9mm will generally run at almost twice as much pressure.

If you are interested in using a powder Dipper instead of a powder measure you're probably going to want one that measures exactly in between 0.3 cc and 0.5 CC.

This can be done easily by silver soldering a piece of copper wire to a fired 9 mm casing and then filing the case mouth to reduce volume until you have calibrated it against your scale. Then you can use a chamfering tool to slightly sharpen the case mouth and voila!

Fold the length of wire down into a loop and make a small dab of silver solder to hold the loop together.

Although in my case I quit doing all that when I had the Lee perfect plastic measure and now my current favorite is the Lee metal Deluxe powder measure.

What kind of gun are you shooting this out of? Does it have fixed sights that will be likely regulated for a specific bullet weight and velocity, or do you have adjustable sights so that you can do whatever you want?

[lwestatbus]

Recycled Bullet,

What an amazing and informative response. I'll need to pin this as there is a lot of background knowledge on principles here that help to shape understanding of details. MANY thanks for taking the time to write this!!

The .38s (and later .357s*) are a pair of S&W Model 60 J-Frames, one 3" and one 5". The .44 special (and later .44 magnum*) is a S&W Model 69 with a 4.25" barrel. All have fully adjustable sights.

* Still waiting on magnum primers for these. Bass Pro Shop says they are on the way with ship to store but they have been on the way for a while.

Thanks again!!!

Larry

[mikejonestkd]

* Still waiting on magnum primers for these.

in general terms : The powder selection determines the primer used, not the case name

[Nick_C_S]

Is 3.2 grains of this powder a very small volume?

I haven't read all the responses, but the short answer is "yes." It IS a very small volume. BUT . . . it is a perfectly reasonable charge weight for a 125gr bullet in 38 Special.

TiteGroup is very dense and highly energetic. The two characteristics combined make for very small charge volumes (and weights). When I was using TG for 38 Special, I was usually running 148 grain bullets and the charge weights were right around 3.0 grains. So 3.2 under a 125 is reasonable.

But yes, some FIVE charges of 3.2 grains will physically fit into a 38 Special case without it spilling over. I can see why such a small volume of charge would raise an eyebrow with a novice, but conscientious loader. You're being observant. That's good.

[Nathan]

Q1: (answered) yes, a small volume.

Q2: I consider load data matching when the primer is the same type; the case is the same cartridge; the powder is exactly as named and less than 10 years old; the bullet is the same exact weight, the same material and about the same weight ratio in and out of the case mouth. I also prefer the load data to be less than 20 yrs old.

I load a 148 gr plated WC 3.2gr of Titegroup. It works, it safe, it is superbly accurate. It is not comparable data to your situation.

When I find my self in a concerning situation that I cannot clarify to the right level, I call the powder and/or bullet maker. They know. They also have good advice on where to start.

Internet forums can be a good source of help, but how reliable are they compared to the folks with a stake in your success??

Hodgdon shows cast and jacketed data. 3.2gr is the minimum load for cast. Jacketed starts at 4.3gr. There is a reason for this difference. I’m not sure why. It matters, I’m sure.

[Unclenick]

One of the reasons a small charge of Tightgroup reaches adequate pressure is that it burns so quickly that the bullet has moved only a fraction of an inch when the pressure peaks, so it is peaking in a small (for the amount of gas generated) volume. If you were using a 357 magnum packed with H110, you would find that this much slower-burning powder, even though its energy content is as high as Tightgroup's, wouldn't make gas fast enough to reach the peak until the bullet was on its way through the barrel, and thus the pressure peaks in a bigger volume; all the volume behind that bullet. The addition of powder-burning volume behind a bullet as it moves down the bore is called expansion. With Tightgroup, you get very little expansion, and with H110, much more, so you can safely burn a lot more H110 without pressure overwhelming the gun.

[44 AMP]

Q2: What do you do when the combination of caliber, case, bullet weight and style, and powder don't match any published data?

Best way to do it is data first, then buy components listed.

Get a book, better yet get three or more. READ ALL of them, not just the load tables. This will answer many of the questions you have, and some of the ones you don't yet know to ask.

There is a lot of loading experience here, we're happy to share, and sometimes overshare, welcome to reloading!

[rmh3481]

I do exactly what your doing when I load something I havent had the pleasure of loading before or if its been awhile. I start out very light and move up over time. I use the same cases, primer structure and bullet weight when testing. For instance loading 45acp could be either small primer or large, so I stay with what I started with until Im sure of the final load. I keep notes right inside my book now because of misplacing my older binders.

The only problem I ever had and it was not really a problem, was with a very light load on a 44special. I was getting only partial combustion of the powder. I guess the powder was laying on the bottom of the case and would get blown out? Once I increased the load the situation went away. This blow out load was very light because I wasnt sure of the powder. It was one of those situations where a Church member passed and the widow gave me this large box of different powders. I usually turn that type of gift down, but for economic reasons decided to try it. Sealed cans are fine, but I shy away from anything that has been opened. The older stuff has to pass the smell test anyway. Im sharing this with you so when one of your buddies puts his gear away and then hands you a couple open cans of powder, you know what to do with them.

[lll Otto lll]

It seems like every noob starts with Titegroup, which is a very unforgiving powder.

[jetinteriorguy]

I’ll throw in my $.02 based on having used a lot of Titegroup and why I no longer keep it on the shelf. As a fairly new reloader it’s not one I’d recommend. While it’s very economical and work’s very well it can be tricky for two reasons. Number one, it’s too easy to accidentally double charge, especially in long cases as used in many revolvers. Number two, it can spike suddenly and cause a kaboom with even a small overcharge. For loading.38sp like you’re doing I’d suggest a powder that gives better case fill such as HP38/W231, easier to visually verify no double load and more forgiving in nature with slight variances in charging due to the usual things one can encounter in the loading process.

[lwestatbus]

Many thanks for the continuing stream of helpful advice. In addition to specific "facts" about using this powder I am identifying concepts that I need to understand before moving forward in a big way.

You must take care not to double charge. (Jim Watson)
it’s too easy to accidentally double charge (jetinteriorguy)

This remains my biggest fear but I am very confident that my processes are going to keep me out of this minefield. So far I am weighing every charge and moving charged cases from one rack to another when they are charged. I have purchased a crank-style powder dispenser as trickle weighing every charge is pretty cumbersome but my initial plan is to dispense directly onto my scale.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Best way to do it is data first, then buy components listed.

I've seen this advice before but... Just not going to be practical given the availability of components. I've got an investment in reasonable components and my challenge now is to correctly interpolate when the component I have doesn't exactly match the tabular data. E.g., I have all Starline brass and my current manual lists some loads for Starline but others for Winchester. The Hodgdon online load calculator seems to list exclusively Winchester brass.

Originally Posted by Nathan

I consider load data matching when the primer is the same type; the case is the same cartridge; the powder is exactly as named and less than 10 years old; the bullet is the same exact weight, the same material and about the same weight ratio in and out of the case mouth. I also prefer the load data to be less than 20 yrs old.

This is what I'm going to have to go with. It seems that bullet weight and type (cast, coated) are the critical discriminators but continuing to look for data.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Get a book, better yet get three or more. READ ALL of them, not just the load tables. This will answer many of the questions you have, and some of the ones you don't yet know to ask.

Done. Started with one. Downloaded #2, and the Lyman 51st Handbook is on the way in print. Really hoping that the last one will have richer tabular data.

That's it for now. Again, thanks to all for the insights and the time you all took to reply and try to educate me.

[tangolima]

Did you work up your load? Sounds like you just pick a charge from the book based on the components you have. The standard practice is to shoot different charge loads within the range suggested by the manual, from low to high, reading pressure signs of each load and stopping if necessary. Then you pick the charge suitable for your gun based on the results.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Paul B.]

You mentioned waiting for magnum primers. You do not need magnum primers with Titegroup. Frankly, I don't even use them with powders like 2400 and H110/W296.(same powder, different label) Haven't had a problem yet and I've been handloading ammo since 1954. I do load for the .357 and .44 Magnums.
Paul B.

[Sevens]

I'll need to pin this as there is a lot of background knowledge on principles here that help to shape understanding of details.

Brother, you said it. As gun discussion forums go, The Firing Line is a Hall of Famer, but sadly, one that is far past it's prime. This place used to be top of the internet and these days is a shadow of it's former self. However, with that said, this area of the site dedicated to handloading is still phenomenal. But there is a component necessary and it goes beyond those willing to help and offer advice--

For this discourse to take place, the regular crew here wants to know they are offering advice to someone who is doing their part, and you've made it obvious that you are taking this endeavor as seriously as it deserves. Your fingers, your eyeballs, your firearms and your wallet deserve it also. Bravo to you!

I've already seen a lot of great advice. A couple things worth mentioning, even if I am repeating.

As said succinctly in post #12, lots of new guys start with Titegroup, and it is a very unforgiving powder. People buy this stuff because there is a lot of it for sale, it isn't expensive compared to all others, it uses small charge weights (a false economy, but I see the draw, especially when it's emotionally driven) and folks also get it because Hodgdon lists a ton of published load data for it.

This is NOT the powder for anyone careless or reckless, and you seem to be neither. You are a novice, but that's not for long! Titegroup is ALWAYS going to give you the smallest charge weight of anything/everything listed. If you don't see Titegroup with the smallest charge weight of all shown, dig deeper and find out why.

That small charge weight does open up pitfalls, just as you've seen. Especially in .38 Special, where the case has a huge amount of space inside no matter which powder you are using. And some cartridge/powder combinations do NOT deal well with a huge volume of open, extra space. Titegroup is different than most powders. Titegroup is the least position sensitive powder I have ever used, and I have probably used 3 dozen powders, give or take. Titegroup will safely ignore all the empty space while most powders do.

Titegroup has a very high nitro content and it burns HOT. I've rolled a gujillion rounds of .38 Special over many decades and more different powders than I care to list. And while I absolutely use Titegroup at my bench, I have also permanently banned it for .38 Special at my load bench. It burns hot, it makes my cylinder scorching hot and I don't enjoy that heat on range days. I've had snotty forum discussions with folks over this plenty of times, so YMMV and you might come to the same conclusion.

When it comes to SAFELY using powder as a brand new handloader, I will recommend that you invest in a great adjustable volumetric powder measure. The name powder measure is a misnomer, it does not measure anything. It does dump a consistent powder charger based on volume much like the Lee Auto Disk does, but it's much more flexible.

Furthermore, "batch loading" is a fantastic way for a brand new handloader to begin. This means that you do not size a case, prime a case, flare a case mouth, charge one, seat a bullet and crimp. Rather, you size 50 of them (or 250.) And then you prime 50 of them (or 250.) Then you flare case mouths... etc etc.

I bring up batch loading because this is where you build a routine that is not only SAFE, it also makes for terrific consistency. Consistency is your best path to great performing handloads. So when you get to the powder charge stage, use your powder measure to charge 25 or 50 cases all lined up beautifully in a single tray.

When you have a tray full of cartridge cases with their powder charge, all you need is a very good overhead light to visually ensure that all the pieces have a similar appearance in the powder charge. Yeah, you cannot see a 0.5 grain difference but you sure as hell can see a case you missed entirely or a case you double-charged by accident.

My last tip for now:
Plated bullets are decent bullets, they are not the best bullets at almost any facet of the game. They aren't the most accurate and they aren't the lowest cost either, but they are good bullets and fairly economical. I have used literally hundreds of thousands of them and I might have somewhere near 50,000 more on hand. Suffice to say that I like them and I have a lot of experience with them. My advice is simple when it comes to plated bullets:

DO NOT BABY THEM, especially in revolvers. Just don't do it, or you WILL stick one in your bore. If you stick one, they are no fun to remove. And for certain, your best chance to stick one will be in a revolver. This is because the cylinder gap natural to a revolver is a pressure bleed hole. If you make a TOO LIGHT load and your plated bullet doesn't have the speed to make the trip down the barrel, it will get started and the precious pressure that is the ONLY thing moving it forward will fart out the cylinder gap when you need it most. This doesn't happen as easily in a pistol barrel because the pressure cannot escape but it does happen and will happen in a revolver if you make baby-soft light loads and it's worse in .38 Special with lighter bullets also.

Super-fast tip to plated bullet loads in .38 Special for a brand new handloader: are you going to shoot these in a .357 Magnum revolver? If yes, then load your .38 plated bullet loads HOT for .38 and then test/observe/lower them as you see fit. It's kind of the opposite of load development, but a .357 Magnum is spec'd for TWICE the pressure of a .38 Special, and proof loads that are tested in it go beyond that. Please don't stick a plated bullet in your bore!

There's plenty of other things to discuss, but I've already written a novel.

You picked the right forum to come and ask for help!

[lwestatbus]

Many thanks for the continued flow of information and, Sevens, for the novella primer on, among other things, primers.

Originally Posted by Sevens

As said succinctly in post #12, lots of new guys start with Titegroup, and it is a very unforgiving powder. People buy this stuff because there is a lot of it for sale, it isn't expensive compared to all others, it uses small charge weights (a false economy, but I see the draw, especially when it's emotionally driven) and folks also get it because Hodgdon lists a ton of published load data for it.

I guess I'd better explain how I ended up with TiteGroup which starts with how I started reloading. Two months ago I bought a .44 mag (S&W Model 69) as I was going to be spending more time in bear country. I've been buying .38 Special for practice, .38 +P for carry, and had some .357 mag for bears before the upgrade. We all know the prices I was paying for that stuff. But a box of semi-jacketed soft point .44 mag was literally 6% of the price of the revolver and I couldn't find .44 special anywhere locally. So I decided to start loading my own. Did a lot of research on equipment, thought I'd done a lot on loading, and went to a local store with two lines of business, selling reloading equipment and components and mass producing loaded cartridges in very popular and very rare calibers. The guy there spent a lot of time with me and he suggested the TiteGroup. There were a dozen or more different brands of powder but he said that TG would be versatile for the multiple loads I was contemplating. I literally didn't know any better and his logic made sense so that's what I ended up with. I can certainly switch over as the expense wasn't so much I couldn't replace it but... After getting the validation that my low volume of propellant at 3.2 grains is appropriate I am very confident that I can apply the appropriate caution to do this correctly.

Originally Posted by Sevens

When it comes to SAFELY using powder as a brand new handloader, I will recommend that you invest in a great adjustable volumetric powder measure. The name powder measure is a misnomer, it does not measure anything. It does dump a consistent powder charger based on volume much like the Lee Auto Disk does, but it's much more flexible.

This is supposed to be delivered tomorrow, along with the Lyman manual. But, as I said in post #14 I will be dumping directly onto a scale and can read every load before putting it in a cartridge.

Sevens, you'll be pleased to know that I stumbled into essentially your process in my first twenty rounds loaded (10 ea of .38 spl and .44 spl). More background: After a LOT of research, including a LOT of YouTube videos, I settled on a Lee Classic 4-hole turret press. But one video pointed out that this press could easily be used as a single-stage press by batch performing the steps on all of the cartridges before rotating the turret. This is essentially what I did. I removed the indexing rod so the turret doesn't spin. After taking one cartridge through all of the steps (and measuring that powder four times!!!) I loaded the rest of each caliber by:

1. Priming each cartridge and putting them in the tray. (Brass was brand new so no depriming.)
2. Sizing the cartridge and adding powder through the expander die. Again weighed each charge, some twice on different scales. Put in a different tray.
3. The last two steps were accomplished in sequence on each cartridge.
   1. I seated the bullet
   2. Manually rotated the turret and crimped the cartridge
   3. Manually rotated the turret back

I like this process as it gives me a lot of control over the state of each cartridge but the turret press does give me the option to be more 'automated' as my experience and confidence grows. E.g., my propellant dispenser will not be on the turret initially but it can go there.

Originally Posted by Paul B.

You mentioned waiting for magnum primers. You do not need magnum primers with Titegroup. Frankly, I don't even use them with powders like 2400 and H110/W296.(same powder, different label) Haven't had a problem yet and I've been handloading ammo since 1954. I do load for the .357 and .44 Magnums.

Very good to know and I'll be going by the load data on primers. But thank you as I could very easily not have checked this and just assumed that magnum primers were for, you know, magnum cartridges. So both a specific and a higher order lesson here.

Originally Posted by Paul B.

...and I've been handloading ammo since 1954.

I was born in 1954 and I'm no spring chicken. Wow!

Thanks again, all.

Larry

[Nick_C_S]

It seems like every noob starts with Titegroup, which is a very unforgiving powder.

Good observation Otto. I was going to mention that in my original post (#7), but thought it was getting outside the scope of our OP's concern. Plus, I was low on time. But it sounds like our OP has, and is going to use TiteGroup. Fair enough. He's chiming in and asking questions. So he'll likely do just fine.

Sevens, you pretty much mentioned everything I had to say about TiteGroup. That was a great read - all of it. Well done. I too have "banned" it from 38 Special - for the same reason. That stuff in light 38 Special loads will quickly heat up my beefy L-frames.

I quit using TiteGroup. If I loaded a lot for semi-auto's like 9mm and 40, I likely still would. But I don't. I'm a revolver guy. And when I do shoot semi-auto's, there's about an 80% chance it's a 1911 (45 ACP, naturally). And I don't see any reason to use anything in 45 ACP except Bullseye and W231. I also load 10mm and I definitely would not use TG in 10mm - I like my fingers and hands too much.

Please don't take this wrong. I'm not bad-mouthing TiteGroup. If one needs to load quantities of range quality semi-automatic ammo, TG is hard to beat.

You'll never hear me bad-mouth any propellant. I have yet to use one where I was unable to find at least one thing it does very well.

[44 AMP]

A couple of points I would mention, consider doing your priming AFTER sizing and flaring cases. I've been loading since about 1970 and with .38 special (also most other revolver rounds) when cases fail, its usually a crack at the case mouth, and often the case crack shows up after flaring the case mouth. It is the most worked part of the case.

If you flare and THEN prime, (and of course pay attention to what's going on) you will likely never have to deal with a primed case with a cracked mouth.

Fast powders, like Tite Group and Bullseye and W231 are very attractive to commercial reloading outfits. They will produce standard velocity loads and physically use less powder than slower burning ones, and that saves the commercial reloader money.

I don't personally use TiteGroup. For my fast powder loads I use Bullseye or 231. Been using them for decades, see no reason to change.

I don't run target wadcutters much, nearly all my .38 special loading for years has been 158gr SWC at the standard 850ish fps. And the last few cases of that I've loaded has been with Red Dot. Works well enough, though it isn't the cleanest load, but since I'm shooting cast slugs it hardly matters to me. I use Red Dot because I got over a dozen pounds of it a while back (part of a package deal) and don't use it in other things, so, its essentially "free" meaning I can use it and don't need to use powders that I use for other things.

[lwestatbus]

I was searching .44 Special loads for a different reason and came across the following post from 2014: Anyone reloading .44 Special with Titegroup/CFE Pistol?. The original poster there had essentially the same question as my original here, was the perceived low volume of TiteGroup powder appropriate. It turns out that it seems to be.

It was also interesting to see that Sevens was replying to that post just as he was to mine.

[HiBC]

I suggest you put a few rows of brass in your loading block. Unsized,spent primers is fine.
Then take your 3.6 gr measure and charge all the cases with Titegroup.
Now add another charge to two or three cases. You want a few double charges in the loading block. If you want to do a "shell game shuffle" thats good.

Now do the "Visual Check" for powder levels. How did you do? Do you have absolute confidence your visual would catch any double charge if you were loading 200 rounds? OK, Dump the powder and return it to the can.(Consciously read the powder label out loud, twice,every time )

I get it you HAVE Titegroup. Maybe the gunstore guy gave you questionable advice.
Some day you will load some ammo you think might have a problem. We don't just "Shoot them up" There is a time to shrug and pull the bullets.

Your can of Titegroup will keep.

A long time Law Enforcement/Gunwriter/ Champion of the 44 Spl was Skeeter Skelton. He settled in on a load known as "The Skeeter Skelton Load" Its a "Sweet Spot" 44 Spl Load. Its about 900 fps with a 240 (I think) gr cast bullet . The powder is Unique. I can't tell you the charge weight but it is about twice the 4.0 gr you suggest which means a double charge would be far easier to see.

Someone will be kind enough to post the "Skeeter Skelton 44 Spl Load"

Unique would be a very good powder to score.

[Nick_C_S]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Further, any and all load information I post here on TFL is just the sharing of my experience and is in no way a recommendation.

I don't know if the following is outside published data, and I'm not going to look it up to find out. Be assured, for the most part, hot rodding ammo isn't my thing. If I want more power, I'll use a bigger gun. I'm far more interested in crafting clean, consistent running ammo.

I looked up my load data regarding TiteGroup with 38 & 44 Special.

With 38 Special, I've loaded a plated 125 grain bullet (X-treme) to 4.6 grains of TG. I've loaded a 125 JHP (Everglades) up to 5.1 grains, and consider it a "+P" loading. They chronographed at 859 f/s and 968 f/s respectively. Through a S&W Model 67, 4" bbl.

With 44 Special, I loaded at plated 200gn FP bullet (X-treme) up to 6.1 grains. I field tested four different batches of this load recipe and they ran between 897f/s to 907 f/s. These through a S&W Model 629 5" bbl. My notes state that they ran very consistent and Standard Deviations were usually under 10.

So that gives a feel for what one guy has done with TG in 38 & 44 Special.

[lwestatbus]

I went to the range and have returned with all appendages, digits, and eyeballs intact!!!! This post is by way of THANKS to all who have been participating in my education in this process and especially to those who really went out of their way to teach me principles over and above 'mere' facts. I want to report on what I did and what worked.

I had previously (prior to the education in this thread) loaded ten rounds each of .38 special and .44 special using recipes that turned out to be lighter than what I eventually ended up with because I didn't understand how jacketed, coated, and lead might differ. After this thread I was uncomfortable that these loads would clear the barrel and decided to abandon these and even ordered an RCBS bullet puller, a Lee turret for it to live in, and appropriate collets. More on these preliminary cartridges later.

I loaded ten rounds each of .38 special with 125 gr coated bullets from Accura, .38 special with 148 gr coated wad cutters from X-Treme, and ten rounds each of .44 special with 240 gr Speer jacketed FMJ solid bullets. I was using my supply of Hodgdin's TiteGroup. None of these loads had exact matches to any 'recipe' for loading, especially with the plated bullets.

I didn't use any specific load anyone here suggested but derived my own based on principles you all suggested and triangulated with the Lyman's 51st Edition suggestion to treat coated bullets as hybreds and to work up the load. I mostly used specs for the high end of the lead bullets (as suggested here). Because the .44 special bullets were jacketed I used published ranges and started in the middle.

Here are the loads I developed and shot:

• .38 125 gr hollow point: 4.0 gr of TiteGroup <<<Edited
• .38 special 148 gr plated wadcutter: 3.3 gr of TiteGroup
• .44 special 240 gr jacketed FMJ: 4.5 gr TiteGroup

The all worked fine. The wadcutters seemed a little lite but the rest felt really, really good. I brought some factory loads (finally found some .44 special) and loaded a partial cylinder with reload - factory -reload and shot them off slowly to compare recoil and sound. In the .38 125 gr and .44 special loads I could not tell the difference. It was a small range and the range safety officer also reported that these sounded 'right'. There was nothing 'wrong' with the wadcutters but I think I'll goose the propellant charge just a bit the next time.

The "Almost" factor. I had one .38 and one .44 where there was just no primer in the cartridge when I opened the box and one .44's primer didn't seat deeply enough and it wouldn't let the cylinder rotate. I had visually inspected each primer after seating but missed the protruding primer and have no idea what happened to the missing primers. I did find that I had to really bear down seating the large pistol primers in my Lee Classic Turret press. I will be more meticulous in my inspections going forward.

I learned a LOT doing the reloading. First, I am confident that I managed my process appropriately (though the missing primers raise a question). I weighed every charge by trickling directly into the pan on a Lyman beam scale and I checked the scale and adjusted it with check weights before starting. I also checked 30% of the loads by dumping from the beam scale to a digital scale. I had removed my press' rotating rod and rotated by hand but I think I'll reinstall the rod and let the turret work the way it is supposed to as I am comfortable with my powder measuring.

The trickle dispensing was the most time consuming part of the process. But, I'd ordered a Lyman Brass Smith powder measure and stand which were delivered while I was at the range today. I will set this up to dispense directly onto one of my scales as pouring into the cartridge (into the hole in the expander die) wasn't hard.

I am very pleased with what I've learned how to do and extremely grateful for everything I learned from the generous advice everyone had to offer. Many thanks.

One final note is that shooting my Model 69 with .44 special was incredibly satisfying and fun in a way I hadn't really expected. Hickok45 had reported this in a YouTube review and he was absolutely correct. I did shoot 10 rounds of factory .44 magnum also and that was not fun but that's what I'll load in Montana and the woods in North Carolina.

The Lite Loads: I did my testing with my new loads in each caliber and decided to see if the lite loads I was going to abandon would make it out of the barrel. They actually all did, though they weren't as satisfying as the final loads I'd developed.

I am posting this same thanks in a different thread Lead, Jacketed, or Plated .44 Bullets where I also received some amazing advice.

Thanks again.

Larry

[jetinteriorguy]

Personally, I wouldn’t mess with the load you tried with the wadcutters. For their intended purpose as a target round I think that’s actually just a bit high but if it’s accurate then I’d leave it. Considering 2.8gr of Bullseye is kind of the standard I’d say 3.3gr of Titegroup is plenty.