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Old May 3, 2022, 04:54 PM   #1
stinkeypete
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Tell me about C&R FFL

I am considering the C&R FFL and wonder..

Will this allow me to ship C&R handguns a method less expensive than next-day?
Would it be enough to ship any handgun at full FFL regulation level?
Under some circumstances, by US Mail…?


As time goes by, I am realizing that my primary interest is in wood and blued metal and somehow 1972 doesn’t seem that long ago now. I like the old stuff and the $30 fee seems like it would be recovered in one transfer.

Advice from those with actual experience would be appreciated.
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Last edited by stinkeypete; May 3, 2022 at 05:03 PM.
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Old May 3, 2022, 05:53 PM   #2
dogtown tom
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Quote:
stinkeypete

Will this allow me to ship C&R handguns a method less expensive than next-day?
No.
An FFL of any type does not give you discounts with any carrier.
Licensed dealers and manufacturers, bit not collectors, can mail firearms other than rifles and shotguns via USPS.



Quote:
Would it be enough to ship any handgun at full FFL regulation level?
Under some circumstances, by US Mail…?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
If you are asking should you get an 01FFL Dealer........you better intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. ATF is clear that an O1FFL is not for enhancing ones personal collection.


Quote:
As time goes by, I am realizing that my primary interest is in wood and blued metal and somehow 1972 doesn’t seem that long ago now. I like the old stuff and the $30 fee seems like it would be recovered in one transfer.
It is a bargain.
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Old May 4, 2022, 12:37 AM   #3
stinkeypete
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As a practical matter, shipping with fedex personally as a FFL (C&R)
would be cheaper than paying my local full FFL to ship through his fedex account. An individual can't ship fedex, so it would be cheaper for me if I had the FFL. My question is, does C&R enjoy the same ability to use fedex and ups. Does that also apply at the USPS. USPS would be metric crap-tons cheaper.

As I begin to downsize my collection, shipping costs begin to really mount up.

If someone has experience with the shipping details, that would be helpful to hear from. As a practical matter.
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Old May 4, 2022, 08:21 AM   #4
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Tell me about C&R FFL

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkeypete View Post
As a practical matter, shipping with fedex personally as a FFL (C&R)
would be cheaper than paying my local full FFL to ship through his fedex account. An individual can't ship fedex, so it would be cheaper for me if I had the FFL. My question is, does C&R enjoy the same ability to use fedex and ups. Does that also apply at the USPS. USPS would be metric crap-tons cheaper.

As I begin to downsize my collection, shipping costs begin to really mount up.

If someone has experience with the shipping details, that would be helpful to hear from. As a practical matter.

USPS specifically states “dealer” in their handgun regulations. A FFL-03 cannot legally ship a handgun via USPS; they are not a “dealer.” I know people have done it, but getting an FFL-03 does not change anything with USPS over a non-licensee. That being said, long guns are fine to ship USPS by anyone… just make sure it is going to a FFL and follow their rules.

UPS I believe they require Overnight Air for handguns, across the board; FFL or not. I’ve seen certain UPS hubs ship handguns anywhere from Ground to Second Day Air… but I’m pretty sure Overnight is their requirement within their handgun policy. I don’t ship long guns other than USPS… so no idea.

FedEx… their policy states FFL and you need to complete a firearms shipping agreement.

https://www.fedex.com/en-us/shipping...-firearms.html

Specifically if they consider FFL-03 in their FFL designation… I’d think they would, being it does not specifically say “dealer,” but you should find that out for yourself. Personally, I have zero desire to ship FedEx… so can’t really help you.
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Old May 4, 2022, 09:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
stinkeypete As a practical matter, shipping with fedex personally as a FFL (C&R)
would be cheaper than paying my local full FFL to ship through his fedex account.
Of course.
But what your dealer can do is ship a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun via USPS......for half the cost of FedEx Overnight or UPS Next Day.



Quote:
An individual can't ship fedex, so it would be cheaper for me if I had the FFL.
As I wrote above, having an FFL doesn't get you discounted rates with any carrier. Having an FFL doesn't mean you can ship via FedEx. You must be enrolled in their FFL shipping program.


Quote:
My question is, does C&R enjoy the same ability to use fedex and ups.
You cannot ship firearms via FedEx unless you are enrolled in their FFL shipping program.


Quote:
Does that also apply at the USPS. USPS would be metric crap-tons cheaper.
Again, answered in previous post. Licensed dealers and manufacturers, but not collectors, can mail firearms other than rifles and shotguns via USPS.




Quote:
If someone has experience with the shipping details, that would be helpful to hear from. As a practical matter.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=539529
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Old May 4, 2022, 10:09 AM   #6
stinkeypete
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Thanks. In the usps 12.1.3 regulations it defines which category of license one must have, and among others collectors don’t qualify.

12.1.1.g is explicit about c&r in that person can ship C&R, and in 12.1.2 they are exempted from shipping handguns.

It’s a bit confusing.
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I hunt, shoot bullseye, plink, reload, and tinker with firearms. I have hung out with the Cowboy Action fellas. I have no interest in carrying firearms in urban areas.

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Old May 4, 2022, 10:47 AM   #7
BornFighting88
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I have had my C&R FFL for almost 10 years now. It is so convenient being able to ship in an old as heck relic and not have to go through the dealer. The lack of transfer fee is definitely a bargain. Pays for itself in one deal.

The ATF rules are stupid level confusing. That is for sure. But if you can keep on top of them and just err on the side of caution with your deals and ventures, you will be fine. Reach out to the ATF whenever you have questions. The people there have been great with answering questions. That way you have it right from the horse's mouth and can bank on that, unless they do like they have been, and changing course mid-step.

It is a great license to have, and convenient to carry the little card with the number on it around. Plus, if you go to a place that is in a restrictive state, you can provide your shipping address on your FFL, and can have it shipped to you (which you will likely have to pay for) but you still can go through with the purchase.

Beware!! New Jerzistan does NOT recognize FFL-03. I have a bit of a story I can tell you about that, but I won't clog up the thread with my gripes. PM me if you want specifics, friend. I doubt they will even give you the time of day if you mention that you have said FFL-03.
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Old May 4, 2022, 10:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
As I wrote above, having an FFL doesn't get you discounted rates with any carrier. Having an FFL doesn't mean you can ship via FedEx. You must be enrolled in their FFL shipping program.
Which is a violation of common carrier law.
But who is going to sue them and make them comply...
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Old May 4, 2022, 11:14 AM   #9
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As always, Dogtown is spot on. An 03 is pretty useless when it comes to shipping. But remember, when selling, the buyer usually pays the shipping cost. Everyone knows it's a hassle and expensive so the buyer will know you aren't trying to rip them off.
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Old May 4, 2022, 12:17 PM   #10
stinkeypete
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I am more community minded, and have a fair few handguns to thin out.

If I can legally save the buyer $30 in shipping, that’s $30 more in his pocket that he might use some of to bid up the pistol he wants. Win/win.

There is also the hassle factor as the shops I support are 30 miles farther than the post office. I suspect I will end up doing some wrangling to work out a deal with one of them regarding lots of packages.
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Old May 6, 2022, 03:36 AM   #11
stagpanther
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Shipping companies are not controlled by any "FFL laws"--they set their own policies. The controlling principal is the law(s) governing transfers. Fedex, for example, could decide they won't do transfers at all--and still be in "compliance." IIRC, C&R is a "convenience" category and won't let you "escape/bypass" requirements for 06 and 07 license transfer requirements which govern serialized components or manufactured items that are not within the strictly defined limits of C&R.
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Old May 6, 2022, 10:03 AM   #12
FrankenMauser
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Quote:
Fedex, for example, could decide they won't do transfers at all--and still be in "compliance."
Incorrect.
According to common carrier law, Fedex is required to allow the shipment of firearms by any party.
They cannot simply "opt out" unless they opt out of being in business; or somehow manage to convince the courts that they are a contract carrier. (Which would be very difficult at this time, given their current advertising and rate schedules.)

Fedex's current policy of only shipping for FFLs is in violation of federal law.
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Old May 6, 2022, 01:54 PM   #13
stagpanther
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Incorrect.
According to common carrier law, Fedex is required to allow the shipment of firearms by any party.
I'm not sure about that.
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Old May 6, 2022, 09:27 PM   #14
FrankenMauser
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A company changing policies and an article on the internet don't mean federal law changed.
The power here lies in, "Who is going to do something about it..."
(Answer: No one.)
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Old May 7, 2022, 01:37 AM   #15
stagpanther
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A company changing policies and an article on the internet don't mean federal law changed.
The power here lies in, "Who is going to do something about it..."
That was exactly the point I was making--they can change their policies as they see fit--the over-arching reasoning being the FFL laws dictate their policies.
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Old May 7, 2022, 01:43 AM   #16
stagpanther
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Reach out to the ATF whenever you have questions. The people there have been great with answering questions.
This has been my experience as well. It may vary from state to state, but the ATF office in my state gives the benefit of the doubt to the firearms owner/business/user etc, even when they have made an unintentional infraction. I've tripped up a couple of times myself but they gave me the straight scoop and I corrected with zero consequences.
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Old May 7, 2022, 10:01 AM   #17
BornFighting88
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The rules and regulations for the 03 license…. I have only attained my license to get M98’s for projects and an ever-elusive Luger. From what I understand, just using it to have old stuff sent to you directly, where legal, is just what it is for. Not conducting any business with it.
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Old June 2, 2022, 11:43 PM   #18
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For what it's worth, if wood and steel is your thing an 03FFL is for you. I've only used mine to buy firearms a few times in almost 2 years... but it paid for itself the first use. I saved money thereafter. In addition, numrich (and I believe brownells) still gives a discount for an 03ffl.

Others have explained the shipping policy. Even if it can't do what you hoped, it's still worth having.
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Old June 3, 2022, 08:09 PM   #19
BornFighting88
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I have had a rifle shipped to me with the FFL-03, so it has already paid for itself. Everything else is gravy. Wood and steel is my preferred firearms medium. I have maybe one Tupperware blaster, the Walther P99AS. Everything else is steel and wood. Law in my house.
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