Free vs paid reloading data.

[zeke]

Am always surprised when new manuals come out, and it appears a lot of the loads have been in there for literally decades. While all these people do things differently, a new manual seems to be for new powders in a select number of cartridges or newer cartridges.

Still waiting for an attachment so my rotary phone can "download", or work unplugged from the wall.

[RC20]

What we have not gotten into is the Bullet makers test with no eye to the powder product except it works and makes decent loads.

That is the one place you can see a lot of powders from all the mfgs and know they don't just force the bullet out the end of the barrel.

I can cross powders and get very close to velocity that another powder was ok to decent at and see if there is improvement for the load.

They all list what worked best in their gun. Not a given but something tolerant like the 06 its likely to be at least decent.

Happy to pay for that. I can fill in with new powders with notes if I want to (have on one occasion, liked the powder but not in 1 lb bottles)

[hounddawg]

I like to use both the bullet makers manual and the powder manufacturers data along with some internet forum research for pet loads. I always start with the most conservative and work up gradually looking for pressure signs

[Dufus]

The 1st manual that I bought was the Ideal #38. Got it at a garage sale. It was first published in 1951 according to the copyright listed in the book.

The next new one that I bought was the Speer #6.

Since then many have come along. I was never so disappointed when I bojught the Speer #14. Almost nothing changed from the last one they published.

I would guess that the last one I bought was a Nosler manual #8. I like it.

At this time and age, I don't think I will be buying any more for myself.

[RC20]

I have a Nossler, it was on sale! Have to look which one. Nice book, limited though to popular cartridges. I like to look at the other ones (am I sick, entertainment in cartridges I will never have?)

I got Hornady X as they are testing more of the newer powders.

With them I can get different mixes (will have to do an assessment and see how many changed between 8 and 10)

Still if it shot good years back it likely will now so having a collection is good. I was able to shoot a fair amount during the outage as R17 was listed in Hornady 8.

Aliants site does not give you much info and it sure does not tell you it shot fine in any caliber.

Like Houndawg, its a mix, and as long as its got newer data I will buy one (or wait until they come on sale, I think that is how I got Hornady 8

[reynolds357]

If you don't like the data that's available, then start working with wildcats.

I have plenty of them.

[Grey_Lion]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Ok, now I feel ...old... possibly neo-Luddite...

I don't have a computer at my loading bench. Not getting one, either. What do you do when the internet is down, or your screen dies, or computer fries, or when there's no electricity??

.

Hey 44 AMP - could we get load data on stone rounds? - hehehehe

[FrankenMauser]

I have Lyman, Western, Vitavhouri, Barnes, Speer downloaded to the computer at my reloading bench.

I also have a computer on the reloading bench.
It isn't neglected, left to its own devices, or ignored. It gets used daily.
I woke it up in late December, received a message, "Windows is installing an update...", and then watched it crash, reset, beat its head against the wall for 10 minutes, and then revert to a Blue Screen Of (near-) Death.

It took me almost five days to find the corrupt drivers and get it working again (thanks, unstoppable-automatic-even-though-you're-set-to-manual updates!).

In the mean time, my reloading manuals were easily accessible and were not having any issues with corrupt driver files...

If you don't like the data that's available, then start working with wildcats.

What's the problem, then?...

[reynolds357]

What's the problem, then?...
__________________

I know to to develop loads, I don't care to do it unless I have to.

[44 AMP]

Hey 44 AMP - could we get load data on stone rounds? - hehehehe

here ya go!
Black Powder only!
Place the stone in the palm of your hand, pour the powder over the stone until the stone is just covered by the pile. That's your load!

[higgite]

That's a load, alright.

[Geezerbiker]

I can take my tablet to my reloading room if needed but I have a folder full of load data that I've printed out off the net. I prefer to look at a piece of paper rather than a computer screen when reloading. I can then wright notes in the margin if needed and I don't have to look it up when needed. Sometimes I stash load data print outs in my loading books so it'll be near other data for that caliber...

Tony

[std7mag]

Reloading by candle light..
Good thing i have my wood stove nearby..

[RC20]

Lead pencil and paper is still by far the best way of logging info.

And I have electric lights and city water and all that nice stuff (dang even the neighbors are great)

[Old 454]

I have old Lyman loading books from the 40's and 50's... I have alot of the reloading manuals that are current.

You can never have enough information.
I love to re read my reloading manuals. I can always learn something.
And you can cross reference all kinds of data...

Buy them reloading manuals and enjoy them

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Western Powders will sell it. But it is also available free. See the top of this page for the Sticky of Official load data free downloads, online, etc.

That sticky is badly in need of maintenance. A LOT of the links are dead, resulting in 404 "Page not found" error messages.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

As a pistol only reloader I find a little bit of a different problem and that is with plated bullets that many have problems with.

Seeing that None of the plated bullet manufacturers actually do any testing of their product there is No data to be had from the bullet manufacturers. Instead they all rely on the generic statement to just use cast or jacketed data of the same weight. Sorry but in my mind that is no more than a CYA.

As a pistol shooter too, I can attest to the truth of this statement. I use almost exclusively Berry's plated bullets. Using their 230-grain round nose in .45 ACP, with what Winchester/Hodgdon says is a maximum load that should produce velocities in the high 800s, what I actually got was mid- to upper 700s.

The problem is what we have to keep telling the newcomers -- proper reloading data isn't just a powder charge, it's a "recipe" that includes a specific case, a specific primer, a specific bullet, and a specific charge of a specific powder. If you vary any of these ... you have a new recipe and you don't know what you're going to get.

Over on the M1911.org forum one of the reloading mavens started a project a few years back to try to quantify this (a bit). The issue, of course, is that not all bullets weighing 230 (or whatever) grains have the same shape and proportions. If you load only according to overall length, the case volume available for powder will change depending on the length of the bullet. So this guy started a project to collect and to make available as much dimensional information as he could on as many bullets as possible. There's a lot of data there, and it shows how much variation there can be even within bullets of the same weight.

The project also shows that people still don't get it. The project has been on-going for years. Just a couple of days ago somebody posted dimensional data for three "new" (to the project) bullets. But ... he omitted the critical dimension, which is the base dimension for the bullet.

Here's a link to the discussion of the project: https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.p...ns-Bullet-Data

And here's a link directly to the bullet data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=519572970

[rclark]

I simply like hard copy. Same with books. Rather read a paperback/hardback than look at a 'screen' any day of the week. As far as I can tell they never go out of date (just not the latest powder recommendations). Every one has 'some' useful information. Someone mentioned cell-phones above. I personally wouldn't own one, except my company requires me to use one. The land-line is perfect. If important, leave a message when I get home! Need to send a picture, email it. Don't see the need to be 'connected' all the time, waste of time and money.... Pet peeve is cell phones in driver's hands.... Off soapbox ... BTW, my job is programming/analyst .... go figure.

[Aguila Blanca]

More follow-up on "second tier" plated bullets. As previously commented, the smaller makers don't do any testing -- most likely because they can't afford either the equipment, or to pay for having it done. So they either provide nothing, or they provide garbage. Berry's is an excellent example. They sell good bullets for a good price, but DON'T believe what they tell you.

Case in point: .45 ACP, 200-grain plated, hollow-base, flat point. What Berry's web site tells us is:

The bullet profile is longer but the weight remains the same and you can load these bullets using any published load data for a jacketed bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet.

SAAMI MAX COL = 1.275"

So they want us to believe that a bullet with a hollow base (which means volume) should use the same load data as a bullet with a solid base. Hmmm.

And for cartridge overall length they provide the SAAMI maximum length for .45 ACP -- which is for a 230-grain round-nose bullet. Let's see how that works out in the real world.

Based on new data on the M1911.org site, the length of this bullet averages .5596". The person then split that into a base dimension (the portion with straight sides, that goes inside the case) and a nose dimension (what's left when you subtract the base from the bullet overall length). Base = .314", nose = .246".

To get a starting point for COAL, you add the case length to the bullet nose length. A .45 ACP case has a SAAMI maximum length of .898". If we add that to the average bullet nose length, we get a COAL of .898 + .246 = 1.144 inches.

That's quite a bit less than the SAAMI maximum COAL of 1.275". If you load these bullets to a COAL of 1.275" you'll be exposing 0.131" of the bullet base -- adding that much to the case volume behind the bullet. That has to have an effect on the muzzle velocity (and, quite possibly, the feeding).

[44 AMP]

A .45 ACP case has a SAAMI maximum length of .848".

I think you mis-typed. the .45acp max case length is .898"

I understand. and you are correct, that loading shorter bullets to the listed 1.275" does change the internal volume of the loaded round.

Now, there's two questions, (and specific to the .45acp), first why would you load to 1.275" if its not needed for function, and second, if you do, does the change in volume MATTER??

Something I'm seeing very often is people who seem to think they have to load to the listed COAL. They don't seem to understand that the max COAL is a limit, not a requirement. A lot of them also seem to think that SAAMI pressure limits are a "your gun will grenade if you pass this by any amount" limit, which, of course, they aren't.

What is the "right length" for a load?? There are SAAMI max length limits, there are given lengths for some bullets from their makers, and then there's what will work in your gun, and what works best in your gun (and those can be different).

Another point many don't seem aware of is that different rounds, and different guns don't always follow the same exact formulas for what works and what doesn't. Generally similar, but seldom identical, and that all loading data are guidelines not laws of nature that don't vary in the known universe.

You know those instructions on the box of whatever you're cooking, giving temp settings and times (25min @ 425degrees, etc.,) but ALSO say ovens vary so cooking times may vary....
(and then, there's also altitude variances...)

Guns vary, too.

[std7mag]

Come on 44AMP,
You know that changing case volume on small cases like 45ACP, or 9mm can have a huge effect!

Difference in pressure with same amount of powder in 45ACP going from COAL of 1.040" to the max of 1.275" is nothing to sneeze at.

[44 AMP]

changing case volume on small cases like 45ACP, or 9mm can have a huge effect!

Can is not Will. Sure, there will be AN effect, but whether or not its "huge" depends on a "huge" number of variables, unique to the specific situation. .45ACP and 9mm might be the "same" small cases compared to rifle rounds but they are quite different from each other.

Website A says one thing, Site B another, and a third might be the same as one of the first two, or something else, different from both. With tons of FREE data, having sources ranging from companies with lab grade testing equipment to any joker with a keyboard and Internet access, it can get confusing, fast.

Free is always good, right?? Except when free turns out to be worth what you paid for it.

I've always felt that printed manuals have a lower risk of "data entry error" than online data. I might be wrong, and I hope I am, but I know how easy it is to type 23 when you meant 32, so I'm always leery about data on screen having a greater error risk than data printed in manuals, where I feel they spend more time and effort ensuring what gets printed is what they meant to have printed and not a typo. But, that's just me.

All data includes some form of warning saying essentially "this is what we got, what you get could be different". I don't think enough people realize how different things can sometimes be.

[HiBC]

As far as case volume changing pressure on handgun reloads,its a valid point.

I suggest COAL is about fitting in the magazine and feeding,and it is subtly different than case volume.Not all 230 gr or 124 gr bullets are the same length.
Ogive shapes vary.

Its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume.

[weaselfire]

The difference between free online data and paid printed data is you paid for the printing. That's about it.

I had to track down a printed manual from the 1970's to get obsolete load data that wasn't available online.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[BBarn]

Just a couple points of clarification.

Originally Posted by HiBC

Its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume.

Mostly. However, for a given bullet base depth, combustion chamber volume is greater if the bullet base is concave or hollow.

Originally Posted by weaselfire

The difference between free online data and paid printed data is you paid for the printing. That's about it.

That is true for the free online data that's also been printed. Most of the data available in print form has been pressure tested. But some of the free online data that hasn't been made available in printed form hasn't been pressure tested either.