Older Shot Shells

[Bucksnort1]

A few years ago, I gave to a good friend some older (not black powder) shot shells in 20 and 12 gauge from various manufacturers (Hawthorne, Sears Roebuck and some others). I think these shells probably date back to the 60s and 70s. This morning, he told me about going to a gun store to talk about the shells.

The gunsmith told him to be careful if he wants to shoot them because some of the older powder used could cause a dangerous condition because of a delay between the time the primer is struck and the powder ignites. He said that with non-semi auto guns, the shell could explode outside the shotgun when ejected.

I've never heard this. Is there any truth to this?

[Drm50]

He’s talking about a hang fire which probably isn’t likely in 1950-60s ammo. It wouldn’t be the powder, it would be the condition of the shells. If they have been well stored they should shoot with no problem. If shell doesn’t fire in semi auto it’s not going to eject. It would have to be manually ejected as in any shotgun. Hang fire occurs when primer is ignited and faulty powder takes a lag in time before cartridge goes off.

[Blindstitch]

Worrywart.

If the shells look ok on the outside and fit the gun it's going to be shot in just shoot them. If it doesn't fire hold the gun on target for a minute and if it still doesn't go bang eject it. Inspect the shell and look for firing pin dimple. If it isn't deep you may fire it again.

If ones aren't firing I would place them aside and if there is like ammo. But realistically ammo is cheap so why chance the headache.

[Bucksnort1]

I've heard of a hang fire.

Worrywart, all of these shells are in very good condition. Shooting them would be no problem. I gave them to him with the idea his grandson may want to hold on to them as possible collector items or as decoration for his bedroom.

[dahermit]

I went hunting with a neighbor and his son in the middle, late fifties. We were hunting near Freesoil, MI for Snowshoe Hares in a ceder swamp. We did not get any Snowshoes, but my neighbor said that he had some old paper shotshells that he wanted to get rid of and decided to shoot them before we got back into the car to drive home.

They all fired, but some hang-fired so slowly that the gun could nearly be dismounted from shoulder before they fired. We concluded that it was likely a good thing that he decided to shoot them-up and not attempt to use them on game. That incident happened a few years before the shotshell evolution to plastic hulls.

I consider paper shells to not be trustworthy but will someday be sought after as curiosities/antiques. No good reason to shoot them unless you just want the gun to go "bang" whereas shooting at game and clays should at least have modern, fresh ammunition.

[Blindstitch]

Bucksnort1 you may want to check out that gunstore and see the Gunsmith. Somedays I really loath visiting gunshops without ear protection. When buying the last shotgun I bought last year I was looking at several models and the guy behind the counter hands me the one I asked for and goes on blabbering the specs to me like he was reading them off a cue card. Then he said blah blah blah super black eagle.... and went on raving about it like he used one to kill the mythological 30 point bald mallard duck on display in the Smithsonian.

It was pretty apparent that this guy had no clue and maybe never shot a firearm of any kind.

Your friend might have met that guy when talking about the shells.

[Pahoo]

They all fired, but some hang-fired so slowly that the gun could nearly be dismounted from shoulder before they fired.

Back in the 50's, when I was dumber than a Day-Old boot, we shot a bunch of old shotshells and the results were rather amusing. First time I saw buckshot, roll out the end of a barrel. The sound varied and similar to popping you finger at the mouth of a bottle. Lately when given some older shells that are suspect, I just cut them up and discard. .....

Now then, the question is; will they fire, outside a breech? I doubt it but one experiment that I'll pass on. .....

Be Safe !!!

[FITASC]

A friend had a hangfire with new ammo (Winchester) luckily he was holding his Belgian Browning pointed downrange. However he was holding it loosely when it went off and it jumped from his hands and landed on the concrete messing up his VERY nice stock. Took it back to his gunsmith in England for repair.
ALWAYS wait after you experience a click instead of a bang - 30 seconds or so should be long enough

[Grant 14]

Growing up in the 50s with my father being a gunsmith I must have been told a thousand times that if a gun didnt fire when you pulled the trigger, then count to 60 with the gun pointed down before opening the breach. My brothers and I shot up lots of old ammo and I dont recall ever actually having a hang fire. Any missfires were usually a mechanical problem with the gun. I am sure hang fires happen but I suspect they are very rare. Just another opinion. Grant.

[stuckinthe60s]

i get a kick out of how people wait, unload, then put the bad shell in their pockets.

[Pahoo]

Growing up in the 50s with my father being a gunsmith I must have been told a thousand times that if a gun didn't fire when you pulled the trigger, then count to 60 with the gun pointed down before opening the breach.

This is basically what we teach, during our Hunter Safety classes at our M/L station. For obvious reasons M/L's are very common. ….

My brothers and I shot up lots of old ammo and I don't recall ever actually having a hang fire.

That's because you had a great coach to keep you from doing dumb stuff some Vintage people d

Be Safe !!!

[44 AMP]

Hang fires were much more common in the early 20th century. Still fairly rare, but much more common than today, with the main improvement starting in the later 30s. But back then hang fires and complete misfires were a fact of life.

The main reason the DA semi auto was developed was to provide a "second strike" capability, or so it was advertised at the time...

Though very rare now a hangfire is ALWAYS possible when the round doesn't fire normally. Today, most often if a centerfire doesn't go off normally, its usually a complete dud. BUT its still smart to wait, and keep the gun pointed down range, and closed for at least 10 sec and better if you do a slow count to 30. This used to be taught as part of hunter safety training. Don't they do that, anymore???

Some of the shooting I did growing up was paper shotshells, some of them my grandfather had loaded in the 30s. All were in good, clean condition, none ever waterlogged and swollen, and while I never had a hangfire with any of them we always knew it was possible.

If you've got older shells, especially the old paper ones, and you're not going to keep them as collectibles, shoot them up, under safe, controlled conditions. Or safely dispose of them, or give them to someone who will.

[cdoc42]

Coincidentally, this forum seems appropriate for to share what I did with "old" shotgun shells this evening.

I have a box of 25 Winchester 12-Ga Paper shells that were handloaded by a deceased friend, but the box has no information regarding what's in them, so I figured I'd just disassemble them. There was nothing spectacular about the contents, just a red pc wad, powder and shot.

What WAS interesting was a box of Remington paper shells in a "Kleanbore" box. All of them were paper cases but one was ribbed and looked like it had a plastic case. Opening it up,I found it might have had a very thin plastic cover, but it was definitely all paper underneath.

I discovered a way to open them that is immensely easier than sawing off the top. I used a standard electrical wire cutter (used for gauges 14-18 and smaller) to clip the lip of the crimp in a circular fashion while keeping one other finger on the top. Gently prying the top off with a needlenose pliers allowed me to dump the shot much more quickly than sawing the hull.

The "Kleanbore" shells were 20Ga, with "Scatterload" stamped on a few, while others just said "Kleanbore." All identified the load on a small disc covering the shot at the crimp. The cases are low brass, with "UMC-Remington" scrolled around the brass base.
The disc states they are 2-1/4 dr equiv, #8 shot, 7/8-oz load. I tried to fire one off but absolutely nothing happened, hence my decision to dismantle them.

The "Scatterload" revealed 117gr of shot under the crimp, over a paper wad about 0.04"
thick. Following that was 125gr of shot over another 0.04" thick wad and finally 125gr of shot, for a total of 369gr - a bit shy of 7/8-oz but I may have lost some in dumping.
Then came 2 paper wads, each about 0.18" thick and a third wad about 0.11" thick, then the powder, which I forgot to weigh. The primer looked corroded even though everything inside was dry as a bone. The initial shot was shiny but as I got to the last 25% the shot had a dull gray appearance. I actually had the impression the shot was 3 different sizes but it measured about 0.08" in diameter.

The "plastic" covered Kleanbore round was also identified by a small paper disc at the crimp which said 2-1/4 dr equiv, 7/8-oz and #8 shot.

Removing the crimp as I did above, the first thing different was the entire load of shot was there -weighed 388gr, a few shots more than 382.7gr for 7/8-oz. Under the shot was 2 wads each measuring 0.25", followed by 3 over the powder paper discs totaling 0.14" thick. The powder weighed 16.6gr and again, the primer looked corroded.
Everything was dry and easily and smoothly removed.

What a difference from today's simple plastic AA hull, a plastic wad holding the shot over the powder charge!!

[eastbank]

as a young hunter in the late 50,early 60,s, and on a very limited income and bought most of my ammo at farm sales and auctions, most were paper and most fired with out any problems at all, some were swolen and would not fit and discarded. some were very old when bought.