Using a vehicle as a shield

Eod1 · July 12, 2017, 03:31 PM

If the ONLY THING you have to shield yourself from gun fire is a car. What part of a vehicle would you use to do it. Now there is nothing special about the perps ammo, no AP, API, APIT, just FMJ. There is no ballistic blankets or Aluminum in the doors. The car is not hardened in any way and there is nothing in the trunk.

BarryLee · July 12, 2017, 03:57 PM

Well, unless this is a trick question it would seem the engine would offer the most protection.

g.willikers · July 12, 2017, 04:01 PM

Engines and wheels seem to be preferred as providing good cover at training sessions.

Eod1 · July 12, 2017, 04:27 PM

I like both your answer. No trick here.

JoeSixpack · July 12, 2017, 05:05 PM

Engine block, I suppose the rims might be ok depending on how they're made... But ya i'm definitely running for the engine block.

The body of the car is just thin sheet metal.. a 9mm will go thru both car doors.

Mike38 · July 12, 2017, 05:27 PM

Then to add to the engine, you could try "long-ways" as in putting the length of the car, front to back between you and the shooter. Even if the bullet doesn't hit the engine block, it will have to pass through two seats or two windows, or a lot more parts. Should slow it down some if not completely. Opening a door and getting behind it would be near useless. The doors on my little Dodge aren't much thicker than a beer can.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 12, 2017, 05:33 PM

One fun fact, you can skip a bullet under a car into your target. Don't assume that if you are below the visible lines of the car for cover someone can't get to you. This is in addition of shooting through a car.

TXAZ · July 12, 2017, 05:38 PM

The Engine is your best bet based on what we learned last year.

Here's some first hand feedback when we took Boomer (.50 Barrett Semi) and .308 and .223 to finish off a 1998 Volvo 940 Sedan near Austin TX last year. The 940 had taken shots from #6-8 birdshot, buckshot, .223, 308 and then Boomer. Knowing who had previously shot what and from where made this pretty easy.

Everything broke the windows, some more dramatically(Buckshot) than others.

#6-8 birdshot generally didn't penetrate the side panels from 50 yards.

Buckshot generally went through the side panels but not both sides of the car.

.223 Ball generally went through both sides of the car doors unless it hit something inside, like the window crank.

.308 Ball went thru the doors and objects inside them easily, and put nice non-penetrating dents in the engine block or components nearby, and would dent the brake rotors. It also did a pretty nice job on the wheels. The .308's also did several nice "front grill -radiator - non-structural stuff in engine compartment - thru firewall - thru car seats (front and back) thru back of trunk and out. Also went through the tires pretty easily.

.50 BMG Ball put 1-3" holes in the engine block, were generally distorted and didn't come out the other side, or busting through the aluminum wheels.
.50 BMG AP / API went through both sides of the engine and out the other side of the car except when it hit something hard like the crank, then it just bent or was wedged in tight. the API rounds had no problem busting or going thru the brake rotors.

Most of these rounds have much more energy than 9mm or .45's, so I'll let you do the math, but suffice to say, car sheet metal is much thinner today than in 1956...

Eod1 · July 12, 2017, 05:39 PM

That's why the wheel is the best bet beside the engine

Skadoosh · July 13, 2017, 01:02 PM

Engine block, brake rotors/drums are better than nothin'.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Glenn E. Meyer · July 13, 2017, 05:03 PM

I saw a 12 gauge slug not make it through a door. It hit some metal structural member and was diverted straight down into the dirt. Now, I wouldn't count on it.

armoredman · July 14, 2017, 03:24 AM

We train to shelter behind the engine block if at all possible - the rest of the car qualifies and concealment, not cover. Bullets only bounce off cars in the movies.

Don P · July 14, 2017, 10:26 AM

Where ever the engine compartment is, front or rear. As stated in previous posts the rest of the car is nowhere going to stop bullets.

ShootistPRS · July 14, 2017, 11:52 AM

Wheels, because of the brakes and other components, the engine, transmission, and differential are all more able to stop a bullet. That being said there is also a space under the car that leaves your lower leg and feet unprotected. That is another reason that wheels are good.
A car is not the best cover but in some cases concealment is as good as cover because shooters don't often shoot at what they can't see. A masonry corner wall is much better cover and readily available in some situations. What is often not said is that it is better to be mobile than stuck behind cover. For the same reason we no longer fight wars from fortifications it is better to be able to move than to hide behind a bullet proof barrier. You have limited ammo and other resources and your attacker can let you fire until you are out of ammo and then walk in and shoot you dead. Move from one cover to another using any concealment at your disposal. Learn to take the fight to the attacker when possible.

T. O'Heir · July 14, 2017, 11:59 AM

"...didn't come out the other side..." And people are constantly whining about cast/MIM parts. snicker.
Skipping a bullet under a car into a target is pretty much Hollywood too. Not exactly reliable.
"...the length of the car..." Makes very little difference. Other than the engine block and firewall there isn't much but thin sheet steel, plastic, fabric and bunch of air from one end to the other.

Model12Win · July 14, 2017, 01:33 PM

Saw a video recently where the LEO ran over a girl waving a gun around. Heck, it works! Made for sense than getting out and shooting her out of cover. They said her head went under the wheel and crushed it I believe.

raimius · July 14, 2017, 02:47 PM

Remember that bullets tend to bounce. Standing 6-8ft past the car is smart.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 14, 2017, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Skipping a bullet under a car into a target is pretty much Hollywood too. Not exactly reliable.

The point of that was that if you lay down besides a car, you are not proof against a round coming underneath it.

It was pretty reliable, BTW, we set up targets on the other side of the car and fired under the car to hit the pavement. The rounds reliably deflected into the targets.

Try it.

ShootistPRS · July 14, 2017, 03:02 PM

Bullets don't bounce. They tend to follow the angle of the surface they hit. That's why we train to stay at least four inches from masonry walls. When the bullets hit the 45 degree angled protector in front of the steel plates they hit the ground exactly in line with that angle.
Police used to train to fire a round of buckshot under a car to disable the bad guy on the other side - back when they had shotguns in the car instead of ARs.

zipspyder · July 14, 2017, 03:15 PM

Front wheel well/engine or back depending on location of engine.

chaim · July 23, 2017, 10:41 PM

Like others said, engine then wheels. Everything else is sheet metal, plastic and glass, not exactly good cover (though some is possibly good concealment if it is your only option or you have to move).

Nanuk · July 24, 2017, 08:03 AM

Start the car and drive away.

raimius · July 24, 2017, 10:28 AM

Paul Howe has an article at combatshootingandtactics.com about this. It's worth a look.

T. O'Heir · July 24, 2017, 11:43 AM

"...Bullets don't bounce..." Certainly not in any reliable direction.
Kinda like to see the look on an insurance agent's face when somebody makes a claim for body damage due to gun fire.

kenny53 · July 24, 2017, 11:50 AM

If I am going to use a car for cover I am going to make sure it's someone else's car. ;-)
I agree with about everyone else. The engine block is about the only thing that will stop a bullet. Watched a you tube video showing a 9mm going through the length of a car (back to front) and it ended up in the dashboard.

July 12, 2017, 03:31 PM	#1
Eod1 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2017 Location: Some where Posts: 126	Using a vehicle as a shield If the ONLY THING you have to shield yourself from gun fire is a car. What part of a vehicle would you use to do it. Now there is nothing special about the perps ammo, no AP, API, APIT, just FMJ. There is no ballistic blankets or Aluminum in the doors. The car is not hardened in any way and there is nothing in the trunk.

July 12, 2017, 03:57 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Well, unless this is a trick question it would seem the engine would offer the most protection. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 12, 2017, 04:01 PM	#3
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Engines and wheels seem to be preferred as providing good cover at training sessions. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 12, 2017, 05:33 PM	#7
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	One fun fact, you can skip a bullet under a car into your target. Don't assume that if you are below the visible lines of the car for cover someone can't get to you. This is in addition of shooting through a car. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 12, 2017, 05:38 PM	#8
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	The Engine is your best bet based on what we learned last year. Here's some first hand feedback when we took Boomer (.50 Barrett Semi) and .308 and .223 to finish off a 1998 Volvo 940 Sedan near Austin TX last year. The 940 had taken shots from #6-8 birdshot, buckshot, .223, 308 and then Boomer. Knowing who had previously shot what and from where made this pretty easy. Everything broke the windows, some more dramatically(Buckshot) than others. #6-8 birdshot generally didn't penetrate the side panels from 50 yards. Buckshot generally went through the side panels but not both sides of the car. .223 Ball generally went through both sides of the car doors unless it hit something inside, like the window crank. .308 Ball went thru the doors and objects inside them easily, and put nice non-penetrating dents in the engine block or components nearby, and would dent the brake rotors. It also did a pretty nice job on the wheels. The .308's also did several nice "front grill -radiator - non-structural stuff in engine compartment - thru firewall - thru car seats (front and back) thru back of trunk and out. Also went through the tires pretty easily. .50 BMG Ball put 1-3" holes in the engine block, were generally distorted and didn't come out the other side, or busting through the aluminum wheels. .50 BMG AP / API went through both sides of the engine and out the other side of the car except when it hit something hard like the crank, then it just bent or was wedged in tight. the API rounds had no problem busting or going thru the brake rotors. Most of these rounds have much more energy than 9mm or .45's, so I'll let you do the math, but suffice to say, car sheet metal is much thinner today than in 1956... __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes Last edited by TXAZ; July 12, 2017 at 06:01 PM.

July 12, 2017, 04:27 PM	#4
Eod1 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2017 Location: Some where Posts: 126	I like both your answer. No trick here.

July 12, 2017, 05:05 PM	#5
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	Engine block, I suppose the rims might be ok depending on how they're made... But ya i'm definitely running for the engine block. The body of the car is just thin sheet metal.. a 9mm will go thru both car doors.

July 12, 2017, 05:27 PM	#6
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	Then to add to the engine, you could try "long-ways" as in putting the length of the car, front to back between you and the shooter. Even if the bullet doesn't hit the engine block, it will have to pass through two seats or two windows, or a lot more parts. Should slow it down some if not completely. Opening a door and getting behind it would be near useless. The doors on my little Dodge aren't much thicker than a beer can.

July 12, 2017, 05:39 PM	#9
Eod1 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2017 Location: Some where Posts: 126	That's why the wheel is the best bet beside the engine

July 13, 2017, 01:02 PM	#10
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	Engine block, brake rotors/drums are better than nothin'. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

July 13, 2017, 05:03 PM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I saw a 12 gauge slug not make it through a door. It hit some metal structural member and was diverted straight down into the dirt. Now, I wouldn't count on it. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 14, 2017, 03:24 AM	#12
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	We train to shelter behind the engine block if at all possible - the rest of the car qualifies and concealment, not cover. Bullets only bounce off cars in the movies.

July 14, 2017, 10:26 AM	#13
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Where ever the engine compartment is, front or rear. As stated in previous posts the rest of the car is nowhere going to stop bullets. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

July 14, 2017, 11:52 AM	#14
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Wheels, because of the brakes and other components, the engine, transmission, and differential are all more able to stop a bullet. That being said there is also a space under the car that leaves your lower leg and feet unprotected. That is another reason that wheels are good. A car is not the best cover but in some cases concealment is as good as cover because shooters don't often shoot at what they can't see. A masonry corner wall is much better cover and readily available in some situations. What is often not said is that it is better to be mobile than stuck behind cover. For the same reason we no longer fight wars from fortifications it is better to be able to move than to hide behind a bullet proof barrier. You have limited ammo and other resources and your attacker can let you fire until you are out of ammo and then walk in and shoot you dead. Move from one cover to another using any concealment at your disposal. Learn to take the fight to the attacker when possible.

July 14, 2017, 11:59 AM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...didn't come out the other side..." And people are constantly whining about cast/MIM parts. snicker. Skipping a bullet under a car into a target is pretty much Hollywood too. Not exactly reliable. "...the length of the car..." Makes very little difference. Other than the engine block and firewall there isn't much but thin sheet steel, plastic, fabric and bunch of air from one end to the other. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 14, 2017, 01:33 PM	#16
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Saw a video recently where the LEO ran over a girl waving a gun around. Heck, it works! Made for sense than getting out and shooting her out of cover. They said her head went under the wheel and crushed it I believe.

July 14, 2017, 02:47 PM	#17
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Remember that bullets tend to bounce. Standing 6-8ft past the car is smart.

July 14, 2017, 03:02 PM	#19
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Bullets don't bounce. They tend to follow the angle of the surface they hit. That's why we train to stay at least four inches from masonry walls. When the bullets hit the 45 degree angled protector in front of the steel plates they hit the ground exactly in line with that angle. Police used to train to fire a round of buckshot under a car to disable the bad guy on the other side - back when they had shotguns in the car instead of ARs.

July 14, 2017, 03:15 PM	#20
zipspyder Junior member Join Date: June 13, 2017 Posts: 429	Front wheel well/engine or back depending on location of engine.

July 23, 2017, 10:41 PM	#21
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	Like others said, engine then wheels. Everything else is sheet metal, plastic and glass, not exactly good cover (though some is possibly good concealment if it is your only option or you have to move).

July 24, 2017, 08:03 AM	#22
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	Start the car and drive away. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

July 24, 2017, 10:28 AM	#23
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Paul Howe has an article at combatshootingandtactics.com about this. It's worth a look.

July 24, 2017, 11:43 AM	#24
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Bullets don't bounce..." Certainly not in any reliable direction. Kinda like to see the look on an insurance agent's face when somebody makes a claim for body damage due to gun fire. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 24, 2017, 11:50 AM	#25
kenny53 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2015 Location: My back yard Posts: 971	If I am going to use a car for cover I am going to make sure it's someone else's car. ;-) I agree with about everyone else. The engine block is about the only thing that will stop a bullet. Watched a you tube video showing a 9mm going through the length of a car (back to front) and it ended up in the dashboard.