Another quite nice Gun Show today

Doc Hoy · March 22, 2014, 05:21 PM

Gun show in Hampton VA was very well attended by vendors. Five or six different ammunition folks and all had plenty of ammunition.

I picked up a French MAB Model D in 32 ACP for 200.00.

I think the single drawback is the after market grips.

Replacement OEM grips are 45.00.

I am seriously thinking about it.

Doc Hoy · March 22, 2014, 05:52 PM

...The serial number in the starboard side of the frame. The D prefix means it was a Customs Agent pistol.

This pistol is in excellent condition with one blemish in the finish on the right side of the frame just below the last digit of the SN. There is also a much less obvious blemish on the left side of the slide just under the letters EVE in the word BREVETE.

It is a type two which means post 1945 production.

I would be happy for some comments from the historians in the group regarding the quality of this pistol.

James K · March 22, 2014, 09:51 PM

Those guns are good quality and very reliable, though the .32 ACP is often considered somewhat less than a powerhouse. The grips with the thumb rest were put on by the importer to gain enough "points" to get the gun into the country. There is a bit of a gray area as to whether an owner is allowed to put on original type grips or to grind down the thumb rest.

Jim

Doc Hoy · March 22, 2014, 11:49 PM

Thanks...

Are you saying there is some law against restoring the pistol to its original configuration?

How would such a rule be enforced?

Doc Hoy · March 23, 2014, 06:06 AM

Just read through the Importation requirements following GCA 68.

Talks about the point values for importation of pistols and application of form 4590 and 5330.5

Points have to reach 75 and no matter how I calculate the points I come up with just under 75 even with the "target grips (5 points). I do admit there is plenty that I do not know about this process including points I am missing in my count. But in my under-informed opinion I would say the pistol does not qualify without the grips that are on it. SO I now understand why you say the grips were added to get the pistol to qualify.

But I read nothing in the form or the guiding document that states that the pistol may not be modified post importation by persons who acquire the pistol subsequent to importation.

What other documentation or statutes exist that would apply to this situation?

Doc Hoy · March 23, 2014, 06:14 AM

This pistol does not appear to have a spring which ejects the empty magazine when the release button is depressed.

The magazine comes out easily and the absence of the spring does not inhibit operation.

Others who own or have examined a Model D. Do they have such a spring? Is mine busticated?

**Mike Irwin** · March 23, 2014, 08:34 AM

"Are you saying there is some law against restoring the pistol to its original configuration?"

Absolutely not.

To import a gun into the United States it must accrue a certain number of "points" on a BATFE scale based on its physical attributes -- size, weight, frame composition, caliber, etc.

Some guns, like this little MAB and even the Makarov, come close, but need an extra points boost, so the importers put the thumbshelf "target" grips on them.

Often, they would be imported with the standard issue grips right in the box.

Once a gun is in the country, you can put the original grips back on it.

PetahW · March 23, 2014, 12:59 PM

.

IMO, that MAB looks like a pretty close copy of a (my) .380 Browning Model 1955.

.

James K · March 23, 2014, 01:44 PM

Hi, Mike and Doc,

At this time, I can find nothing that says it is not OK to replace those "import" grips with the normal OEM grips or copies.

But either my memory is faulty or that might not have always been the case. IIRC, there was a law or ruling that banned an imported gun from being altered to a non-importable gun. As of now, that does not seem to apply to handguns.

BTW, I think you will find they gained a few points by replacing the original rear sight with a drift adjustable "target" sight.

Jim

Doc Hoy · March 23, 2014, 02:21 PM

Yes. The altered rear sight got them some points.

That is another thing that is going away.

It does make sense that modifying a pistol in a way that would reduce its points below importability is a thing the feds would want folks to avoid.

Here is a question: Was every pistol manufactured in the U.S. following 1968 able to achieve 75 points? Putting it a different way, "Were we banning the importation of pistols that we were manufacturing here? I worked for the federal government for 26 years and my experience tells me that the government would be that dumb.

**Mike Irwin** · March 23, 2014, 03:04 PM

" IIRC, there was a law or ruling that banned an imported gun from being altered to a non-importable gun."

Jim,

You may be thinking about the importation of SKS rifles that had had the bayonets removed.

A lot of people were putting them back on, and ATF came out with a directive that said that putting the bayonet back constituted manufacturing a banned weapon.

As far as I know, that applied only to semi-auto rifles like the SKS that would have had a fixed (non detachable) bayonet.

PetahW · March 23, 2014, 06:14 PM

.

The law applied to only imported guns, which had to meet the points criteria, and not US-made guns (which were not imports) - American-made guns could be made any way the maker decided to market them.

.

James K · March 26, 2014, 04:05 PM

Hi, Mike and guys,

Apologies for my sometimes faulty memory. In defense, I can only say that at almost 81, I have seen so many laws, would-be laws, repealed laws, changed laws, proposals, and sheer insanity that I sometimes get confused as to what is and what is not law today.

At one point, there was a proposal to ban all imported "non-sporting" guns, including all handguns, on the grounds that once in the country, imports were being altered to a configuration that could not be imported. Handguns were certainly mentioned at the time, but perhaps the end result was the ban Mike mentioned on semi-auto rifles.

At least the proposal to have the government execute "without the nonsense of a trial, anyone who ever owned a gun or any of whose ancestors ever owned a gun" was not adopted, or none of us would be around today.

Jim

March 22, 2014, 05:21 PM	#1
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Another quite nice Gun Show today Gun show in Hampton VA was very well attended by vendors. Five or six different ammunition folks and all had plenty of ammunition. I picked up a French MAB Model D in 32 ACP for 200.00. I think the single drawback is the after market grips. Replacement OEM grips are 45.00. I am seriously thinking about it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 22, 2014, 05:52 PM	#2
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	You can see... ...The serial number in the starboard side of the frame. The D prefix means it was a Customs Agent pistol. This pistol is in excellent condition with one blemish in the finish on the right side of the frame just below the last digit of the SN. There is also a much less obvious blemish on the left side of the slide just under the letters EVE in the word BREVETE. It is a type two which means post 1945 production. I would be happy for some comments from the historians in the group regarding the quality of this pistol. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 22, 2014, 11:49 PM	#4
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	James K Thanks... Are you saying there is some law against restoring the pistol to its original configuration? How would such a rule be enforced? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 23, 2014, 06:06 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	A day is not wasted upon which I learn something Just read through the Importation requirements following GCA 68. Talks about the point values for importation of pistols and application of form 4590 and 5330.5 Points have to reach 75 and no matter how I calculate the points I come up with just under 75 even with the "target grips (5 points). I do admit there is plenty that I do not know about this process including points I am missing in my count. But in my under-informed opinion I would say the pistol does not qualify without the grips that are on it. SO I now understand why you say the grips were added to get the pistol to qualify. But I read nothing in the form or the guiding document that states that the pistol may not be modified post importation by persons who acquire the pistol subsequent to importation. What other documentation or statutes exist that would apply to this situation? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; March 23, 2014 at 06:32 AM.

March 23, 2014, 06:14 AM	#6
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	How about some opinions on the magazine release... This pistol does not appear to have a spring which ejects the empty magazine when the release button is depressed. The magazine comes out easily and the absence of the spring does not inhibit operation. Others who own or have examined a Model D. Do they have such a spring? Is mine busticated? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 22, 2014, 09:51 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those guns are good quality and very reliable, though the .32 ACP is often considered somewhat less than a powerhouse. The grips with the thumb rest were put on by the importer to gain enough "points" to get the gun into the country. There is a bit of a gray area as to whether an owner is allowed to put on original type grips or to grind down the thumb rest. Jim

March 23, 2014, 08:34 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Are you saying there is some law against restoring the pistol to its original configuration?" Absolutely not. To import a gun into the United States it must accrue a certain number of "points" on a BATFE scale based on its physical attributes -- size, weight, frame composition, caliber, etc. Some guns, like this little MAB and even the Makarov, come close, but need an extra points boost, so the importers put the thumbshelf "target" grips on them. Often, they would be imported with the standard issue grips right in the box. Once a gun is in the country, you can put the original grips back on it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 23, 2014, 12:59 PM	#8
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. IMO, that MAB looks like a pretty close copy of a (my) .380 Browning Model 1955. .

March 23, 2014, 01:44 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Mike and Doc, At this time, I can find nothing that says it is not OK to replace those "import" grips with the normal OEM grips or copies. But either my memory is faulty or that might not have always been the case. IIRC, there was a law or ruling that banned an imported gun from being altered to a non-importable gun. As of now, that does not seem to apply to handguns. BTW, I think you will find they gained a few points by replacing the original rear sight with a drift adjustable "target" sight. Jim

March 23, 2014, 02:21 PM	#10
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	James... Yes. The altered rear sight got them some points. That is another thing that is going away. It does make sense that modifying a pistol in a way that would reduce its points below importability is a thing the feds would want folks to avoid. Here is a question: Was every pistol manufactured in the U.S. following 1968 able to achieve 75 points? Putting it a different way, "Were we banning the importation of pistols that we were manufacturing here? I worked for the federal government for 26 years and my experience tells me that the government would be that dumb. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 23, 2014, 03:04 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	" IIRC, there was a law or ruling that banned an imported gun from being altered to a non-importable gun." Jim, You may be thinking about the importation of SKS rifles that had had the bayonets removed. A lot of people were putting them back on, and ATF came out with a directive that said that putting the bayonet back constituted manufacturing a banned weapon. As far as I know, that applied only to semi-auto rifles like the SKS that would have had a fixed (non detachable) bayonet. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 23, 2014, 06:14 PM	#12
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. The law applied to only imported guns, which had to meet the points criteria, and not US-made guns (which were not imports) - American-made guns could be made any way the maker decided to market them. .

March 26, 2014, 04:05 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Mike and guys, Apologies for my sometimes faulty memory. In defense, I can only say that at almost 81, I have seen so many laws, would-be laws, repealed laws, changed laws, proposals, and sheer insanity that I sometimes get confused as to what is and what is not law today. At one point, there was a proposal to ban all imported "non-sporting" guns, including all handguns, on the grounds that once in the country, imports were being altered to a configuration that could not be imported. Handguns were certainly mentioned at the time, but perhaps the end result was the ban Mike mentioned on semi-auto rifles. At least the proposal to have the government execute "without the nonsense of a trial, anyone who ever owned a gun or any of whose ancestors ever owned a gun" was not adopted, or none of us would be around today. Jim