Pistol stolen from UPS shipment. Help?!

[gfen]

If this is in the wrong place, please lmk so I can put it where it belongs for best visibility, coz I am at a loss and I am looking for hivemind help.

My father passed away, my step mother is the executor of the will/estate/etc. In his will, he left several firearms to his children and grandchildren.

Approximate dates:
Shipped 8/10/23 from Naples, FL.
Received 8/16/23 in Allentown, PA.
First contact with shipping FFL 8/18/23.
Police report 8/20/23 in FL.

During UPS transit, one (a Springfield M1911 in 9mm) of them disappeared. And.. no one seems to care. I need to find out who to push to get something moved on this.

My stepmother went to the shipping FFL (in Florida), and confirmed via video tape that the pistol was sent.

My receiving FFL (in Pennsylvania) received one battered box and one less pistol. There is no video proof or anything, but its a family owned business for like 150 years and out of the shipment this was about the most uninteresting weapon to pick, there were several high value items (WW2 pieces, a Colt Python, vintage target grade .22s etc). I have zero belief they did anything wrong at all.

My step mother opened a case with the Collier County SD, who in turn said the ATF or FBI would be in touch.

This was August 20th. Since then... there's been nothing but silence except UPS saying, "Not our fault, we shipped it. Get bent, we're done."

So... who the hell calls who? Can I do anything since I'm the receiver and it never made it here? I assume my stepmother needs to push this, but to who.. the Sheriff? How the hell do I get UPS to file a claim when it obviously never made it here? Can someone contact the ATF or FBI or does the CCSD handle that?

I'm stuck in the middle, no one's being particularly helpful and while I know the pistol is gone (and let me tell you, it was the one I wanted because I know this was his centerfire 'match' gun he'd personally worked on), I would at least like to get a settlement so I can start a new one in memory.

Thank you for reading this jumbled mess.

[jmr40]

If you were able to get the SN to LE there is nothing else you can do but wait. I've had 2 guns stolen over the years. Was told by one investigator that if you could provide a SN more than 1/2 of them are eventually recovered.

But he also told me than only about 25% of the reports he has seen included a SN. Most people don't record them and have no idea.

One of mine was recovered one month later in the next county to the south of us. But it was a complicated case involving drugs. The DA in that county didn't release the gun back to me for 8 years. They waited until after the trial.


The 2nd one was recovered 700 miles away in Baltimore 15 months later. In order to get it back I would have had to spend 3 days, 2 nights on the road, drive 1400 miles and go into Baltimore to get a $250 pistol. I told them they could keep it.

I have a friend that got one back after 20+ years.

[gfen]

No, they were given the SN.

Is it normal for this much time to go by and for no one to say anything? How do I get the insurance claim filed to UPS since they're denying any wrongdoing in this?

[50 shooter]

Willing to bet that a driver took it, probably from the last hub it was at.

UPS isn't going to admit anything, if they know who it is, they'll probably just fire them and not say anything. You could try contacting all the pawn shops in the area, just to cover all bases.

[gfen]

Pawn shops in Pennsylvania can't "pawn" guns, only buy/sell and I don't think I've ever seen one with an FFL in my area.

Since I've been lead to understand that every inch of a UPS facility is under camera but the trucks are *not* I'm positive it was a driver, and last mile makes the most sense as I'm sure the box was torn up enough to be tempting at that point.

I just want to get my insurance claim at this point, I'm convinced I'll never see it again. I just can't believe its been four months and no one's said a word about it since.

[MC 1911]

Sorry you're having to deal with this. The shipper (FFL) should be the one filing the claim. I'm curious why it took 6 days to get to PA. as handguns are usually shipped next day air. Do you have tracking info?

Did by chance it go thru a hub in Atlanta? I wouldn't blame the driver though possible,things usually disappear at a hub. Good luck & don't give up keep pressure on them!

[jmr40]

Is it normal for this much time to go by and for no one to say anything?

Yes. I never heard a word until the guns were recovered. I never filed an insurance claim and would advise you not to either. If you do, and if the gun does turn up you no longer own it. The insurance company does and it will be a lot harder if not impossible to get it back.

Plus reporting stolen guns to most insurance companies sends up red flags. You could end up paying higher premiums or canceled. I have a $1000 deductible anyway, both of the ones I had stolen weren't worth $1000 combined.

Nobody is out looking for your gun. They have more important things to do. If/when the guns number is run through the system it will be flagged as stolen and you will be contacted. It is up to you to go to where the gun turns up to claim it.

Actually, I believe the person who shipped it will be contacted and they will have to claim the gun.

At any rate there is nothing else you can do. If it turns up at a crime scene, or if the SN is run through the system if it does turn up at pawn or gun shop then it becomes active again.

This is part of the reason why universal background checks are pushed. It makes it harder to sell used guns without running the SN.

I realize every state is different, but every gun shop and pawnshop in GA is required to wait 2 weeks after acquiring a gun before they can sell it. Once a week a LE officer visits and runs SN's on guns the store has bought or taken in on trade or pawn before they can be resold.

[dogtown tom]

gfen

Approximate dates:
Shipped 8/10/23 from Naples, FL.
Received 8/16/23 in Allentown, PA.
First contact with shipping FFL 8/18/23.
Police report 8/20/23 in FL.

During UPS transit, one (a Springfield M1911 in 9mm) of them disappeared. And.. no one seems to care. I need to find out who to push to get something moved on this.

Undoubtedly the shipping FFL was paid to ship the handgun. If it never arrived he is the one to file a lost/stolen firearm report to ATF and his local police department.
UPS regs allow either sender or recepient to file a claim for loss or damage.

My stepmother went to the shipping FFL (in Florida), and confirmed via video tape that the pistol was sent.

That should make it easy to file a loss claim with UPS, provided the shipping FFL complied with UPS policies on shipping firearms.

My step mother opened a case with the Collier County SD, who in turn said the ATF or FBI would be in touch.

They'll simply list it in the NCIC stolen property database.

This was August 20th. Since then... there's been nothing but silence except UPS saying, "Not our fault, we shipped it. Get bent, we're done."

If it was shipped uninsured or contrary to UPS firearms shipping policy they are correct. Your mother has a claim against the dealer who shipped it, not UPS. That dealer is on the hook for resolving the loss.

So... who the hell calls who? Can I do anything since I'm the receiver and it never made it here? I assume my stepmother needs to push this, but to who.. the Sheriff? How the hell do I get UPS to file a claim when it obviously never made it here? Can someone contact the ATF or FBI or does the CCSD handle that?

Federal law/ ATF regulations require a dealer to report the loss or theft of a firearm. It can be done by either sender or receiver, but typically the sender.
You and your mother have nothing to do with this.

I'm stuck in the middle, no one's being particularly helpful...

The shipping dealer needs a spark under his butt.

[44 AMP]

How is it that the shipping agency is not responsible? Isn't it part of the contract that the item arrives whole, intact, and undamaged??

I'm sure there are nuances I'm not aware of, but you and your stepmom are not in the direct chain, even though you are ultimately the injured parties.

Being a gun it gets a bit more complicated than "ordinary" items, but the same principles apply.

The gun shop shipped the gun via UPS. You have proof of that. UPS accepted the shipment, and then failed to deliver the item. The shipping gunshop has a claim against UPS. YOU have a claim against the shipping gunshop.

UPS is technically in the right telling you to go away, because you don't have a valid claim against them. Its not friendly but its valid. The shipping gunshop has a valid claim against UPS, not you, as you didn't ship it.

As far as not hearing anything from the police agencies involved, that's normal. None of them is interested in giving you progress reports when they have nothing to report.

In practical terms, consider the item gone, never to be seen again, and get the value of it from the people who owe it to you.

There is a tiny chance you might someday get the gun back, even if the insurance paid it off. TINY. But such things sometimes happen. A friend of mine had a rifle stolen from his car, reported it all, in proper form, and did get paid by his insurance. 10 years later, the cops recovered the gun, and notified him to come and pick it up.

He checked with his insurance, since they had paid him for it, they owned it, and his insurance company didn't want it. They had paid him, and considered the matter closed. Said if he wanted the gun, go get it from the cops. He did just that.

Good luck with your problem. The shipping gunshop owes you the value of the pistol. UPS owes the gunshop the value of the pistol. The gunshop's insurance should pay you, and then go after UPS to get their money back.

Money won't replace the value of the gun to you, but its better than a total loss.

[Mike38]

The gun shop shipped the gun via UPS. You have proof of that. UPS accepted the shipment, and then failed to deliver the item. The shipping gunshop has a claim against UPS. YOU have a claim against the shipping gunshop.

UPS is technically in the right telling you to go away, because you don't have a valid claim against them. Its not friendly but its valid. The shipping gunshop has a valid claim against UPS, not you, as you didn't ship it.

I was thinking the same thing. Technically, isn't the shipping FFL the legal owner of the gun? He took ownership of the gun to ship it, and he is the owner until the receiving FFL puts it into his books. Or am I wrong?

[gfen]

Mixed replies, thank you all, btw.

Plus reporting stolen guns to most insurance companies sends up red flags. You could end up paying higher premiums or canceled. I have a $1000 deductible anyway, both of the ones I had stolen weren't worth $1000 combined.

Pardon, with UPS not homeowner's. They're the ones who lost it. And while I don't know if it was insured explicitly, I cannot imagine it wouldn't have been done so. She knew how important these things were to my father to get to us, and as I said it was a significant number of firearms to several recipients including some real gems.

I'm curious why it took 6 days to get to PA. as handguns are usually shipped next day air. Do you have tracking info?

Over a weekend, and to be honest my times may be slightly off. It was certainly not overnight, however. I do have tracking, somewhere.

UPS regs allow either sender or recepient to file a claim for loss or damage.

That should make it easy to file a loss claim with UPS, provided the shipping FFL complied with UPS policies on shipping firearms.

If it was shipped uninsured or contrary to UPS firearms shipping policy they are correct. Your mother has a claim against the dealer who shipped it, not UPS. That dealer is on the hook for resolving the loss.

Federal law/ ATF regulations require a dealer to report the loss or theft of a firearm. It can be done by either sender or receiver, but typically the sender.

Without naming names, they seem to be a well respected name. My father, who was not the sort to suffer fools, seemed to favour them for a lot of business, as well...and I've been told he works with the local Sheriff/Police when they need assistance so I'm banking on them being on the complete up and up.

She was going to reach out "soon," but I actually asked her to hold off so I could first get the Internet's opinion on steps to take and where to apply pressure.

I will ensure to ask if the FFL has followed up with reporting it as stolen to the appropriate agencies rather than trusting the local LEO to have done so.

They'll simply list it in the NCIC stolen property database.

I broke this out seperately.. Amazing, isn't it, that we need so many gun laws, so many new gun laws, but when there's a clear cut stolen gun that likely could be tracked to a handful of people w/o much effort.. suddenly no one wants to pick up a phone.

How is it that the shipping agency is not responsible? Isn't it part of the contract that the item arrives whole, intact, and undamaged??

I'm sure there are nuances I'm not aware of, but you and your stepmom are not in the direct chain, even though you are ultimately the injured parties.

That's more or less what I expected; I'll talk to her over this weekend and we'll make the appropriate noise.

Money won't replace the value of the gun to you, but its better than a total loss.

There's a lot of personal baggage wrapped up in this, ngl, I'm actually gutted it was this one as I am convinced the way certain things were gifted that this one was the one that, while monetarily smaller, was more important as a user.

That said, if when a settlement arrives, despite not needing another firearm I plan to buy something to replace it that will either match or be 'close enough.' (it was a 9mm 1911, tbh, I've always loved Hi Powers and have two .45 1911s, now, and have been thinking about one of those Girsims or an SA35 and doctoring it up in memory).

Again, much thanks to all o fyou for weighing in.

g.

[rc]

I hate criminals. Sorry for your sentimental loss but the chance of finding the gun is small unless they can identify who may have taken the gun during shipment.

[dogtown tom]

Mike38... Technically, isn't the shipping FFL the legal owner of the gun? He took ownership of the gun to ship it, and he is the owner until the receiving FFL puts it into his books. Or am I wrong?

You confuse ownership with lawful possession. The dealer may take possession of your firearm and ship it, but you retain ownership.

Ex. You purchase a gun online and have it shipped to your local FFL. He doesn't have "ownership" at any point, but has possession. If you fail your FBI NICS check, he retains possession, but does not own the firearm.

[4V50 Gary]

UPS is notorious for stealing guns. It's my understanding it's the backroom boys who move the packages around.

What dogtown_tom says is correct. Title resides with the owner and the possessor only has temporary custody. The kiddy saying "finders keepers, losers weepers" does not carry the weight of the law.

I'd try to get local LEO or ATF involved (but they generally don't care about stolen guns).

[gfen]

The first couple weeks I held out hope it would turn up "lost," at this point I'm consigned to its fate.

My only two desires at this point are to:
1) Ensure it is on a stolen firearms database incase it should turn up again in the future.
2) Have someone's insurance pay for it.

Based on everyone's advice, my next steps are going to be to have my stepmother, who was the owner, as executor of the estate, press the Florida FFL to ensure they have reported it stolen to the ATF and to file an insurance claim with UPS (or payout on their own insurance, IDGAF where it comes from).

Not much else to it, I suppose. And hey, maybe it will turn up again one day. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Metal god]

How is it that the shipping agency is not responsible?

This answer is simple and could be wrong . It was my understanding only FedEx will knowingly ship guns . I shipped a firearm to a family member in another state and ask the local FFL how much UPS charges . My FFL in CA said he can only use FedEx to ship firearms , UPS does not ship firearms or maybe insure them I don't remember the exact reason but I'm pretty sure UPS is not the way you want to ship firearms .

That said and if true either the FFL did not state there were firearms in the package and if they did UPS would have refused to insure them .

As for the rest , nobody is actively looking for the firearm at this point . The cops might have made a few phone calls early and wrote a report but they are done with that . My guess is UPS did about the same if that . This is a if it fall into our lap we'll let you know type of things .

EDIT - I just looked and UPS does ship firearms but pistols are required to go next day air .

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/sh.../firearms.page

UPS Express Critical™ Service and UPS Returns® Services are not available for packages containing Firearms without an express contractual agreement to provide such service.

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically:

UPS Next Day Air® Early
UPS Next Day Air®
UPS Next Day Air Saver®
UPS, in its sole and unlimited discretion, may require the shipper to select a UPS Next Day Air delivery service for any package containing a Firearm Product.

This is your line of attack IMO . Finding out why it took 6 days because that's the screw up and were the liability will come from . Either The FFL shipping did not do something right or UPS failed to deliver in there own "required" time line .

[44 AMP]

Either The FFL shipping did not do something right or UPS failed to deliver in there own "required" time line.

Either way, this is a matter between the shipping FFL and UPS. You, the end user, got screwed because your gun never showed up, but the legal contract, covering the shipping and who is responsible for what is between the FFL and UPS.

[Metal god]

Agreed and why I think thats his best angle of attack . There “IS” a reason those firearms were not delivered with in 24hrs . That is the question that needs answering and will dictate what needs to be done next .

[bamaranger]

I got involved in something along these lines a few years back. The shipping carton showed up at destination, but no rifle. Without all the details of the story, the local SO and a UPS investigator began asking questions at the hub and the rifle showed up all of a sudden in the supervisor's office.

Best of luck.

[gfen]

Been three months, pretty sure that ship has sailed.

At this point, someone needs to cut me a check so I can close the book and just sort of "move on." I wish that didn't sound so heartless, but.. reality is, I suppose.