Trying to size 7.62x51 - Page 2

**Unclenick** · December 13, 2016, 10:00 PM

I think you are getting a handle on it and that Firewrench44 called the brass problem out correctly. Brass can become a spring when it is heavily expanded, and like putting a set on any spring, you have to bend it past the point you would be over-resizing brass of normal size and hardness. There's nothing wrong with the Lee die. It just wasn't designed to handle this more extreme problem.

A small base die should handle it. It is also possible to have it roll sized to correct size if you don't want to buy the die. Case prep services can be found online that can do this, though they will probably take your brass in exchange for some they've already done.

Bytesniffer · December 14, 2016, 07:51 AM

Unclenick,
Next time I order
Reloading supplies
I am definitely adding a small
Based die. I have to work out
This issue with the brass to
Understand it and it's part of
The learning process.
Also, I believe firewrench44 was right
About the small based die.
This thread did provide alot of info.
Images and reference material from
Everyone.

zeke · December 14, 2016, 08:14 AM

Bought once fired 308 /7.62 brass, once. The particular lot bought was not worth the effort or time for one firing. It took multiple steps to get it sized down. Scrapped the lot, and learnt better.

Of course not all machine gun chambers are the exact same, but betting they are oversize to begin with.

Have found the RCBS small base dies can size the shoulder down from brass shot through excessive headspace chamber, while Redding's doesn't do as well.

F. Guffey · December 14, 2016, 11:38 AM

Quote:

My rifle is chambered for 7.62x51
So I had been buying and firing
This ammo.
I understand the brass is thicker and less
Volume in cc , so powder load will
Be lower by several grains.
Also, I need to measure my headspace
In my rifle in preparation for hand loads
That are more tuned to my rifles
Chamber.

You had a good start, your fired new over the counter ammo and you reloaded the cases and then fired your reloads. After firing the new over the counter ammo you should know the length of the chamber and you should know the diameter of the chamber.

If you were using a comparator instead of a 'case head space gage' you would know the amount of sizing required to chamber your military surplus cases. And then there is that part about the case being heavier and or thicker or both; no one measures, they heard someone at the pool hall talking about thicker because it is heavier and from the beginning that could be a half truth.

And then there are volume masters, they decide what is important. I have always said the length of the powder column and diameter of the powder column was a factor so if the they are half correct the 7.62 case head can have a thinner case head with a thicker case body and still be heavier.

My favorite? I like a case with a thick case head and thin case body. Problem, if the case is thicker from the cup above the web to the case head and then I hammer this case with a heavy load I could have a problem sizing the case head meaning under normal circumstance the case head should increase in diameter .00025". One more time: Who measures? I have found case heads that expanded .002"

. If a reloader divided .00025" into .002" they would get 8. The 8 means the case head expanded 8 times greater during one firing than it should have.

I have small base dies, I have BAR dies, I have dies that are mistakes, the one thing I can not do with a die size the base of the case and the one thing reloaders do not understand about a small base die is the shell holder prevents the bottom .125" of the case can not be sized because of the deck height of the shell holder.

Back to thick case heads and upset, I have cases with .260" thick case heads, when I expand the thick case head I have trouble stuffing the case into the die. I like the thick case head because of case head protrusion and unsupported case head.

F. Guffey

JeepHammer · December 15, 2016, 02:08 PM

First off, good on you for knowing this is the first step!
Excellent to see someone that doesn't think they have everything down pat because they saw a video on YouTube!

Second, good on you again for buying & learning how to use a HEADSPACE gauge!
The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.
The 'Crunch & Shoot' guys can crank out rounds that go 'Boom' and most times not much else...
When you can bend brass back into a given specification, that takes skill and a through working knowledge of how things ACTUALLY WORK.

Third, milbrass is MUCH harder than civilian brass!
It resists sizing, so a STOUT press is often required,
And 'Spring Back' will drive you crazy...

The best advice I can give as a commercial volume case reconditioner,
When it comes to these blown out, excessively hard cases is to ANNEAL the neck, and deep into the shoulder/side of the case on the first sizing.

Instead of a 'Plumbers' torch, try one of the smaller 'Jet' style torches intended for soldering electrical components, or even butane cigar lighters.
MUCH more accurate.
Once you have THROUGHLY annealed the neck/shoulder (about 730*F will anneal 7.62 milbrass, use temperature color change paint (thermochomactic) or infrared pyrometer),
A lighter annealing (above 650*F) every 3 or 4 loadings will keep that brass pliable, and make it live MUCH longer now you have put the work into it...

Electrical annealing is MUCH faster, easier & more accurate, but runs $500 to $1,000 for retail units, so for a few hundred cases a 'Crack Pipe' lighter is a good deal.

Keep in mind the hardest thing you will fight is the case 'Bloat' just above the case floor, a BUNCH of retail dies won't reach this area...

Snyper · December 15, 2016, 06:17 PM

Quote:

The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.

That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.
They just need brass that fits their own gun.

JeepHammer · December 15, 2016, 06:57 PM

See, the 'Crunch & Shoot' guys are everywhere...
Learned just enough to be dangerous & think they know it all...
They never just admit they can NOT make a specification case and be done with it...

The 'Best' way to get a 7.62 milbrass back into shape is a case roller & dies,
Cost prohibitive, about $1,500.
Takes a LOT of cases to justify one of these!

If you have a STOUT press, you *Can* get a .30-06 die, grind a little off the bottom & resize the sides/lower of the 7.62 brass.
The .30-06 die won't size neck or shoulder, you are only looking to get down far enough to push the 'Bloat' back in where it belongs.
I'm not trying to sell it as a 'Home Game', but it's worked before...
Use a SIZED brass, one that doesn't currently fit in the case gauge,
Keep taking a very little amount at a time off the bottom opening of the die until shell holder contact produces a brass that will fit in the case gauge.

Remember! When you push the bloat back in, the shoulder/neck will move forward making the case LONGER, so you WILL have to resize with 7.62 die between tries at the case gauge.

This is like removing the crimp, you will usually only have to do it upon initial processing.

One costly option, but cheaper than a case roller, is bushed competition dies.
Simply leave the shoulder/neck bushing out of the die & 'Bump' cases into shape.
Again, this isn't an option I care for since you *Might* have to grind some of the bottom of the die away to get what you want done accomplished...
That will pretty much ruin the die for anything else.
A $30 .30-06 die is acceptable, $230 competition die is not acceptable to me...

F. Guffey · December 17, 2016, 04:36 PM

Quote:

The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.

That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.
They just need brass that fits their own gun.

Snyper, I agree. Basic shop skills and a few tools and then there is that tendency to take off in a dead run, some would lead a new reloader grinding is the answer. I always ask: Grind where? and then there is Why?

I have never ground the top of a shell holder or bottom of a die because I have never found it necessary. I have found cases that had more resistance to sizing than my press, die and lube could overcome. And then there is that part about the top of the shell holder making it to the bottom of the die. Anyhow, the deck height of the shell holder is .0125". If a reloader can remove the die with the shell holder from the press and have the ability to measure case head protrusion they can determine if the case is sized because the case head will be protruding from the die .125".

But if they go to grinding on the shell holder and die they will not have a clue, and then they will require counseling.

F. Guffey

Snyper · December 17, 2016, 09:17 PM

Quote:

They never just admit they can NOT make a specification case and be done with it...

Reread my post.

I never said it couldn't be done.
I said it wasn't necessary for most people.

Jimro · December 18, 2016, 03:25 AM

I think the only reason to make a specification round is if you are in the ammo manufacturing business.

Hence the reason why most "crunch and shoot" (why do I find that perjorative?) reloaders don't bother making specification rounds, just ammo that works in the firearms they need to feed.

Jimro

Marco Califo · December 18, 2016, 09:18 AM

Reloaders only need to produce on-spec ammo when they are feeding more than one gun using the same cartridge, and they expect the ammo to be interchangeable.

F. Guffey · December 18, 2016, 12:02 PM

Snyper said:

Quote:

Reread my post.

,

Quote:

That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.

Need to learn: I do what I can to prevent a new reloader from jumping into reloading in a dead run. I understand; reloaders have their favorite tools and most sentences start with "You have to have this tool or that tool", and like Randy Newman said; "No you don't, you don't gotta do nothing". The full length sizing die with a shell holder and press collectively have a design. The design is to produce minimum length/full length sized cases. Reloaders that have jumped into reloading in a dead run have no clue what minimum length/full length sized cases are; and that goes for the choir. The answer to failure to chamber is not 'grind the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die'.

I know; most are confused but if the reloader is not producing minimum length full length sized cases they should be able to determine why. And then there are threads. For the most part the reloader, old and new, is dealing with the 7/8 by 14 tpi; one turn is equal to .071428 and 1/4 turn is .01785. After that is the assumption the press is solid and does not flex and no one ask 'what press are you using?'.

I have cases that are tough to size, my tough to size cases have resistance to sizing; to size my tough to size cases my press must have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I am not hard headed, I know when the case wins.

And then there are those mean old machine gun fired 308/7.62 NATO cases.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · December 18, 2016, 01:49 PM

If you fire new cases in your own gun, with rare exceptions, a properly set up standard sizing die will resize it more than adequately. Most problems come from resizing cases someone else shot first.

When the DCM still existed, I collected a fair amount of .30-06 brass at their matches, but the brass policing was haphazard enough that I would get some cases that hadn't come from my gun. These were all from issued Lake City ammunition. But after I got them home, I found they would come out of my Redding resizing die with up to about 0.005" difference in head-to-shoulder length. If you throw machine gun fired cases into the mix, that number gets bigger.

For the above reasons, it isn't a bad idea to suggest new reloaders stick to brass that was fired for the first time in their chamber. Then, with rare exceptions, all they have to do to get working loads is follow book instructions until everything about the process becomes familiar. At that point they are then in a position to tackle special problems and that's a better time to start looking at once-fired brass.

Jimro · December 18, 2016, 02:03 PM

Yeah, if someone had told me to either buy virgin brass or only reload ammo I'd shot through my rifle my learning curve would have been a tad shallower. But you gotta learn at some point, and it is much easier not to get good information on how to reload milsurp brass than at any other point in history.

Jimro

F. Guffey · December 18, 2016, 02:41 PM

Purchasing brass; my favorite brass is brass shot in someone else's rifle with a trashy old chamber. Manufacturers will not sell cases that are too long from the shoulder to the case head to reloaders that know what they are doing. That leaves me to purchase once fired cases that will not chamber in my rifles. I know, most are confused but I find it difficult to move the shoulder, I do not have a problem decreasing the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head; I do have a problem with moving the shoulder.

Again, I have spent time at the firing range measuring the length of cases from the shoulder to the case head. At the time I paid 8¢ each with 10 free cases if I purchased 100 cases.

And then there is my trashy old M1917, the chamber in my Eddystone is .002" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a field reject length gage; for me that is not a problem, I use 280 Remington cases that are longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a 30/06 case. The difference between the two lengths is .051"; and I ask how; how canI miss?

F. Guffey

Bytesniffer · December 20, 2016, 04:17 PM

Well everyone,
This is phase two of my
Attempt to resize the
7.62x. 51 wcc / WMA
Brass.
I purchase a new redding
308 small based FL die and
For the hell of it, an rcbs
308 full sizing die.

Ran the unsized brass through
My new rcbs die.
No change. Adjust it down
A little more, run it down
Again. No change.
Still sticks up passed max
On Wilson gauge.
Also, very tight in 308 savage
Chamber. Last 1/4 in I have
To press it.
Length is 2.0045
Headspace 1.636
Now take that piece of brass
And put it through my
Redding small bass die
Lube it up good. Adjusted
As specified.
No change
Brass will not go below
Max of Wilson gauge
Headspace reads 1.636
Max is 1.634 from datum

If I adjust die down to much
It pushes shoulder in, big dent
Back off a little, no change.

I guess it just springs back
Also the cases that I put through
The small die that's makes the small
Dimple on the neck reads 1.630 and
Chambers in 308 OK.
It will form to chamber when fired.

Reloadron · December 20, 2016, 05:58 PM

I have some WCC 10 brass sitting here which head to datum on shoulder measures 1.640 to 1.645 so my guess is this stuff likely went through a machine gun. Hell, to get these cases in a Wilson or Forrester case gauge is a project unto itself telling me at the base the case diameter is well beyond SAAMI specifications. That said I can run this stuff, as oversize as it is through any of several .308 Winchester sizing dies I have and the brass resizes fine. That includes chambering just fine in any of several .308 Winchester or 7.62 x 51 NATO chambers I have and that is without using a small base die.

Reading through this thread I can't figure out what is not working for you. You have tried several sets of dies including small base dies and dies from a few manufacturers. I can't figure out what is being missed but we are missing something here. You have even tried a shim in the shell holder. Have you tried more than one shell holder? There are only so many possibles which could be wrong and you have hit on just about all of them. I know this is frustrating but hang in there.

I see Long Island? Give my regards to Long Island, I grew up in Uniondale many, many years ago.

Ron

F. Guffey · December 20, 2016, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Ran the unsized brass through
My new rcbs die.
No change. Adjust it down
A little more, run it down
Again. No change.
Still sticks up passed max
On Wilson gauge.
Also, very tight in 308 savage
Chamber. Last 1/4 in I have
To press it.
Length is 2.0045
Headspace 1.636
Now take that piece of brass
And put it through my
Redding small bass die
Lube it up good. Adjusted
As specified.
No change
Brass will not go below
Max of Wilson gauge
Headspace reads 1.636
Max is 1.634 from datum

If I adjust the die to size a case to minimum length/full length my press sizes the case to minimum length. If my press fails to size the case there will be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. And if I use too much lube I get dents on the shoulder. I have small base dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.

The small base die does not size the base of the case, the shell holder with a deck height of .125" prevents the base of the case from getting sized, meaning the base of the die is small. I am not the fan of reloaders talking new reloaders into purchasing tools they do not need.

F. Guffey

Bytesniffer · December 20, 2016, 08:51 PM

Reloadron,guffey
I was really hoping someone
Would spot what I missed.
I watch YouTube videos
Of someone resizing ,trimming
7.62 brass and I can see the same
Dents from a MG as my brass.
I really thought that a new full length
Die and small base die would do it.
I am so confused by this.
Is annealing the answer ?

I just want to understand this.
Don't care about brass, dies etc.

I measure the 7.62 Brass I fired in my
Rifle.
It measures 1.624 with hornady headspace
Gauge.
It seems so easy for people to buy one fired military brass process it and
No issues.

Bytesniffer · December 20, 2016, 09:07 PM

The only thing I haven't changed
Is the #2 Lee shell holder

I'm the morning I'm just for
Fun I'm going to heat
A case up really hot , dump
It in cold water then try resizing ?

Reloadron · December 20, 2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

The only thing I haven't changed
Is the #2 Lee shell holder

I'm the morning I'm just for
Fun I'm going to heat
A case up really hot , dump
It in cold water then try resizing ?

Not a good idea. Annealing a case neck is one thing but annealing an entire case, not so much. You don't want to do that. I can't imagine brass with a spring back as much as what it would need in this case. I took a few pieces of the brass I mentioned earlier, the WCC 10 which is about 1.640" to 1.645" and resized it. I just used a generic RCBS resizing die, not small base or anything special. I know from past experience that all I need is run the die down till it bumps the shell holder and snug it. This gives me 1.630" brass as measured with my RCBS Precision Mic set.If I add 1/8 turn not too bad but adding 1/4 turn will buckle the shoulders and make ugly brass. I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter.

Anyway, if you just want to anneal a case neck or two using a blow torch have at it but do not toast an entire case. A simple Google of "annealing case necks" should give some simple examples of using a propane torch and annealing the necks. I would look at trying a different shell holder too. While I have never seen a bad shell holder I would not rule it out.

Ron

Marco Califo · December 20, 2016, 11:50 PM

I like a lot of Lee products.
Not their shellhoders.
Lee makes 25 shellholder sizes. And their chart indicates "x or y" for certain calibers, and I saw one that gave two #'s with notations for "snug" and "loose". My point is that they like to make fewer generic sizes, that fit "well enough".
http://leeprecision.com/universal-pr...l-holders.html
I have decided "well enough" is not good enough for me, and I order Redding (if on sale), RCBS, or Lyman shell holders (usually as spares, for different presses, in different places), of the specific size for my calibers. RCBS has 56 different basic single stage shellholder sizes.
7.62/308 is one of the calibers where I have 3 - 4 different brands of shell holders. The Lee one might get used for priming. IIRC, years ago, the Lee ripped the rim off some LC while sizing. Redding has closer tolerances and no shell wobble. I always seem to have noticeable wobble in Lee shell holders.

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

I know from past experience that all I need is run the die down till it bumps the shell holder and snug it. This gives me 1.630" brass as measured with my RCBS Precision Mic set.If I add 1/8 turn not too bad but adding 1/4 turn will buckle the shoulders and make ugly brass. I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter

You should get your money back from the die manufacturer. There is no way a standard/precision set of dies from RCBS can buckle a 308 case and or a 7.62 NATO case. NOW! if by mistake you picked up a 30/06 case and slid it into the shell holder and then raised the ram you can count on it. I use forming dies when going from 30/06 to 308W and then it is necessary to use a full length sizing die.

A full length sizing die can not shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head more than minimum length. By design the distance from the shoulder of the case to the deck of the shell holder is limited by the contact between the deck of the shell holder and shoulder of the die. And I suggest you measure the deck height of the shell holder; the deck height of my shell holders is .125".

I verify dies and shell holders' when verifying the 308 W die and shell holder I place a go-gage into the die with a shell holder. If I got my moneys worth when I purchased them I will have a .004" gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. I understand how difficult it is for many reloaders to accept the feeler gage. There are other options; a reloader with shop skills can measure the go-gage protrusion from the die; the protrusion should be .004", that leaves the shell holder; all a shell holder can do is have a deck height of .125".

F. Guffey

So, we go back to 'too much lube'.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 11:19 AM

Quote:

I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter

What is so difficult to understand about shell holders, the deck height should be .125". I have been told the manufacturer of the die and shell holder must match; it leaves me to believe no one has a height gage or has the skill to measure.

F. Guffey

Bytesniffer · December 21, 2016, 11:32 AM

I am very happy to report that my
Error was when I first started this thread
And it was suggested I anneal this
MG fired brass , unfortunately I
Just didn't heat the brass enough.
Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.
Now the brass fits below max on
Wilson gauge. Reads 1.624 to
1.628 in headspace gauge.
Also I used full length sizing die,
Not the small base die.
I have brass for along time now.
It was suggested in videos I watched
This morning that after a few firing and reloading, anneal the brass again to
Extend its life.
I'll have to set something up better
Then holding a drill up to a flame.
Maybe I'll go to home depot and buy
Map gas , it hotter cut my time down to
Ten sec ?
I definitely appreciate everyone's
Info . lots of go stuff in this thread.
As frustrating as it was I definitely
Learned a lot.

December 13, 2016, 10:00 PM	#26
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I think you are getting a handle on it and that Firewrench44 called the brass problem out correctly. Brass can become a spring when it is heavily expanded, and like putting a set on any spring, you have to bend it past the point you would be over-resizing brass of normal size and hardness. There's nothing wrong with the Lee die. It just wasn't designed to handle this more extreme problem. A small base die should handle it. It is also possible to have it roll sized to correct size if you don't want to buy the die. Case prep services can be found online that can do this, though they will probably take your brass in exchange for some they've already done. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 14, 2016, 08:14 AM	#28
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Bought once fired 308 /7.62 brass, once. The particular lot bought was not worth the effort or time for one firing. It took multiple steps to get it sized down. Scrapped the lot, and learnt better. Of course not all machine gun chambers are the exact same, but betting they are oversize to begin with. Have found the RCBS small base dies can size the shoulder down from brass shot through excessive headspace chamber, while Redding's doesn't do as well. Last edited by zeke; December 15, 2016 at 08:07 AM.

December 18, 2016, 03:25 AM	#35
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I think the only reason to make a specification round is if you are in the ammo manufacturing business. Hence the reason why most "crunch and shoot" (why do I find that perjorative?) reloaders don't bother making specification rounds, just ammo that works in the firearms they need to feed. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 18, 2016, 09:18 AM	#36
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,602	Reloaders only need to produce on-spec ammo when they are feeding more than one gun using the same cartridge, and they expect the ammo to be interchangeable. __________________ ............

December 18, 2016, 01:49 PM	#38
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If you fire new cases in your own gun, with rare exceptions, a properly set up standard sizing die will resize it more than adequately. Most problems come from resizing cases someone else shot first. When the DCM still existed, I collected a fair amount of .30-06 brass at their matches, but the brass policing was haphazard enough that I would get some cases that hadn't come from my gun. These were all from issued Lake City ammunition. But after I got them home, I found they would come out of my Redding resizing die with up to about 0.005" difference in head-to-shoulder length. If you throw machine gun fired cases into the mix, that number gets bigger. For the above reasons, it isn't a bad idea to suggest new reloaders stick to brass that was fired for the first time in their chamber. Then, with rare exceptions, all they have to do to get working loads is follow book instructions until everything about the process becomes familiar. At that point they are then in a position to tackle special problems and that's a better time to start looking at once-fired brass. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 14, 2016, 07:51 AM	#27
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	Unclenick, Next time I order Reloading supplies I am definitely adding a small Based die. I have to work out This issue with the brass to Understand it and it's part of The learning process. Also, I believe firewrench44 was right About the small based die. This thread did provide alot of info. Images and reference material from Everyone.

December 15, 2016, 02:08 PM	#30
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	First off, good on you for knowing this is the first step! Excellent to see someone that doesn't think they have everything down pat because they saw a video on YouTube! Second, good on you again for buying & learning how to use a HEADSPACE gauge! The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round. The 'Crunch & Shoot' guys can crank out rounds that go 'Boom' and most times not much else... When you can bend brass back into a given specification, that takes skill and a through working knowledge of how things ACTUALLY WORK. Third, milbrass is MUCH harder than civilian brass! It resists sizing, so a STOUT press is often required, And 'Spring Back' will drive you crazy... The best advice I can give as a commercial volume case reconditioner, When it comes to these blown out, excessively hard cases is to ANNEAL the neck, and deep into the shoulder/side of the case on the first sizing. Instead of a 'Plumbers' torch, try one of the smaller 'Jet' style torches intended for soldering electrical components, or even butane cigar lighters. MUCH more accurate. Once you have THROUGHLY annealed the neck/shoulder (about 730F will anneal 7.62 milbrass, use temperature color change paint (thermochomactic) or infrared pyrometer), A lighter annealing (above 650F) every 3 or 4 loadings will keep that brass pliable, and make it live MUCH longer now you have put the work into it... Electrical annealing is MUCH faster, easier & more accurate, but runs $500 to $1,000 for retail units, so for a few hundred cases a 'Crack Pipe' lighter is a good deal. Keep in mind the hardest thing you will fight is the case 'Bloat' just above the case floor, a BUNCH of retail dies won't reach this area...

December 15, 2016, 06:57 PM	#32
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	See, the 'Crunch & Shoot' guys are everywhere... Learned just enough to be dangerous & think they know it all... They never just admit they can NOT make a specification case and be done with it... The 'Best' way to get a 7.62 milbrass back into shape is a case roller & dies, Cost prohibitive, about $1,500. Takes a LOT of cases to justify one of these! If you have a STOUT press, you Can get a .30-06 die, grind a little off the bottom & resize the sides/lower of the 7.62 brass. The .30-06 die won't size neck or shoulder, you are only looking to get down far enough to push the 'Bloat' back in where it belongs. I'm not trying to sell it as a 'Home Game', but it's worked before... Use a SIZED brass, one that doesn't currently fit in the case gauge, Keep taking a very little amount at a time off the bottom opening of the die until shell holder contact produces a brass that will fit in the case gauge. Remember! When you push the bloat back in, the shoulder/neck will move forward making the case LONGER, so you WILL have to resize with 7.62 die between tries at the case gauge. This is like removing the crimp, you will usually only have to do it upon initial processing. One costly option, but cheaper than a case roller, is bushed competition dies. Simply leave the shoulder/neck bushing out of the die & 'Bump' cases into shape. Again, this isn't an option I care for since you Might have to grind some of the bottom of the die away to get what you want done accomplished... That will pretty much ruin the die for anything else. A $30 .30-06 die is acceptable, $230 competition die is not acceptable to me...

December 18, 2016, 02:03 PM	#39
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Yeah, if someone had told me to either buy virgin brass or only reload ammo I'd shot through my rifle my learning curve would have been a tad shallower. But you gotta learn at some point, and it is much easier not to get good information on how to reload milsurp brass than at any other point in history. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 18, 2016, 02:41 PM	#40
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Purchasing brass; my favorite brass is brass shot in someone else's rifle with a trashy old chamber. Manufacturers will not sell cases that are too long from the shoulder to the case head to reloaders that know what they are doing. That leaves me to purchase once fired cases that will not chamber in my rifles. I know, most are confused but I find it difficult to move the shoulder, I do not have a problem decreasing the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head; I do have a problem with moving the shoulder. Again, I have spent time at the firing range measuring the length of cases from the shoulder to the case head. At the time I paid 8¢ each with 10 free cases if I purchased 100 cases. And then there is my trashy old M1917, the chamber in my Eddystone is .002" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a field reject length gage; for me that is not a problem, I use 280 Remington cases that are longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a 30/06 case. The difference between the two lengths is .051"; and I ask how; how canI miss? F. Guffey

December 20, 2016, 04:17 PM	#41
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	Well everyone, This is phase two of my Attempt to resize the 7.62x. 51 wcc / WMA Brass. I purchase a new redding 308 small based FL die and For the hell of it, an rcbs 308 full sizing die. Ran the unsized brass through My new rcbs die. No change. Adjust it down A little more, run it down Again. No change. Still sticks up passed max On Wilson gauge. Also, very tight in 308 savage Chamber. Last 1/4 in I have To press it. Length is 2.0045 Headspace 1.636 Now take that piece of brass And put it through my Redding small bass die Lube it up good. Adjusted As specified. No change Brass will not go below Max of Wilson gauge Headspace reads 1.636 Max is 1.634 from datum If I adjust die down to much It pushes shoulder in, big dent Back off a little, no change. I guess it just springs back Also the cases that I put through The small die that's makes the small Dimple on the neck reads 1.630 and Chambers in 308 OK. It will form to chamber when fired. Last edited by Bytesniffer; December 20, 2016 at 05:35 PM.

December 20, 2016, 05:58 PM	#42
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	I have some WCC 10 brass sitting here which head to datum on shoulder measures 1.640 to 1.645 so my guess is this stuff likely went through a machine gun. Hell, to get these cases in a Wilson or Forrester case gauge is a project unto itself telling me at the base the case diameter is well beyond SAAMI specifications. That said I can run this stuff, as oversize as it is through any of several .308 Winchester sizing dies I have and the brass resizes fine. That includes chambering just fine in any of several .308 Winchester or 7.62 x 51 NATO chambers I have and that is without using a small base die. Reading through this thread I can't figure out what is not working for you. You have tried several sets of dies including small base dies and dies from a few manufacturers. I can't figure out what is being missed but we are missing something here. You have even tried a shim in the shell holder. Have you tried more than one shell holder? There are only so many possibles which could be wrong and you have hit on just about all of them. I know this is frustrating but hang in there. I see Long Island? Give my regards to Long Island, I grew up in Uniondale many, many years ago. Ron

December 20, 2016, 08:51 PM	#44
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	Reloadron,guffey I was really hoping someone Would spot what I missed. I watch YouTube videos Of someone resizing ,trimming 7.62 brass and I can see the same Dents from a MG as my brass. I really thought that a new full length Die and small base die would do it. I am so confused by this. Is annealing the answer ? I just want to understand this. Don't care about brass, dies etc. I measure the 7.62 Brass I fired in my Rifle. It measures 1.624 with hornady headspace Gauge. It seems so easy for people to buy one fired military brass process it and No issues.

December 20, 2016, 09:07 PM	#45
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	The only thing I haven't changed Is the #2 Lee shell holder I'm the morning I'm just for Fun I'm going to heat A case up really hot , dump It in cold water then try resizing ?

December 20, 2016, 11:50 PM	#47
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,602	Might be the shellholder I like a lot of Lee products. Not their shellhoders. Lee makes 25 shellholder sizes. And their chart indicates "x or y" for certain calibers, and I saw one that gave two #'s with notations for "snug" and "loose". My point is that they like to make fewer generic sizes, that fit "well enough". http://leeprecision.com/universal-pr...l-holders.html I have decided "well enough" is not good enough for me, and I order Redding (if on sale), RCBS, or Lyman shell holders (usually as spares, for different presses, in different places), of the specific size for my calibers. RCBS has 56 different basic single stage shellholder sizes. 7.62/308 is one of the calibers where I have 3 - 4 different brands of shell holders. The Lee one might get used for priming. IIRC, years ago, the Lee ripped the rim off some LC while sizing. Redding has closer tolerances and no shell wobble. I always seem to have noticeable wobble in Lee shell holders. __________________ ............