Is it worth loading 40SW up to 10mm levels? - Page 3

totaldla · July 20, 2019, 02:12 PM

Na

totaldla · July 20, 2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammo.crafter

Buy a 10mm and forget about tyrying to make one gun shoot 2 cartridges...especially one that the gun was not made to fire.

Need a woods gun, buy a woods gun and be confident with that gun.

My woods handgun has been a S+W mod 57 (41mag) for the last 30 years and same has never failed to drop what I aimed at. Use 220gr cast lead with proper BHN as regards velocity of the load.

Please at least read the original post before posting.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 20, 2019, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totaldla

The 40SW SAAMI MAP is 35Kpsi. The 10mm SAAMI MAP is 37.5Kpsi. The 40SW isn't a "high pressure round" IMO. It's just another cartridge.

I just checked the current, on-line SAAMI pressure data, and they don't show an MAP for .40 S&W. It's listed as "N/E."

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

For comparison, though:

9mm Parabellum = 33,000
.38 Special +P = 20,000
.38 Super +P = 33,000
.380 ACP = 17,000
.45 ACP = 18,000

I think we can safely say that the .40 S&W, if it reaches the pressure you have indicated, is a "high pressure" round.

totaldla · July 20, 2019, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I just checked the current, on-line SAAMI pressure data, and they don't show an MAP for .40 S&W. It's listed as "N/E."

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

For comparison, though:

9mm Parabellum = 33,000
.38 Special +P = 20,000
.38 Super +P = 33,000
.380 ACP = 17,000
.45 ACP = 18,000

I think we can safely say that the .40 S&W, if it reaches the pressure you have indicated, is a "high pressure" round.

I just downloaded the saami chamber pressures. The map for 9mm is 35Kpsi, the map for 40sw is 35Kpsi.
You are looking at crusher data - none exists for 40sw.

74A95 · July 20, 2019, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I just checked the current, on-line SAAMI pressure data, and they don't show an MAP for .40 S&W. It's listed as "N/E."

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

I think we can safely say that the .40 S&W, if it reaches the pressure you have indicated, is a "high pressure" round.

See page 8 of the manual you posted a link to.

CUP units are pages 9 to 16.

psi units are pages 17 to 24.

74A95 · July 20, 2019, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totaldla

Thank you for trying this! ( my reloading gear is in storage right now).

Whose brass? Starline was used in the published data.

But the published data velocities were with a 4" barrel. Your data makes me think 1300+fps is not possible.

I used CCI brass for the Montana Gold bullet.

Not sure what I used for the Zero FMJ load. It turns out I did that test back in 2016, but had forgot about it.

I have not compared volume capacity of the different brass brands.

jmr40 · July 20, 2019, 07:54 PM

Here is a link to some writeups about various cartridges and penetration with heavy for caliber Underwood hardcast ammo. I've seen similar results from other manufacturers but this is a great source with lots of data in one place. You'll get similar results with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap.

The take away is that you need to be looking at heavy for caliber hardcast bullets and not try to shoot standard bullet weights faster. These are pretty fast loads for the bullet weight but the results would be pretty good even at slower impact speeds. The 40 only got 6" less penetration than the 10mm shooting the same 200 gr bullets 250 fps faster. And both penetrated nearly 5 FEET

And that is enough penetration to easily get to vitals on even the largest 4 legged predator. With any of the cartridges.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.c...y/field-loads/

Short version

200 gr 40 S&W @ 960 fps, 52" penetration

147 gr 9mm @ 1080 fps, 64"+ penetration. That was all the gel they had and the round wasn't recovered.

255 gr 45 ACP @ 890 fps, 53" penetration

200 gr 10mm @ 1200 fps, 58" penetration

220 gr 10mm @ 1150 fps, 60" penetration

Just for comparison 124 gr 9mm FMJ ammo only penetrated about 24".

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2019, 09:08 PM

A couple of points.

In theory, the perfect progressive powder that kept the pressure constant at its peak level until the bullet left the muzzle could produce velocities as high or higher than the 10 mm without exceeding 40 S&W peak pressure. It isn't a practical possibility, but I am mentioning it to be sure we distinguish between 10 mm bullet performance achieved by lower pressures and 10 mm cartridge pressures, which the 40 S&W cannot handle in guns commonly chambered for it, test barrels and TC Encores and the like notwithstanding.

Enforcer was designed to compete with magnum pistol powders, like 296/H110 and 300MP. If you fiddle with these powders in short powder spaces, the bullet has to move such a short distance to double the volume behind it that the growing space behind it (expansion) gets ahead of the speed with which the powder is making gas, so it never gets to magnum pressures. I tried this with some very heavy (325 grain) flat tip cast bullets in .44 Magnum one time and 100% case fill never passed about 25,000 psi, IIRC.

The above means using Enforcer in shorter (than magnum) pistol cases isn't particularly dangerous, but it is, as others have commented, a waste of powder due to much of the chemical energy in the powder never being converted to kinetic energy in the bullet. That's called poor ballistic efficiency. The excess powder, instead, winds up leaving the muzzle before it is done burning up. That should make for wonderful fireballs at night, but is mostly a waste of money for the shooter and increases recoil by throwing more powder weight out of the muzzle along with the bullet weight than a lighter charge of faster powder safely producing the same velocity would get you.

If you look them up, both Redding (GRx die) and Lee (Bulge Buster accessory for their Carbide Factory Crimp Die) have tools for ironing out pregnant 40 S&W cases. These occur in barrels that lack a fully supported chamber. Attempting to increase pressures in guns that already bulge cases is just asking for a gas leak to occur, especially if the case has been loaded and fired previously.

Note that SAAMI lists no +P load for this cartridge. +P is a SAAMI designation with a defined higher-than-original pressure and the fact none exists for this round probably reflects the concern with case bursting described in the last paragraph. Factories loading outside the SAAMI range use the +P+ designation so people know it is not a standard load and may not be safe in all guns. No attempt to load outside published information has been made here, so it's not a concern.

Please remember that if any such load is actually suggested in this thread, the post must start with the required warning in the sticky on the subject at the top of this forum.

For load density it is necessary to understand two different terms that differ by only one word:

Case Water Overflow Capacity (CWOC)

and

Case Water Capacity (CWC)

CWOC is the amount of water an empty case filled to its mouth holds. CWC is the amount of water that would fill the space in a case under a seated bullet with no powder present. CWOC is constant while CWC changes with bullet seating depth. Load Density (LD) is the percent of CWC taken up by powder. For the purpose of LD, the space between the grains of the powder are considered part of the powder, so the space the water could theoretically fill between powder grains is not counted, but is considered occupied.

Once LD reaches 100%, any additional powder causes the load to be compressed. Because the bullet squeezes the powder into the space between its grains and that space is considered part of the powder, the additional powder is said to exceed 100% load density even though the actual space under the bullet is unchanged. If I put 3% more powder into the case than will fit into its CWC and compress it down to the CWC volume, the load density is said to be 103%.

**44 AMP** · July 22, 2019, 03:48 AM

EXPANSION RATIO

why didn't any one (including myself) think of that earlier??

Thanks Uncle Nick!!

John0011 · July 23, 2019, 07:43 PM

As far as a gun for the woods goes, I would say a 44 mag.
I have a mp5 in 40 s&w I was able to get a 180 grain up to 1260 fps with some longshot, and that is with a 9 inch barrel. Probably could do better, but I didn't want to beat the thing up too bad.

I was looking into rebarreling it and the 10mm was an option, same everything except the barrel. Magazine, the hole rifle is the same.
That led me into looking up the 44 mag.
That is a wickedly powerful cartridge.

I would recommend a 44 mag.
I have checked out videos on utube comparing the 10mm to the 44mag.
44 mag is the way to go.

July 20, 2019, 02:12 PM	#51
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,297	Na __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube Last edited by totaldla; July 20, 2019 at 02:18 PM.

July 20, 2019, 07:54 PM	#57
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	Here is a link to some writeups about various cartridges and penetration with heavy for caliber Underwood hardcast ammo. I've seen similar results from other manufacturers but this is a great source with lots of data in one place. You'll get similar results with Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. The take away is that you need to be looking at heavy for caliber hardcast bullets and not try to shoot standard bullet weights faster. These are pretty fast loads for the bullet weight but the results would be pretty good even at slower impact speeds. The 40 only got 6" less penetration than the 10mm shooting the same 200 gr bullets 250 fps faster. And both penetrated nearly 5 FEET And that is enough penetration to easily get to vitals on even the largest 4 legged predator. With any of the cartridges. https://generalcartridge.wordpress.c...y/field-loads/ Short version 200 gr 40 S&W @ 960 fps, 52" penetration 147 gr 9mm @ 1080 fps, 64"+ penetration. That was all the gel they had and the round wasn't recovered. 255 gr 45 ACP @ 890 fps, 53" penetration 200 gr 10mm @ 1200 fps, 58" penetration 220 gr 10mm @ 1150 fps, 60" penetration Just for comparison 124 gr 9mm FMJ ammo only penetrated about 24". __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

July 21, 2019, 09:08 PM	#58
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	A couple of points. In theory, the perfect progressive powder that kept the pressure constant at its peak level until the bullet left the muzzle could produce velocities as high or higher than the 10 mm without exceeding 40 S&W peak pressure. It isn't a practical possibility, but I am mentioning it to be sure we distinguish between 10 mm bullet performance achieved by lower pressures and 10 mm cartridge pressures, which the 40 S&W cannot handle in guns commonly chambered for it, test barrels and TC Encores and the like notwithstanding. Enforcer was designed to compete with magnum pistol powders, like 296/H110 and 300MP. If you fiddle with these powders in short powder spaces, the bullet has to move such a short distance to double the volume behind it that the growing space behind it (expansion) gets ahead of the speed with which the powder is making gas, so it never gets to magnum pressures. I tried this with some very heavy (325 grain) flat tip cast bullets in .44 Magnum one time and 100% case fill never passed about 25,000 psi, IIRC. The above means using Enforcer in shorter (than magnum) pistol cases isn't particularly dangerous, but it is, as others have commented, a waste of powder due to much of the chemical energy in the powder never being converted to kinetic energy in the bullet. That's called poor ballistic efficiency. The excess powder, instead, winds up leaving the muzzle before it is done burning up. That should make for wonderful fireballs at night, but is mostly a waste of money for the shooter and increases recoil by throwing more powder weight out of the muzzle along with the bullet weight than a lighter charge of faster powder safely producing the same velocity would get you. If you look them up, both Redding (GRx die) and Lee (Bulge Buster accessory for their Carbide Factory Crimp Die) have tools for ironing out pregnant 40 S&W cases. These occur in barrels that lack a fully supported chamber. Attempting to increase pressures in guns that already bulge cases is just asking for a gas leak to occur, especially if the case has been loaded and fired previously. Note that SAAMI lists no +P load for this cartridge. +P is a SAAMI designation with a defined higher-than-original pressure and the fact none exists for this round probably reflects the concern with case bursting described in the last paragraph. Factories loading outside the SAAMI range use the +P+ designation so people know it is not a standard load and may not be safe in all guns. No attempt to load outside published information has been made here, so it's not a concern. Please remember that if any such load is actually suggested in this thread, the post must start with the required warning in the sticky on the subject at the top of this forum. For load density it is necessary to understand two different terms that differ by only one word: Case Water Overflow Capacity (CWOC) and Case Water Capacity (CWC) CWOC is the amount of water an empty case filled to its mouth holds. CWC is the amount of water that would fill the space in a case under a seated bullet with no powder present. CWOC is constant while CWC changes with bullet seating depth. Load Density (LD) is the percent of CWC taken up by powder. For the purpose of LD, the space between the grains of the powder are considered part of the powder, so the space the water could theoretically fill between powder grains is not counted, but is considered occupied. Once LD reaches 100%, any additional powder causes the load to be compressed. Because the bullet squeezes the powder into the space between its grains and that space is considered part of the powder, the additional powder is said to exceed 100% load density even though the actual space under the bullet is unchanged. If I put 3% more powder into the case than will fit into its CWC and compress it down to the CWC volume, the load density is said to be 103%. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 22, 2019, 03:48 AM	#59
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	EXPANSION RATIO why didn't any one (including myself) think of that earlier?? Thanks Uncle Nick!! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 23, 2019, 07:43 PM	#60
John0011 Member Join Date: March 28, 2015 Posts: 59	As far as a gun for the woods goes, I would say a 44 mag. I have a mp5 in 40 s&w I was able to get a 180 grain up to 1260 fps with some longshot, and that is with a 9 inch barrel. Probably could do better, but I didn't want to beat the thing up too bad. I was looking into rebarreling it and the 10mm was an option, same everything except the barrel. Magazine, the hole rifle is the same. That led me into looking up the 44 mag. That is a wickedly powerful cartridge. I would recommend a 44 mag. I have checked out videos on utube comparing the 10mm to the 44mag. 44 mag is the way to go.