Black widow gets hard to cock?

Prof Young · February 15, 2019, 12:45 PM

I have an NAA black widow with a two inch barrel and two cylinders; one for 22 LR and one for 22 mag.

The strange problem I have is with the 22LR cylinder. With no ammo in it, it cocks just fine, every chamber all day long. I load it up with just about any (haven't tried them all) 22LR bullets and while the first one shoots fine, I can't get through all five without the thing becoming very hard to cock. I mean very hard!!!! After I've shot all five chambers and the empties are sill in the cylinder . . . it runs just fine again. What the heck is going on? When it hangs up it's not always on the same chamber.

The 22 mag cylinder runs like clock work. No problems ever. I can load 22LR in the mag cylinder and they run just fine too.

Help?!?!?!?!

Life is good.
Prof Young

polyphemus · February 15, 2019, 01:39 PM

It is not a safe practice to fire .22LR in .22Mag.cylinder or chamber.

T. O'Heir · February 15, 2019, 02:24 PM

"...load 22LR in the mag cylinder..." Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The Mag is entirely different dimensionally, including the bullet diameter.
"...becoming very hard to cock..." Literally, something is loose. Mostly a WHAG, but it's likely the cylinder itself is moving forward or backward. You should be able to see where it's rubbing. Might need to go back to NAA.

**Unclenick** · February 15, 2019, 03:47 PM

I wouldn't fret too much about shooting 22 LR in the Magnum cylinder from a safety standpoint. It is true that the LR case is almost 0.020" narrower because the Magnum has a bullet that is both about 0.003" wider and has no heel. By the same token, that makes the throat loose for an LR and the bullet jump long, so the pressure tends to be low when the LR is fired in the Magnum chamber and the main issue to concern yourself with is lead splatter building up in the mag chamber that needs to be cleaned for best accuracy and function with the longer round. Chambers for both cartridges go from case to bore with a taper rather than a step, that being a 30° half-angle for the .22 LR and a 15° half-angle for the .22 Magnum, so the loose-fitting .22 LR bullets in the Magnum chamber don't have a sharp edge to scrape against on their way into the freebore of the throat. Low pressure and inferior accuracy are to be expected from the .22 LR in the big chamber.

A couple of things can be looked at as to the cause of your sticking issue. When the gun fires, the case backs up. In most centerfire revolvers, the primer backs out on firing and then is reseated when the solid case head subsequently backs up into the breech face. After that, the empty can fall forward again and rattle loose in the chamber. In a rimfire, the case backs up and if the headspace is long, the sides of the case jsut forward of the rim can expand enough that it doesn't fall loosely into the cylinder again. That will cause it to drag on the recoil shield (the revolver's breech face).

You can measure the headspace to compare to rim thickness several ways, but the simplest thing to do is to chamber one round and fire it and, before cocking the gun, point it down and then hold it up to the sky or other light source and see if the head is still against the breech face. You could also try to slide a feeler gauge of one or two thousandths in between the case head and breech face if you have one narrow enough to slip in when the ammo has not yet been fired.

If that problem is happening, expect a caliper to show you the case is fatter just in front of the rim than in the middle of the case walls.

Another thing that can happen, if the gun has very rough chambers (I would not expect that from NAA) it is conceivable the case sticks to the chamber on firing and the middle of the head swells, causing the same jam-up. In that case, the side walls would be pretty uniform, but the back of the head would be domed. If you have a .22 LR rim thickness gauge, it would register the rim as being thicker if that happened.

If the chamber diameters are loose but the throat is not, you might get extra powder blown back between the case and chamber causing the brass to stick to the rear. That can cause it to drag on the recoil shield, too.

Finally, check the barrel/cylinder gap of both cylinders. Make sure pushing the cylinder forward does not cause the face of it to drag on the back end of the barrel. This causes scratch marks on the cylinder face you can see if it is happening. Having a case push back against the recoil shield may also push the cylinder forward (via the widened area in front of the rim) and if that causes the face of the cylinder to scrape against the back of the barrel, the drag just gets worse.

The solution to all the above is likely to be cause for getting the manufacturer involved. I always resent the cost of sending a gun to the factory, but sometimes it is worth it. Talk to the factory and describe what is happening. They will have seen it before.

Prof Young · February 18, 2019, 05:00 PM

Thanks to all. Unclenick I feel like I've been in the gun smith classroom everytime I read one of your posts. Great stuff and thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

Will take some measurements, give NAA a call and let you all know what I figure out.

Oh, and I only did the 22LR in the mag cylinder once as I was trying figure out what was wrong.

Life is good.
Prof Young

Prof Young · March 10, 2019, 09:13 PM

My Black widow is at NAA for repair. I called, they let me talk to a gun smith, and then sent me a prepaid fed ex label to ship it to them.
We'll see how it runs when I get it back. I imagine it will be fine. It is a touch surprising to have a problem with NAA. Their reputation is really good.

Life is good.
Prof young

cw308 · March 11, 2019, 08:17 AM

I'm sure they will take care of the problem . Revolvers , could be a build up of leal at the cone , your ejection post could have backed out alittle or timing .Anyway it's in good hands .

Prof Young · March 18, 2019, 02:27 PM

Got my Blackwidow back from NAA. Pretty good turn around time. Less than two weeks. Thing runs like a champ now. Love shooting the 22LR through it. Fun gun. Mostly got it for the fun of shooting it.

Life is good.
Prof Young

**4V50 Gary** · March 18, 2019, 03:31 PM

What did they do?

Prof Young · April 4, 2019, 02:22 PM

Gary, I'm not sure what they did. Gun Smith said they would probably re-fit the cylinders or something like that and he wanted me to send both, so there may have been some other things worked on. If I still have the paper work they sent along I'll take a look and try to let you know.

Life is good.
Prof Young

February 15, 2019, 12:45 PM	#1
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Black widow gets hard to cock? I have an NAA black widow with a two inch barrel and two cylinders; one for 22 LR and one for 22 mag. The strange problem I have is with the 22LR cylinder. With no ammo in it, it cocks just fine, every chamber all day long. I load it up with just about any (haven't tried them all) 22LR bullets and while the first one shoots fine, I can't get through all five without the thing becoming very hard to cock. I mean very hard!!!! After I've shot all five chambers and the empties are sill in the cylinder . . . it runs just fine again. What the heck is going on? When it hangs up it's not always on the same chamber. The 22 mag cylinder runs like clock work. No problems ever. I can load 22LR in the mag cylinder and they run just fine too. Help?!?!?!?! Life is good. Prof Young

February 15, 2019, 02:24 PM	#3
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...load 22LR in the mag cylinder..." Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The Mag is entirely different dimensionally, including the bullet diameter. "...becoming very hard to cock..." Literally, something is loose. Mostly a WHAG, but it's likely the cylinder itself is moving forward or backward. You should be able to see where it's rubbing. Might need to go back to NAA. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 15, 2019, 03:47 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I wouldn't fret too much about shooting 22 LR in the Magnum cylinder from a safety standpoint. It is true that the LR case is almost 0.020" narrower because the Magnum has a bullet that is both about 0.003" wider and has no heel. By the same token, that makes the throat loose for an LR and the bullet jump long, so the pressure tends to be low when the LR is fired in the Magnum chamber and the main issue to concern yourself with is lead splatter building up in the mag chamber that needs to be cleaned for best accuracy and function with the longer round. Chambers for both cartridges go from case to bore with a taper rather than a step, that being a 30° half-angle for the .22 LR and a 15° half-angle for the .22 Magnum, so the loose-fitting .22 LR bullets in the Magnum chamber don't have a sharp edge to scrape against on their way into the freebore of the throat. Low pressure and inferior accuracy are to be expected from the .22 LR in the big chamber. A couple of things can be looked at as to the cause of your sticking issue. When the gun fires, the case backs up. In most centerfire revolvers, the primer backs out on firing and then is reseated when the solid case head subsequently backs up into the breech face. After that, the empty can fall forward again and rattle loose in the chamber. In a rimfire, the case backs up and if the headspace is long, the sides of the case jsut forward of the rim can expand enough that it doesn't fall loosely into the cylinder again. That will cause it to drag on the recoil shield (the revolver's breech face). You can measure the headspace to compare to rim thickness several ways, but the simplest thing to do is to chamber one round and fire it and, before cocking the gun, point it down and then hold it up to the sky or other light source and see if the head is still against the breech face. You could also try to slide a feeler gauge of one or two thousandths in between the case head and breech face if you have one narrow enough to slip in when the ammo has not yet been fired. If that problem is happening, expect a caliper to show you the case is fatter just in front of the rim than in the middle of the case walls. Another thing that can happen, if the gun has very rough chambers (I would not expect that from NAA) it is conceivable the case sticks to the chamber on firing and the middle of the head swells, causing the same jam-up. In that case, the side walls would be pretty uniform, but the back of the head would be domed. If you have a .22 LR rim thickness gauge, it would register the rim as being thicker if that happened. If the chamber diameters are loose but the throat is not, you might get extra powder blown back between the case and chamber causing the brass to stick to the rear. That can cause it to drag on the recoil shield, too. Finally, check the barrel/cylinder gap of both cylinders. Make sure pushing the cylinder forward does not cause the face of it to drag on the back end of the barrel. This causes scratch marks on the cylinder face you can see if it is happening. Having a case push back against the recoil shield may also push the cylinder forward (via the widened area in front of the rim) and if that causes the face of the cylinder to scrape against the back of the barrel, the drag just gets worse. The solution to all the above is likely to be cause for getting the manufacturer involved. I always resent the cost of sending a gun to the factory, but sometimes it is worth it. Talk to the factory and describe what is happening. They will have seen it before. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 18, 2019, 05:00 PM	#5
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Thanks to all, especially Unclenick! Thanks to all. Unclenick I feel like I've been in the gun smith classroom everytime I read one of your posts. Great stuff and thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Will take some measurements, give NAA a call and let you all know what I figure out. Oh, and I only did the 22LR in the mag cylinder once as I was trying figure out what was wrong. Life is good. Prof Young

March 10, 2019, 09:13 PM	#6
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	By way of follow up . . . My Black widow is at NAA for repair. I called, they let me talk to a gun smith, and then sent me a prepaid fed ex label to ship it to them. We'll see how it runs when I get it back. I imagine it will be fine. It is a touch surprising to have a problem with NAA. Their reputation is really good. Life is good. Prof young

February 15, 2019, 01:39 PM	#2
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	It is not a safe practice to fire .22LR in .22Mag.cylinder or chamber.

March 11, 2019, 08:17 AM	#7
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I'm sure they will take care of the problem . Revolvers , could be a build up of leal at the cone , your ejection post could have backed out alittle or timing .Anyway it's in good hands .

March 18, 2019, 02:27 PM	#8
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Got it back and . . . Got my Blackwidow back from NAA. Pretty good turn around time. Less than two weeks. Thing runs like a champ now. Love shooting the 22LR through it. Fun gun. Mostly got it for the fun of shooting it. Life is good. Prof Young

March 18, 2019, 03:31 PM	#9
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	What did they do? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 4, 2019, 02:22 PM	#10
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Gary . . . I'm not sure Gary, I'm not sure what they did. Gun Smith said they would probably re-fit the cylinders or something like that and he wanted me to send both, so there may have been some other things worked on. If I still have the paper work they sent along I'll take a look and try to let you know. Life is good. Prof Young