Convenience store shootout,

HiBC · May 31, 2019, 07:38 AM

I came across this video. Its real

It pretty much deals with many of the issues we relentlessly debate here.

Sure,the amchair crtics can come out with a bunch of "Woulda,coulda,shoulda"

This shows the chaos,the OOPS,I shot him and he keeps coming,how you can nearly shoot a loved one in a melee,,etc,etc.

Serious food for thought. FWIW,I have no armchair criticism to offer. It is what it is. I think you had to be there.
https://youtu.be/1rng_zNl-vQ

(Note:Initially,I posted the wrong link,as TunnelRat discovered.This is the right one)

TunnelRat · May 31, 2019, 07:44 AM

So the video is a 10 year old shooting a gun. Am I missing something?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

HiBC · May 31, 2019, 07:48 AM

NO .I pasted the wrong link. Sorry.I'll fix it. Done

TunnelRat · May 31, 2019, 07:51 AM

Oh that one. I remember when that made the rounds some time back. I think you can find the whole thing out there.

As for Monday morning quarterbacking. That's the point of this subforum. To look at something and try and draw lessons learned, think about what might have been different options at the time, etc.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

AK103K · May 31, 2019, 09:53 AM

They have guns, and seem to know where the trigger is, but that looks like about it. I think they were lucky. Mom is also lucky her daughter didnt shoot her too during the struggle.

Having a gun and the training to use it, is a lot different than just having a gun, and feeling good about it.

Sharkbite · May 31, 2019, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Having a gun and the training to use it, is a lot different than just having a gun, and feeling good about it.

AMEN. Id rather have lots of training and use a Hi-point then no training and a custom wiz-bang pistol

**Aguila Blanca** · May 31, 2019, 12:29 PM

They did okay ... any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. They both came out unscathed, and the perp is in the hospital.

Training can only go so far. The lesson I take away from this is "Shoot to stop the threat." It looks like Mom scored one hit and then stopped shooting -- she didn't expect the perp to come back and wrestle her for the gun.

TailGator · May 31, 2019, 01:40 PM

There was no good reason for the BG to come back at them, except for perhaps a desire to eliminate witnesses. To my mind, that increased their danger considerably, as well as demonstrating the unpredictability of such encounters. Daughter firing at BG while he was grappling with her mom was certainly high risk. I have often thought that I probably wouldn't take a shot in such a situation, but she did and got away with it.

**Aguila Blanca** · May 31, 2019, 04:02 PM

The perp was a big guy (or so it appeared), and he may have spent years in prison bulking up on the taxpayers' dime. He also may have been high on some controlled substance or other. This is why we have to remember that there's no such thing as a one shot stop. Bad guys who are hopped up on drugs can absorb a lot of bullets and not seem to even feel it. This is why police are taught to shoot until the threat has been neutralized. If he's still coming, they're still shooting.

The article didn't say how many shots actually hit the guy, but it was very close range and I'm guessing it was more than two or three.

AK103K · May 31, 2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

This is why we have to remember that there's no such thing as a one shot stop. Bad guys who are hopped up on drugs can absorb a lot of bullets and not seem to even feel it. This is why police are taught to shoot until the threat has been neutralized. If he's still coming, they're still shooting.

As we all should be. Yet this seems to be a concept lost on a lot of people.

I think they were very lucky in the way things went here. Im just not a fan of the "luck and hope" school of thought when it comes to being prepared.

Rangerrich99 · May 31, 2019, 07:51 PM

Well, it was a lot of chaos, but they survived and stopped the attack, eventually, so good job.

I think I remember this one, and I believe I read that they scored three hits. One to the leg, one to the back, and one to the torso? I know, the back is part of the torso, so maybe they meant one in the front and one in the back?

I like that they seemed to communicate with each other and very quickly came to a decision to act, and then acted decisively, if not perfectly efficiently. Also, in spite of the BG coming back to continue his attack, they kept fighting and eventually got the upper hand on their attacker.

Not to be critical, but it looked like they could use some training and practice on how to control recoil impulse better for faster follow-up shots.

Nanuk · May 31, 2019, 08:35 PM

If anything it is a lesson for training, having enough gun and shot placement.

Double Naught Spy · May 31, 2019, 10:41 PM

Quote:

This shows the chaos,....

Like the, "here's the gun. You shoot him. I don't wanna shot him."

Quote:

The perp was a big guy (or so it appeared), and he may have spent years in prison bulking up on the taxpayers' dime

Tyrone Lee was not a big guy and not particular bulked up at all. He just had on some winter clothing. See :09 in the video below. I doubt he is more than 170 and doesn't appear particularly muscular at all. None of the news articles about him indicate anything about being an ex-con, only that he is suspected of 10 previous robberies.

Quote:

He also may have been high on some controlled substance or other.

He was on meth. He also apparently has mental issues.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/loca...31d61e940.html

Video here...
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10151010050674990

Lohman446 · June 1, 2019, 08:33 AM

Floyd Mayweather Jr. weighs in around 150lbs. Connor McGregor weighs in at below 170 for most fights. Don't mistake lack of bulk with strength and ability and do not mistake bulk with strength.

Guns are great for beginning to "equalize" things but they do not do so entirely. You better have some type of back-up plan and the training to institute such plan in case things go beyond gun shots. Even lethal gun injuries are likely to allow an attacker a physiological ability to inflict damage to his or her victim. The good news is gun shots to your attacker, even non-lethal, likely increase your chances in a close combat situation.

The other lesson I would take from this. If you are going to accept off body carry of a defensive weapon as the route you want to go with there are probably better choices then defensive handguns.

Double Naught Spy · June 1, 2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Floyd Mayweather Jr. weighs in around 150lbs. Connor McGregor weighs in at below 170 for most fights. Don't mistake lack of bulk with strength and ability and do not mistake bulk with strength.

No confusion. The guy just wans't particular big or bulky. He also wasn't a prize fighter, just so there isn't any confusion. He had a shotgun. He was violent. Nobody here is questioning if he was a threat.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 1, 2019, 02:14 PM

I raised the size issue, because when I watched the video he looked much bigger than the females and I was commenting that a big guy can potentially absorb a lot of lead before becoming incapacitated. I guess I was wrong on the size, but apparently he was hopped up on something and that, also, can make a person capable of absorbing a lot of lead before being neutralized as an active threat.

The argument shouldn't be about whether he was 5"-10" or 6'-0" tall or if he weighed 175 or 210. The point is that a gun isn't a magic talisman, and it's not realistic to fire one shot and expect the bad guy to either drop dead (of fright?) or run away because you have a GUN!

Leaf · June 1, 2019, 03:05 PM

I agree with Aguila Blanca but let's not fool ourselves. Keep in mind drug use or being under the influence of anything gets a disproportionate amount of credit than what it should due to the mythical powers attributed to them by "drug warriors." There are MANY reasons a human being can take a surprising amount of lead, not the least of which being the motivation level of the individual being shot.

JERRYS. · June 1, 2019, 03:12 PM

shot placement shot placement shot placement.

kenny53 · June 1, 2019, 05:04 PM

I have to wonder what caliber the lady was shooting. I didn't notice a lot of recoil. To me it recoiled just about as much as my 22 mag. No matter, just guessing on my part. I also wonder about the projectile, fmj, hollow point, soft point. I guess we will never know but gives a chance to review what we would do.

Double Naught Spy · June 1, 2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

I have to wonder what caliber the lady was shooting.

I don't know and have not been able to find out what caliber(s) the women were shooting. They fired at the suspect with 2 guns. The older woman used a stainless revolver and the woman used a blued semi-auto.

Quote:

shot placement shot placement shot placement.

He was shot in the mouth, neck, arm, back, and leg.

TXAZ · June 1, 2019, 05:50 PM

At 45.5 seconds, the daughter shoots the burglar in the back. She could have hit her mom if the robber had turned or was using a ball round that went through the bad guy then into her mom....

Something about knowing what's behind your target. And not your mom.

Double Naught Spy · June 1, 2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:

At 45.5 seconds, the daughter shoots the burglar in the back. She could have hit her mom if the robber had turned or was using a ball round that went through the bad guy then into her mom....

Something about knowing what's behind your target. And not your mom.

Oh yeah. As noted above, they won the fight, which is good. However, it was not because of superior fighting competence. They got exceptionally LUCKY several times during the fight, one of which when Tyrone Lee took the revolver from the old lady and tried to shoot her with it, but fortunately, her gun was empty.

HiBC · June 1, 2019, 06:51 PM

I'll agree the shot to the bad guys back while his body was covering the Mom had a lot of bad potential.
I'm neither praising or criticizing. I saw "fog of war" ,chaos,and things that did not go right.

Its not a "This is how you do it" video. I'll give them credit for not going totally paniced.

I have seen video of LEO's who did not perform too well with a gun pointed at them.One went into a "EEK!,you caught me naked in the shower"pose as he did a vaguely pointed mag dump at the person shooting at him. He hit nothing.The bad guy drove away.

I just thought it beneficial to see things happen fast with the realistic chaos of things not going as expected,complicated by the perp grabbing a loved one.

I think a key factor was these women stayed in the fight. They kept shooting as long as they could.

Its easy to be John Wicks in the imagination. IMO, for most of us,it might be good to find just a little humility in the vid. Bad guys don't come with the beeper on a shot timer.

They start with the moment you aren't ready,you are off balance,etc.

unclenunzie · June 1, 2019, 07:29 PM

Just stepping through the video, the daughter's pistol looks like a very very short barrel like a beretta 22lr or 25. Her hand nearly covers it entirely. The Mom's revolver is hard to get a clear view of, but one fired shot looks to me like it is a stainless 38 special DA/SA snub.

They had determination for sure, but yeah, don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped.

chaim · June 2, 2019, 12:59 PM

As others have said, they didn't do everything right, and in a way that is the point and it isn't the point (yeah, yeah).

Many might dismiss it as, "they didn't do it right, I would, nothing to see here" and that is the wrong message. They may have had a ton of training (maybe not, but you never know). When the adrenaline dumps fine coordination and all plans go out the window. Training, more training, and more training is the best way to increase our odds of doing it right. However, it is not a guarantee. I'm making a mental note to sign up for some more training this summer since it has been a while (I don't think I can fit in a trip to NH for SIG Academy, but if I can I will, if not I'll go with someone local).

Second, when the bad guy came back after being shot at (and maybe shot) it means one thing, and it is no good. At that point, you shoot and keep shooting until he turns around and leaves or otherwise stops coming at you.

Finally, carry/have enough gun. Both seemed to have small BUGs (a small auto and a J-frame or equivalent). They make terrific second guns as backup to something bigger in case your main gun fails, you are on the ground and can't get to your main gun, or your main gun is out of ammo (and in rare cases, when you just can't have anything bigger). I don't like them as main guns for this reason (you see the older woman shoot until she is out and he is still after them). They didn't even conceal the guns on their persons, they had them under the counter where they could have had a shotgun, carbine, and easily a full size .45 or .357mag or two (or three, plus extra ammo).

What I take out of it... Be sure to get training, then do it again. Practice often (not the same as #1). Have a big enough gun. Keep shooting as long as there is a threat. Have a backup plan because the one constant in this world is, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.

At least they both got out, so regardless of what we say they could have done better (or we can try to do ourselves in such a situation), it worked out well in the end. In all cases, having a gun when you need it trumps not having one.

May 31, 2019, 08:35 PM	#12
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	If anything it is a lesson for training, having enough gun and shot placement. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

June 1, 2019, 08:33 AM	#14
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Floyd Mayweather Jr. weighs in around 150lbs. Connor McGregor weighs in at below 170 for most fights. Don't mistake lack of bulk with strength and ability and do not mistake bulk with strength. Guns are great for beginning to "equalize" things but they do not do so entirely. You better have some type of back-up plan and the training to institute such plan in case things go beyond gun shots. Even lethal gun injuries are likely to allow an attacker a physiological ability to inflict damage to his or her victim. The good news is gun shots to your attacker, even non-lethal, likely increase your chances in a close combat situation. The other lesson I would take from this. If you are going to accept off body carry of a defensive weapon as the route you want to go with there are probably better choices then defensive handguns. __________________ A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)

June 1, 2019, 05:50 PM	#21
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	At 45.5 seconds, the daughter shoots the burglar in the back. She could have hit her mom if the robber had turned or was using a ball round that went through the bad guy then into her mom.... Something about knowing what's behind your target. And not your mom. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

June 1, 2019, 07:29 PM	#24
unclenunzie Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2016 Location: Texas. Posts: 140	Just stepping through the video, the daughter's pistol looks like a very very short barrel like a beretta 22lr or 25. Her hand nearly covers it entirely. The Mom's revolver is hard to get a clear view of, but one fired shot looks to me like it is a stainless 38 special DA/SA snub. They had determination for sure, but yeah, don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own! this space for rent

May 31, 2019, 07:38 AM	#1
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,289	Convenience store shootout, I came across this video. Its real It pretty much deals with many of the issues we relentlessly debate here. Sure,the amchair crtics can come out with a bunch of "Woulda,coulda,shoulda" This shows the chaos,the OOPS,I shot him and he keeps coming,how you can nearly shoot a loved one in a melee,,etc,etc. Serious food for thought. FWIW,I have no armchair criticism to offer. It is what it is. I think you had to be there. https://youtu.be/1rng_zNl-vQ (Note:Initially,I posted the wrong link,as TunnelRat discovered.This is the right one) Last edited by HiBC; May 31, 2019 at 07:51 AM.

May 31, 2019, 07:44 AM	#2
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	So the video is a 10 year old shooting a gun. Am I missing something? Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

May 31, 2019, 07:48 AM	#3
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,289	NO .I pasted the wrong link. Sorry.I'll fix it. Done

May 31, 2019, 07:51 AM	#4
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Oh that one. I remember when that made the rounds some time back. I think you can find the whole thing out there. As for Monday morning quarterbacking. That's the point of this subforum. To look at something and try and draw lessons learned, think about what might have been different options at the time, etc. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

May 31, 2019, 09:53 AM	#5
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	They have guns, and seem to know where the trigger is, but that looks like about it. I think they were lucky. Mom is also lucky her daughter didnt shoot her too during the struggle. Having a gun and the training to use it, is a lot different than just having a gun, and feeling good about it.

May 31, 2019, 12:29 PM	#7
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,476	They did okay ... any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. They both came out unscathed, and the perp is in the hospital. Training can only go so far. The lesson I take away from this is "Shoot to stop the threat." It looks like Mom scored one hit and then stopped shooting -- she didn't expect the perp to come back and wrestle her for the gun.

May 31, 2019, 01:40 PM	#8
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	There was no good reason for the BG to come back at them, except for perhaps a desire to eliminate witnesses. To my mind, that increased their danger considerably, as well as demonstrating the unpredictability of such encounters. Daughter firing at BG while he was grappling with her mom was certainly high risk. I have often thought that I probably wouldn't take a shot in such a situation, but she did and got away with it.

May 31, 2019, 04:02 PM	#9
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,476	The perp was a big guy (or so it appeared), and he may have spent years in prison bulking up on the taxpayers' dime. He also may have been high on some controlled substance or other. This is why we have to remember that there's no such thing as a one shot stop. Bad guys who are hopped up on drugs can absorb a lot of bullets and not seem to even feel it. This is why police are taught to shoot until the threat has been neutralized. If he's still coming, they're still shooting. The article didn't say how many shots actually hit the guy, but it was very close range and I'm guessing it was more than two or three.

May 31, 2019, 07:51 PM	#11
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	Well, it was a lot of chaos, but they survived and stopped the attack, eventually, so good job. I think I remember this one, and I believe I read that they scored three hits. One to the leg, one to the back, and one to the torso? I know, the back is part of the torso, so maybe they meant one in the front and one in the back? I like that they seemed to communicate with each other and very quickly came to a decision to act, and then acted decisively, if not perfectly efficiently. Also, in spite of the BG coming back to continue his attack, they kept fighting and eventually got the upper hand on their attacker. Not to be critical, but it looked like they could use some training and practice on how to control recoil impulse better for faster follow-up shots.

June 1, 2019, 02:14 PM	#16
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,476	I raised the size issue, because when I watched the video he looked much bigger than the females and I was commenting that a big guy can potentially absorb a lot of lead before becoming incapacitated. I guess I was wrong on the size, but apparently he was hopped up on something and that, also, can make a person capable of absorbing a lot of lead before being neutralized as an active threat. The argument shouldn't be about whether he was 5"-10" or 6'-0" tall or if he weighed 175 or 210. The point is that a gun isn't a magic talisman, and it's not realistic to fire one shot and expect the bad guy to either drop dead (of fright?) or run away because you have a GUN!

June 1, 2019, 03:05 PM	#17
Leaf Junior member Join Date: August 11, 2018 Posts: 198	I agree with Aguila Blanca but let's not fool ourselves. Keep in mind drug use or being under the influence of anything gets a disproportionate amount of credit than what it should due to the mythical powers attributed to them by "drug warriors." There are MANY reasons a human being can take a surprising amount of lead, not the least of which being the motivation level of the individual being shot.

June 1, 2019, 03:12 PM	#18
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	shot placement shot placement shot placement.

June 1, 2019, 05:04 PM	#19
kenny53 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2015 Location: My back yard Posts: 971	I have to wonder what caliber the lady was shooting. I didn't notice a lot of recoil. To me it recoiled just about as much as my 22 mag. No matter, just guessing on my part. I also wonder about the projectile, fmj, hollow point, soft point. I guess we will never know but gives a chance to review what we would do.

June 1, 2019, 06:51 PM	#23
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,289	I'll agree the shot to the bad guys back while his body was covering the Mom had a lot of bad potential. I'm neither praising or criticizing. I saw "fog of war" ,chaos,and things that did not go right. Its not a "This is how you do it" video. I'll give them credit for not going totally paniced. I have seen video of LEO's who did not perform too well with a gun pointed at them.One went into a "EEK!,you caught me naked in the shower"pose as he did a vaguely pointed mag dump at the person shooting at him. He hit nothing.The bad guy drove away. I just thought it beneficial to see things happen fast with the realistic chaos of things not going as expected,complicated by the perp grabbing a loved one. I think a key factor was these women stayed in the fight. They kept shooting as long as they could. Its easy to be John Wicks in the imagination. IMO, for most of us,it might be good to find just a little humility in the vid. Bad guys don't come with the beeper on a shot timer. They start with the moment you aren't ready,you are off balance,etc.

June 2, 2019, 12:59 PM	#25
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	As others have said, they didn't do everything right, and in a way that is the point and it isn't the point (yeah, yeah). Many might dismiss it as, "they didn't do it right, I would, nothing to see here" and that is the wrong message. They may have had a ton of training (maybe not, but you never know). When the adrenaline dumps fine coordination and all plans go out the window. Training, more training, and more training is the best way to increase our odds of doing it right. However, it is not a guarantee. I'm making a mental note to sign up for some more training this summer since it has been a while (I don't think I can fit in a trip to NH for SIG Academy, but if I can I will, if not I'll go with someone local). Second, when the bad guy came back after being shot at (and maybe shot) it means one thing, and it is no good. At that point, you shoot and keep shooting until he turns around and leaves or otherwise stops coming at you. Finally, carry/have enough gun. Both seemed to have small BUGs (a small auto and a J-frame or equivalent). They make terrific second guns as backup to something bigger in case your main gun fails, you are on the ground and can't get to your main gun, or your main gun is out of ammo (and in rare cases, when you just can't have anything bigger). I don't like them as main guns for this reason (you see the older woman shoot until she is out and he is still after them). They didn't even conceal the guns on their persons, they had them under the counter where they could have had a shotgun, carbine, and easily a full size .45 or .357mag or two (or three, plus extra ammo). What I take out of it... Be sure to get training, then do it again. Practice often (not the same as #1). Have a big enough gun. Keep shooting as long as there is a threat. Have a backup plan because the one constant in this world is, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong. At least they both got out, so regardless of what we say they could have done better (or we can try to do ourselves in such a situation), it worked out well in the end. In all cases, having a gun when you need it trumps not having one.