Project pictures.....

bswiv · June 4, 2007, 07:56 PM

The pictures are of a recently finished project. What you're seeing, not the best pictures I know, is a Ruger Red Label 20 ga converted to 45/70. It's regulated for 300 grain Remington Factory loads. The targets are my first shooting efforts with it. We used very light reloads but will work up to something close to the loads it is actually regulated for.

Thought I should psot because a number of you were very kind, about 6months ago, when this got started and answered a lot of my ignorant questions. Others of you were kind enough to answer some questions about light 45/70 loads.

Though you'd like to see that your help was put to good use.........

Thank you.........

fisherman66 · June 4, 2007, 07:59 PM

Quote:

What you're seeing, not the best pictures I know

I've seen worse

bswiv · June 4, 2007, 08:01 PM

Can you actually see them?

It looks like I screwed something up and they did not post? Or is it my computer that wont let me see my own posting?

fisherman66 · June 4, 2007, 08:03 PM

I'm sorry, I can't see them. Have you uploaded them?

bswiv · June 4, 2007, 08:08 PM

fisherman66 · June 4, 2007, 08:10 PM

Beautiful!

What kind of work did the conversion involve?

bswiv · June 4, 2007, 08:21 PM

The barrels, which were messed up before I bought it by someone trying to do a aftermarket choke job, were cut off at the mono-block. The mono-block was reamed out and a new set of Douglas barrels were set in place. The ejectors were welded up and finished, the hanger resoldered and the new rib set in place.

The barrels were turned in such a way that the existing wood could be reused without alteration. They are 22 inches long.

Some milling of the rib had to be done to get it ready for the scope mounts. The mounts are from A.R.M.S. and are their very low 30mm rings that have a mounting screw in the bottom of the ring that goes directly into the rib. It's very sturdy and keeps the Red Dot about as low on the bore as possible.

The rib is also milled for regular weaver rings should a standard style scope ever be wanted.

It weighs about 8 1/2 pounds. It's for hunting hogs here in Florida.
The hard part was the regulation. You can see by the targets that he did a good job of that.

fisherman66 · June 4, 2007, 08:28 PM

That's amazing that they both shoot the same POI. You are not kidding, you have a great smith.

smiljko · June 5, 2007, 10:35 AM

Very nice work

. How much did you pay?

Jim Watson · June 5, 2007, 11:25 AM

I think that it is great that you plunged ahead with the project.

Who did the work? As I said in previous discussion Red Label to double rifle was a catalog job by Paul Jaeger in Pennsylvania about 25 years ago.

bswiv · June 5, 2007, 04:28 PM

The work was done by Robert Hynden, Lamoni, Iowa.

The cost of buying the gun in it's original condition, the amunition to accomplish the regulation, the scope and rings, and a few other small things like shipping and the cost to have a FFL holder recieve it on this end, came to somewhere around $1600. The actual work cost another $3000 or so.

It's WAY more than I have ever spent on a gun. In fact it cost more than all the other guns I own. But when I first got my hands on it.....and when those first two shots went where they did...........well I'm happy.

Can hardly wait for hunting season so I can try it on a few wild hogs. That's what it's for, hunting hogs on foot in our thick swamps. I've got a old .35 Rem that has worked fine but as I've pased the half century mark I figured I had better enjoy a "just because I want it" rifle once in my life before it gets to late.

Slopemeno · June 5, 2007, 05:58 PM

How does it handle?

Awesome work. Your 'smith really knows what he's doing. Did he make new firing pins and bushings, by the way? A Red Label based double rifle is something Ruger should have done years ago.

All things considered the price isnt that bad.

bswiv · June 5, 2007, 06:40 PM

It handels well. Balances just in front of the hinge.

The pins did not need to be replaced. They may have needed to be replaced if we had decided to push the loads but as the decision was made to stick with loads that function safely in the Trapdoor it was not necessary. No sign of primers wanting to flow back around the pins.

We could not determin to our satisfaction that the action was up to hotter loads, as it is a shotgun action. It most likely is but we just could not see sufficent up side to testing the limits. And for that matter a 300 grain load at about 1800 fps is more than sufficent for the short ranges we hunt hogs at.

I heard that Ruger actually made a couple of research guns on the Red Label action, one in 45/70 and one in .375 H&H. If that's true, about the .375 H&H, then the action surely must be strong enough for much more than the Trapdoor loads, but as I said we were not able to verify to our satisfaction.

It was a real learning experence. I asked a ton of questions, probably was a pest at times. Really wish I could have been right there looking over his shoulder while he did it.

The whole thing gave me a greater appreciation for those of you who have the ability and training.

don_hamer · June 6, 2007, 12:04 PM

They have really nice details!

Slopemeno · June 6, 2007, 08:16 PM

FWIW the .375 was in Gun Digest one year, probably 1980 or thereabout...I probably have it around here somewhere.

Jim Watson · June 6, 2007, 10:23 PM

I recall Jaeger would rebarrel the Red Label to 9.3x74R, so it ought to hold any sensible .45-70 load; surely the SAAMI non-trapdoor 28,000 CUP. I don't recall a .375 but maybe it is in the article referred to by Slope.

bswiv · June 7, 2007, 05:24 AM

Mr. Watson:

The gun was "proofed" by pulling the bullet from a few of the 300 grain factory loads and replacing them with 350 grain bullets. That should have produced at least a 15 to 20 percent increase in pressure from the factory loads. Seems right......

Gun and cases showed no signs of pressure.

It might actually be safe with loads for the Marlin type actions but at this point I'd sure hate to mess it up for the slight gain in performance.

Seems like a prudent course of action??

Clark · June 7, 2007, 09:50 AM

Unique, beautiful, functional, and accurate.
How could you make that gun better?
Is there any way it was previously owned by a President?

srtrax · June 7, 2007, 10:12 AM

Very nicley done, and the lines of the rifle kept very clean. Got ya a real winner there!

fisherman66 · June 7, 2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Is there any way it was previously owned by a President?

Or vice president?

Harry Bonar · June 7, 2007, 09:05 PM

Sir:
That's the best work I've seen - you are to be congratulated in the very highest order! VERY, VERY SKILLFUL WORK!
Harry B.

Clark · June 15, 2007, 12:08 PM

Here is a thread at another forum that links to this one.
Interestingly, Jim Wisner has done this type of conversion.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/739101486

Jim Watson · June 15, 2007, 12:54 PM

Arggh. I can't get on at Accurate Reloading. Been a long time, I had to re-register and am not yet approved to post.

They go into a lot of foo-fraw about action strength that I do not think is a real worry. In the first place, a good shotgun does not carry all the load on the hinge pin like a H&R single shot. It has locking lugs that drop into recesses in the action. You never notice because they swing into place along an arc and are stressed lengthwise. In the second place, a 20 ga shotshell has over twice the casehead area of a .45-70 so even a top .45-70 SAAMI load is not treading very hard on the safety margin, when figured as force against the breechface. A lot of study goes into locking bolts, what Greener called "holding down bolts" but the load on them is not really very great. Greener said that one of his guns could be fired with the bolts removed, the action held shut with "a turn of common cord."

Greener attached a lot of importance to his crossbolt extension. Gough Thomas said it did not add a whole lot, and HE was a mechanical engineer.

June 4, 2007, 07:56 PM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Project pictures..... The pictures are of a recently finished project. What you're seeing, not the best pictures I know, is a Ruger Red Label 20 ga converted to 45/70. It's regulated for 300 grain Remington Factory loads. The targets are my first shooting efforts with it. We used very light reloads but will work up to something close to the loads it is actually regulated for. Thought I should psot because a number of you were very kind, about 6months ago, when this got started and answered a lot of my ignorant questions. Others of you were kind enough to answer some questions about light 45/70 loads. Though you'd like to see that your help was put to good use......... Thank you.........

June 4, 2007, 08:03 PM	#4
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,687	I'm sorry, I can't see them. Have you uploaded them? __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

June 4, 2007, 08:10 PM	#6
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,687	Beautiful! What kind of work did the conversion involve? __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

June 4, 2007, 08:28 PM	#8
fisherman66 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: The Woodlands TX Posts: 4,687	That's amazing that they both shoot the same POI. You are not kidding, you have a great smith. __________________ la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!

June 5, 2007, 10:35 AM	#9
smiljko Member Join Date: April 16, 2005 Location: Croatia Posts: 85	Very nice work. How much did you pay?

June 4, 2007, 08:01 PM	#3
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Can you actually see them? It looks like I screwed something up and they did not post? Or is it my computer that wont let me see my own posting?

June 4, 2007, 08:08 PM	#5
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081

June 4, 2007, 08:21 PM	#7
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	The barrels, which were messed up before I bought it by someone trying to do a aftermarket choke job, were cut off at the mono-block. The mono-block was reamed out and a new set of Douglas barrels were set in place. The ejectors were welded up and finished, the hanger resoldered and the new rib set in place. The barrels were turned in such a way that the existing wood could be reused without alteration. They are 22 inches long. Some milling of the rib had to be done to get it ready for the scope mounts. The mounts are from A.R.M.S. and are their very low 30mm rings that have a mounting screw in the bottom of the ring that goes directly into the rib. It's very sturdy and keeps the Red Dot about as low on the bore as possible. The rib is also milled for regular weaver rings should a standard style scope ever be wanted. It weighs about 8 1/2 pounds. It's for hunting hogs here in Florida. The hard part was the regulation. You can see by the targets that he did a good job of that.

June 5, 2007, 11:25 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	I think that it is great that you plunged ahead with the project. Who did the work? As I said in previous discussion Red Label to double rifle was a catalog job by Paul Jaeger in Pennsylvania about 25 years ago.

June 5, 2007, 04:28 PM	#11
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	The work was done by Robert Hynden, Lamoni, Iowa. The cost of buying the gun in it's original condition, the amunition to accomplish the regulation, the scope and rings, and a few other small things like shipping and the cost to have a FFL holder recieve it on this end, came to somewhere around $1600. The actual work cost another $3000 or so. It's WAY more than I have ever spent on a gun. In fact it cost more than all the other guns I own. But when I first got my hands on it.....and when those first two shots went where they did...........well I'm happy. Can hardly wait for hunting season so I can try it on a few wild hogs. That's what it's for, hunting hogs on foot in our thick swamps. I've got a old .35 Rem that has worked fine but as I've pased the half century mark I figured I had better enjoy a "just because I want it" rifle once in my life before it gets to late.

June 5, 2007, 05:58 PM	#12
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	How does it handle? Awesome work. Your 'smith really knows what he's doing. Did he make new firing pins and bushings, by the way? A Red Label based double rifle is something Ruger should have done years ago. All things considered the price isnt that bad.

June 5, 2007, 06:40 PM	#13
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	It handels well. Balances just in front of the hinge. The pins did not need to be replaced. They may have needed to be replaced if we had decided to push the loads but as the decision was made to stick with loads that function safely in the Trapdoor it was not necessary. No sign of primers wanting to flow back around the pins. We could not determin to our satisfaction that the action was up to hotter loads, as it is a shotgun action. It most likely is but we just could not see sufficent up side to testing the limits. And for that matter a 300 grain load at about 1800 fps is more than sufficent for the short ranges we hunt hogs at. I heard that Ruger actually made a couple of research guns on the Red Label action, one in 45/70 and one in .375 H&H. If that's true, about the .375 H&H, then the action surely must be strong enough for much more than the Trapdoor loads, but as I said we were not able to verify to our satisfaction. It was a real learning experence. I asked a ton of questions, probably was a pest at times. Really wish I could have been right there looking over his shoulder while he did it. The whole thing gave me a greater appreciation for those of you who have the ability and training.

June 6, 2007, 12:04 PM	#14
don_hamer Member Join Date: May 23, 2007 Posts: 29	They have really nice details! __________________ Don Hamer Spring Branch, Texas Lifetime NRA Members, Southern High Rollers http://www.thefirearmdirectory.com - Add Your Firearm/Gun/Weapons Website

June 6, 2007, 08:16 PM	#15
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	FWIW the .375 was in Gun Digest one year, probably 1980 or thereabout...I probably have it around here somewhere.

June 6, 2007, 10:23 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	I recall Jaeger would rebarrel the Red Label to 9.3x74R, so it ought to hold any sensible .45-70 load; surely the SAAMI non-trapdoor 28,000 CUP. I don't recall a .375 but maybe it is in the article referred to by Slope.

June 7, 2007, 05:24 AM	#17
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Mr. Watson: The gun was "proofed" by pulling the bullet from a few of the 300 grain factory loads and replacing them with 350 grain bullets. That should have produced at least a 15 to 20 percent increase in pressure from the factory loads. Seems right...... Gun and cases showed no signs of pressure. It might actually be safe with loads for the Marlin type actions but at this point I'd sure hate to mess it up for the slight gain in performance. Seems like a prudent course of action??

June 7, 2007, 09:50 AM	#18
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Unique, beautiful, functional, and accurate. How could you make that gun better? Is there any way it was previously owned by a President?

June 7, 2007, 10:12 AM	#19
srtrax Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2007 Location: GREEN COUNTRY,OKLAHOMA Posts: 517	Very nicley done, and the lines of the rifle kept very clean. Got ya a real winner there! __________________ Pro Gun = Vote

June 7, 2007, 09:05 PM	#21
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	double rifle Sir: That's the best work I've seen - you are to be congratulated in the very highest order! VERY, VERY SKILLFUL WORK! Harry B.

June 15, 2007, 12:08 PM	#22
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Here is a thread at another forum that links to this one. Interestingly, Jim Wisner has done this type of conversion. http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/739101486

June 15, 2007, 12:54 PM	#23
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	Arggh. I can't get on at Accurate Reloading. Been a long time, I had to re-register and am not yet approved to post. They go into a lot of foo-fraw about action strength that I do not think is a real worry. In the first place, a good shotgun does not carry all the load on the hinge pin like a H&R single shot. It has locking lugs that drop into recesses in the action. You never notice because they swing into place along an arc and are stressed lengthwise. In the second place, a 20 ga shotshell has over twice the casehead area of a .45-70 so even a top .45-70 SAAMI load is not treading very hard on the safety margin, when figured as force against the breechface. A lot of study goes into locking bolts, what Greener called "holding down bolts" but the load on them is not really very great. Greener said that one of his guns could be fired with the bolts removed, the action held shut with "a turn of common cord." Greener attached a lot of importance to his crossbolt extension. Gough Thomas said it did not add a whole lot, and HE was a mechanical engineer.